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User talk:Chris Day/Archive 4

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Chris' Talk Page

I am an editor in the biology workgroup | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Current talk page (94,011)


Useful links on Citizendium

Re adding "Appendixes to Main Article" to Unused Pages

Chris: I would like to move the appendexes of Life/Draft to a subpage. How should I do that? --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 22:37, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpage question

Which template actually generates the string " #" in for the subpage template??? It's all mighty complicated!  :-) --Larry Sanger 10:52, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Funny you should mention that. I was just thinking about how to make it more transparent, especially since I might even forget my self. Now we have something more stable I think I can reduce it and simplify it a bit. As far as your question is concerned, for the default buttons it is here. For the optional button it is here. Chris Day (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

I see you put the   in there; doesn't solve the problem, I'm afraid!  :-( --Larry Sanger 13:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

How about now? However, even with the nbsp before the #, if the "nowrap" is not recognised by IE there is still the space between the External and Link words to worry about. Chris Day (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Well, now it's breaking where you were worried it would break.  :-) --Larry Sanger 18:35, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

cats on subpages

That is good news. Once we get these all written down I will remember them, especially when I can do more than one a week. Also, we were working on what to do with the approval history. Did you look at the approval page, that might be all we need? --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:01, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Yes! That would be so much easier. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:25, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpage help

For Template:Technical Help we need a help page for the subpage template. You don't have to do it, I'm just sayin' we need one.  :-) --Larry Sanger 16:53, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

I need one too :) Matt is getting quite familar with the subpage templates. I'll try and write something and see if he understands it. Chris Day (talk) 16:55, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
Additionally, it would appear that the subpage navigation "dots" now appear under IE6 sp2, but now they are shifted down and to the right of the navigation section(to the right of the article space)--Robert W King 17:40, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
sigh Chris Day (talk) 17:42, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
I know. =[ --Robert W King 17:45, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
Template capture.jpg

It just occurred to me, I was looking through the subpage template code and there's no occurrences of position:relative\absolute in the code. I think it would fix the problem that seemingly only crops up in IE6. --Robert W King 15:46, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Can you explain a bit more? Why is that important? By the way, what do the PMAU buttons look like at present? Same problem or different, I have made a few changes sknce you last looked at it. Chris Day (talk) 15:49, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
Right now when a page loads, the (?) button is hovering right be3low the approval template and the 4 buttons are still off of the article page *EXCEPT* when I resize the window--then the 4 buttons move to the "correct" position and the (?) all but disappears into that additional tab.
Position is important because it places an element in one of the four following states: static, relative, absolute, fixed.
  • static - (default) static has the position the normal flow of the page gives it (ignores any top, bottom, left, or right adjustments). The disadvantage I believe is if the browser implementation of page flow is flawed (such as it may be) then you will end up with errored positioning.
  • relative - moves an element relative to its "normal" position, so "left:20px" would move an item 20 pixels to the LEFT.
  • absolute - position at the specified coordinates relative to its container block.
  • fixed - position with respect to the browser window.

See for more reference.

It's important because essentially you control where elements lie according to the various elements of the page. IF no element positioning is defined (static) then there is no preference as to where the elements go (in this case, the four navigation buttons and the (?) button). --Robert W King 16:02, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Do you know...

if we have mouseover on CZ? Also, I think it's time to archive your talk ;) --Robert W King 00:18, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Sorry to do this to you, but...

...could you make the "draft" tab appear only if the draft exists? --Larry Sanger 08:39, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

That should not be too hard. Watch this space. Chris Day (talk) 08:45, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
Dos that work for you? Tell me if you see anything strange. Chris Day (talk) 08:57, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
Excellent, thanks! --Larry Sanger 09:08, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Intermolecular forces

I noticed that you put some templates in Intermolecular forces. I did not yet finish this article. However, I did finish spherical harmonics which you left alone. Since I'm new at CZ I don't know the rules yet. What did you decide to look at Intermolecular forces instead of at any of the other articles I worked on?--Paul Wormer 11:37, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

No paticular reason, other than I saw it pop up a few times in recent changes. I was not sure if you knew about the subpage options and added it to wet your appetite. Welcome aboard. Chris Day (talk) 11:40, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks from Anthony Sebastian

Chris: Thanks for getting my "Signed Article" in Life/draft. I'll try following your lead in doing the next one.

Unrelated question: Life/Draft has appendixes, which I would like to move to one or more subpages. On 'Unused Subpages', could we have Additional Content Excluded From Article Text, or something like that?

--Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 13:02, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

We can definitely have a subpage for such material but we probably want to be a bit more specific than Appendix or Excluded text. All additional subpage names need to go through the editorial council or rubber stamped by Larry. Chris Day (talk) 13:07, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
Suggest additional subpages on 'Unused subpages' button (no need for separate tab for these):
  • "Supplementary text" (for appendixes; excluded sections or sub-sections; extended notes on main/draft article points);
  • "Brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in main/draft article" (include links to their websites or websites focusing on them (
That would allow me, for example, to move from Life/Draft the Appendixes and the Section on Exobiology, which seems anti-climactic.
Will pass this on to Larry as well.


--Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 12:09, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Thomas L. Saaty

Thanks for helping out with this article. The bibliography is planned to be an annotated list of books BY him, rather than ABOUT him. Can you change things to indicate that? (I notice that some sort of template is involved, and I don't want to go in there and mess things up.) Louis F. Sander 18:03, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

In that case you probably want to go with the Works subpage. I'll set it up for you. Chris Day (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Location of "unused" page?

Is it now X/Metadata/Unused? So CZ:Start article needs to be updated, right? --Larry Sanger 09:08, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

No it correct now, unused should be a subpage in the format X/Unused, why do you ask? Chris Day (talk) 09:10, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Hey Chris, on {{checklist2}} or whatever it is that the subpages template uses now, can we have a link back to Template:X/Metadata, with text saying (something like) "edit here"? I know the "M" button exists already, but this will help break in people unfamiliar with the mechanics of subpages. --Larry Sanger 11:08, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Also would be nice to be able to get back to the Talk page from the Metadata page without having to go to the Main article first. No hurry on that one though. --Matt Innis (Talk) 12:15, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

From Stephen's talk page

Another little editing snag - why is it that when I create a template page for any article with a title longer than 3 words I get an error when I add subpages9?? See Common brown lemur or Black and white ruffed lemur as compared to Black lemur or Indri??

Lee R. Berger 07:16, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Wow, let's get Chris Day for that one.. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:57, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Hi Lee, I replied on the talk for Primate/Bibliography. On these template matters, the feature is too new for me to have mastered so I will defer to the creator, Chris. —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 11:59, 7 September 2007 (CDT) Retrieved from ""

I hate to do this to you (again)...

...but, considering how popular "Catalog of" seems to be, and that it has "stuck," we really must replace "Tables" with "Catalogs." This is going to require that we redirect all those Tables subpages to Catalogs subpages. Let me know if you want help doing this. --Larry Sanger 12:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Done this, I think it is completed. i set up an example for Cuisine/Catalogs since there are many cuisine catalogs out there. Chris Day (talk) 18:10, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


Fine now - wierd - it seems to have been a time lag problem or an issue with me putting too much in over a short period of time. It all seems ok now - thanks!

Lee R. Berger 14:34, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Timelag issues are quite common, need to do a hard refresh. Chris Day (talk) 14:56, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Take a look at this?

South african fossil sites - my green box?

Lee R. Berger 15:52, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

There is no metadata template (Template:South african fossil sites/Metadata), so it cannot read the data required to fill out the checklist, hence the placement in the ambiguous status category, see bottom. But this seems more like a subpage type entry, possibly a table, list or catalogue? Chris Day (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Hi Chris

What was odd was that I initially created a template page but it ignored it - once I then clicked on the template page in the green box it let me create the page - again - and that fixed the problem. There seems to be some hidden bug that does this with longer titled pages every now and then? Anyway, this is a sub-page of sorts, or rather a list page I am then using to link to related links. In many ways I think these pages will form the core pages of "bushes" that will evolve naturally - particularly when one is dealing with either geographic locations (sites for example) or taxonomic lists. I'm experimenting now with using them to link pages I've created together (for example, this page links an early hominin site like Sterkfontein with a pleistocene aged site like Hoedjiespunt. I'm kind of just winging this at this time to try and build a foundation in the anthropology workgroup that will give it a critical mass but don't know if this is the right way? I've also created large task lists in the workgroup to assist in this. Thanks for your help.

Lee R. Berger 05:30, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Sounds like a plan and obviously this can change as needed. I moved one of the articles so Africa is capitalised. it looked odd with a small a for Africa. As far as the bug is concerned, it is not your imagination, although i do not have an answer for you. There is a lag somewhere in the system such that new edits do not register immediately. It can usually be fixed by adding a space or other minor edit, or in the case of a new page, just wait a bit. Chris Day (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
  • Thanks! Hammering away!

Lee R. Berger 12:48, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Jack Crawford fix

Many thanks! I must have forgotten to SAVE the Metadata page, although I *thought* I had saved them all as I went along. I'll try creating a new article about Gottfried von Cramm and hopefully this one will be done right!

adding the new templates to an existing article

Now that I've figured out how to create a new article using the templates, can I use them for *existing* articles, such as Pancho Gonzales, say? If so, what do I have to do? Hayford Peirce 14:28, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Useful utility put on CZ:Subpages: a jumping-off page for all subpages of a given kind. Just an idea; anybody can do it. I would, eventually.  :-) --Larry Sanger 17:24, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

I see

I was using the ToApprove instead of Approval in the template! I got it now. Did you have to add the cats? --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:36, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Initially I thught there was no need for cats. However, I then realised that cats may be added or dropped as time goes by so which workgroup approves might be quite pertinent. Chris Day (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm getting it. I have to wait for Roger on Jane Addams for a little bit before I can finish up, so hang in there! --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:43, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
PS thanks for the (talk) button ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:44, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Response to Larry re additional subpages

Chris: I transferred the following from Larry Talk page. No response from him yet.

I'd like to get Anthony's take. --Larry Sanger 16:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Without referring to the Life/Draft article specifically, I think we improve the cluster by having, on the 'Unused subpages' button page, two additional items (subpage types):
  • "Supplementary text" (for text that elaborates on topics in the main article);
  • "Brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in main/draft article" (include links to their websites or websites focusing on them (e.g.,; when CZ develops main articles on such persons, the biosketches could be even briefer and link to the CZ article).
In reference to Life/Draft, I can see many topics needing elaboration that would otherwise render the main article text too long and unwieldy. I would like to have a "Supplementary Text" subpage for those kinds of additions.
I would also like to do brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in the article, for whom no main article yet exists. Especially mentioning their contributions to the subject of the article. Those biosketches might stimulate authors/editors to use them as stub-stubs for prparing a main article biography. It would stimulate me, I know.
I do not think we need an "Appendixes" subpage. "Supplementary text" would take the place of most material authors might put in appendixes, but main articles could still have appendixes. I would convert most of Life/Draft's appendixes to supplementary text, with the groups input.
I have already revised Life/Draft's appendixes. Only one point needed preserving in old Appendix A, which I made as a footnote. The "Definitions of life" appendix I think should go as supplementary text; I have found many, many more definitions by modern biologists that should be added. Likewise, I'd put the exobiology appendix in supplentary text, until a main article gets written.
The principles of Life is to big a subject to try to contain in the main article, and not many of the elaborations needed would serve as a separate article. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 18:48, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

cuisine/catalog/belgium cuisine

I had envisaged this being Belgium cuisine/catalog since I was going to write articles for each regions cuisine. Derek Harkness 22:23, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

That works too. i was just trying to alert people to the existance of the catalog subpage and the cuisine catlogs are very numerous so are an obvious target. Chris Day (talk) 22:27, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
Your updates and new articles about Belgian and French cuisines look fine to me! I don't really know what Derek Harkness has in mind for the cuisine/catalog articles.... Hayford Peirce 16:26, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

updating old articles

Many thanks! I've just printed up your instructions and will give it a try with the Bill Tilden page. And Larry wants Famous tennis players to be changed into the new listing format. That will be next, at least hopefully, Tennis/Catalogs/Famous Players or some such. I doubt if I'll be able to do it, though.... Hayford Peirce 13:03, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

You doubt? You seem pretty good at picking these things up. More to the point you're willing to dive in the deep end. Chris Day (talk) 13:06, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I'll do a couple of more articles and edit the instructions to make them even more fool-proof if necessary. You may well want to pass them along to other people as time passes.... Hayford Peirce 14:26, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I was thinking to pass them on too. You are my guinea pig :) Chris Day (talk) 14:30, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I just did the Bobby Riggs article and I'm pleased at how easy it was to do. I also started new tabs at the top of the article. And, finally, I gave a little polish to the instuctions on my Talk page: they're now pretty much idiot-proof, I would say. Geez, I don't want to even *think* about how these templates are originally created! Hayford Peirce 15:14, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Painfully. I don't know how Chris does it. --Robert W King 15:47, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

bug in the new cataloging system?

I just managed to get Cuisine/Catalogs/French cuisine into the new Cuisine catalog tab by, essentially, trying to reverse engineer what you had done with the Belgian catalog. But it seems to me that there's a major bug somewhere. If you're in the new French catalog and click on Talk, you *always* go to the talk section for Cuisine, not for French cuisine. As it now stands, all the previous discussions on the French page are now lost. Although I'm sure that you will be able to revive them.... Hayford Peirce 17:00, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Nope, I'm wrong about the above. I was clicking on the Talk tab just above the text, NOT the Discussion tab at the very top of the page. Hayford Peirce 17:20, 9 September 2007 (CDT)


{{NAMESPACE}}User talk

[[/]]User talk:Chris Day/Archive 4/

[[../]]User talk:Chris Day




{{{{BASEPAGENAME}}|info=pagename}}Template:Chris Day

{{{{BASEPAGENAME}}/Metadata|info=pagename}}Template:Chris Day/Metadata


{{PAGENAME}}Chris Day/Archive 4

{{SUBPAGENAME}}Archive 4

if Template:Chris Day/Metadata= Chris Day then on talk subpage and User talk:Chris Day will link to Talk:Template:Basepagename

Biology Approval

Congratulations, this is your first individual nomination and it flew with flying colors! Looks real good, too. The subpages are looking better everyday. --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:49, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, Just goes to show how easy approval could and can be. Chris Day (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Maybe we better find a way to make sure we don't miss this one ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:51, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

I edited Larry's Blank metadata page so that the cats can be copied and pasted along with the approval fields. Since biology is ancient it does not have the update. Try and start a new article (for example, this might interest you), or look at the metadata page from a new page and you'll see what I mean. Chris Day (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

That will be easier if can just remember to copy the cats with the rest of the information. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:26, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


Hi Chris, thanks for the welcome. The CZ citation mechanism appears to function in the same way that WP's used to until about 12 months ago. I'll try to describe the difference...<deep breath>. In CZ and WP we can use either
<ref>Begley, p.168</ref> or
<ref name="begley">Begley, p.168</ref>
to format citations. The later is of use if we are likely to be using multiple citations from the same page of Begley's book since further citations can be formatted in the 'shorthand' way as:
<ref name="Begley"/>.
The difference between WP and CZ is that for CZ the initial
<ref name="begley">Begley, p.168</ref> code must come first in the article before any subsequent
<ref name="Begley"/>
whereas in wikipedia as long as they are both in the article the cite.php mechanism seems to work. regards --Russ McGinn 03:23, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Yes that is much better (WP version) especially after moving paragraphs around a bit. Any idea what WP did to get to that point? It seems like a trivial difference at the code level, although, what do I know. Chris Day (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
I used the expression 'boffins' to indicate 'I've absolutely no idea how it works' :-) Russ McGinn 11:09, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
I see, i know how you feel ;) Chris Day (talk) 11:18, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

CZ Live

Since the subpages, are we still adding CZ Live to the bottom of pages? --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:36, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpages do it automatically for now, any article with a status of 0,1,2 or 3. It might be removed at a later date since it is identical to the internal article category. Chris Day (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Template:Taxobox2 delete

Can you delete the above page? or give me editor rights? Kim van der Linde 15:43, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Strange one

I can't figure out why Federal Reserve System/Approval ended up on the ToApprove list? --Matt Innis (Talk) 17:16, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

I'm not sure. My guess is that it is the server delay causing issues again. My bet is that it will disappear on its own. Let's see if it still there tomorrow. Chris Day (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
Well it did not disappear of its own accord. However, i deleted it and recreated the page and now it is not listed in the category. Who knows why? Chris Day (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpage 9 style

What section of the subpage code determines where the PMUA? buttons are on the navigation tab? I want to go in there to set the position flag to see if I can get it work on IE6. --Robert W King 20:55, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

Great, that would be REALLY helpful. The buttons are housed in the {{Subpage_print2}} template. This template is part of the {{Cell_style}} template. The latter template is used in the {{subpages9}} template to codify the colour and content of the table cell below the tabs. It's a while since I thought about the logic for this set up, and i believe there is none. It could probably all be collapsed into the subpages 9 template. I think i didn't do it at the time to try and keep the subpages9 more simple. So, if you want to consolidate those two templates into the subpages9 template that is OK with me. It is possible that part of the problem is this Russion doll structure that that occured in the template, although that is wild speculation on my part. Good luck, Chris Day (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
i just remembered why I had a seperate template for the buttons. I used it, or a version of it, in both the horizontal and vertical subpages set up. Now we only have the horizontal to worry about it does not have to in its own template. You'll note (in the cell style template) that I tried embedding the {{Subpage_print2}} template in it's own div tags to try and stop it jumping out from the subpages template. It did not work and had not effect as far as I can tell. If you go through the history of the {{Cell_style}} template you may be able to reconstruct some of my attempts to solve the issue before I gave up on it. Chris Day (talk) 22:30, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
Is there any way of communicating with you in real time about this? I'm confused. --Robert W King 00:26, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Just ignore all the above. Below is the pruned down version, you can use that for trouble shooting; I am assuming it has the same issues. Chris Day (talk) 07:36, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

1 2 3 4 5
Template:Cell style

This one below is the minimalist version with no stacking templates (i.e. no cell style or subpage print2) or guts (i.e. #if:statements). Does this have the same problems in IE?

1 2 3 4 5  
yes, in fact the four buttons are at the bottom and to the right after many pages of whitespace. I'm going to try something on your talk page in the code above, so don't be alarmed. --Robert W King 11:41, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Adding position:relative; to the "style" section of the div declaration, e.g.

<div align="left" border="0" style="background-color: #cccccc; margin:0.5em; position:relative;"> fixes the problem. --Robert W King 11:45, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

I just updated the main template. Fingers crossed, what do you see? Chris Day (talk) 12:05, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
The four buttons including the "<>" show up fine, but the ? is out of place and disappears if I resize the page. Where is it supposed to go?--Robert W King 12:24, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
I just added the basic code for the ? above. If you see the same issue there can you work your magic again? Chris Day (talk) 12:44, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
It's supposed to go in the grey box?
Yes. You shpould probably work on the bottom one since that shows you all the code. Chris Day (talk) 12:54, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
I Mean, you just fixed it. --Robert W King 13:06, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
I just changed the relevant template un the subpages9 complex. Does it fix the problem for real? Chris Day (talk) 13:09, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
It's now correct on both examples on your talk page but when I go to New York City or any other article that implements the subpage template it's not right.--Robert W King 13:11, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Wait, hold on. Don't change anything yet. --Robert W King 13:13, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
If it is correct on this page (top one) it must be correct on all the others (or something very strange is going on). I wonder if it is the server timelag issue? Chris Day (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
In any case, it works now, thank goodness! --Robert W King 13:16, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Really!!! Great job Robert, there is no way i would have found that solution. Chris Day (talk) 13:19, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm checking pages that have subpage templates now; for some reason it seems fixed on some but not on others, I'm guessing it *could* be an issue with some kind of update or whatever, but I'll make a list. Some other issue could have been unearthed as a result. So far the only pages I've seen that don't place it correctly are Ara autocthones, Black and white ruffled lemur, New York City, Chiropractic
I wonder if something in the taxo box template is interfering with the subpages template? The lemur one has a problem in that the tab does not go blue when selected. I had never seen that issue before. But that does not explain NYC and chiropractic, although for the latter two is it still an isue if you edit the page or hard refresh? Chris Day (talk) 13:49, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
I'll check edit and hard refresh. I'm still going through all 487ish articles that have subpages. Also many of them are not using it on the main page, and some still have older subpage templates. --Robert W King 13:51, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
that will be the next push, to convert everything to {{subpages}} includeing all the subpages9. Chris Day (talk) 13:53, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Somehow, making those changes fixed Ara autocthones; I wonder if that means that if the pages aren't present that the display error will happen? There is some kind of connection there... --Robert W King 14:00, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

I believe it has to do with the page still displaying the old subpages9 format. Any edit to such a page will force it to use the new version. I have no idea why the lag before it using the new version is so long. Chris Day (talk) 14:14, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
You guys do speak a different language but if I read you right do I no longer create subpage9 but {{subpages}}? Please do tell??

Lee R. Berger 14:16, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

That is exactly right. As the subpage thing evolved we ended up with a complete mess of different templates. My goal now is to make the nomenclature more intuitive. For example we don't want people trying to find subpages1-8 templates. It is a big job as there are many different templates used for the correct function. Antoher problem was we were juggling between vertical and horizontal tabs. Now we have code bloat in the template and I want to try and remove that too. Chris Day (talk) 14:21, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

With regard to you using {{subpages}}, the answer is not yet. It won't work right now and I think there will be a automated bot to clean up all the subpage9 templates to subpage temaplates. In short, there is no problem carry on with what you are doing now. Chris Day (talk) 14:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
will do - or are you clever fellows going to create a "bot" that does that? Lee R. Berger 14:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Exactly, but not me. I would not know where to start. Chris Day (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Just 751 pages, with a few people done quickly enoughKim van der Linde 14:31, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
As they say in South Africa "Snap!" - that was a close edit/answer!

Lee R. Berger 14:24, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Snap again, we have it UK too. Chris Day (talk) 14:26, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpages excelsior!

Hi Chris, I think we need a Category:Subpages tag to place on every actual subpage page, if for no other reason than to count up the number of subpages.

Also, where you have, for example, "Category:Signed Articles subpages" I would capitalize "Subpages"--just for uniformity. We've already got, for example, "Category:Developing Articles". --Larry Sanger 07:42, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

I just added two different categories, Category:Subpages and Category:Sub-subpages. Chris Day (talk) 09:40, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Template:Related Articles header2
Template:Bibliography header2
Template:External Links header2
Template:Works header2
Template:Discography header2
Template:Filmography header2
Template:Catalogs header2
Template:Timelines header2
Template:Gallery header2
Template:Audio header2
Template:Video header2
Template:Code header2
Template:Tutorials header2
Template: Student Level header2
Template:Signed Articles header2
Template:Function header2

Other subpages9 templates that need to be converted to subpages formatt.

Excellent! Thanks, Chris.

Aha, but I notice that some pages are listed there that aren't content pages; i.e., metadata and approval subpages. What I'm looking for is a category that has all and only the subpage and subsubpage content, so I can link to it from the front page. Sorry, I should have made that clearer earlier. For this purpose, we could use Category:Subpages, or we could use Category:Subpage Content. I prefer the former, because most people when looking at that category will be interested in finding content, not anything else. There can be, if necessary, another page like Category:All Subpages for the complete list. --Larry Sanger 09:49, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Actually, i understood you but I did not get the filtering correct. I'll fine tune it. Strangely I could not see the content of the category after I had added the cat tags, I assume the server is lagging since you see them fine. Chris Day (talk) 09:55, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Should work now, as in, off the approval page. Chris Day (talk) 10:06, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Excellent, thanks! --Larry Sanger 10:27, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

some articles with subpages aren't listed

Some of the articles that I've added subpages to, such as Bill Tilden and Bobby Riggs are listed on the Home list of articles at but others, such as Frank Sedgman or Pancho Gonzales don't seem to be. Is this because of something that I've done, or not done? Hayford Peirce 17:24, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Gonzales is under G. In Sedgman's case you did not add the subpages temaplte to the top of the subpage. Chris Day (talk) 17:26, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Go to the template of the subpages, and check the what links here. That give a fill list. Kim van der Linde 17:57, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
This is a reduced list i derived from the full list. i'm checking to see which articles still need a metadata page before i transition the subpages9 to subpages. Chris Day (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
hmmm, I musta missed Pancho, sorry. Now there's another problem. See below. Hayford Peirce 18:52, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

the "Start a new article, with subpages" has gone

I just went to the "Start article" in the side bar and clicked on it, then found that the "Start a new article, with subpages" link has vanished. I found your article but don't you think it ought to be easily accessible, the way it was a little while ago? Hayford Peirce 18:56, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Hey, that's my article. And it's still linked, under "The Hard Way." We just don't want to freak new people out by asking them to go through our subpage process just to start an article. --Larry Sanger 18:59, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Ah! Now I see it on the "Hard Way" -- I must have skimmed it too fast before. But it's easy enough -- once you've done it a dozen times or so, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 19:10, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


Black, incomplete links do not have a template included on the page, rather a link to the template.


Black, incomplete links do not have a template included on the page, rather a link to the template.

mystery of the missing talk tab

The evidence can be seen here. Perhaps Hayford can help us.

Chris, somebody stole the talk tab..? --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:25, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

It's a lie. He photo edited it out! If I see it, there must not be a problem. I'm the lowest common denominator of web browser utility. --Robert W King 21:53, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
And where were you earlier this evening? --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:58, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Playing in my sandbox. The evidence is there. I Dare you to challenge me on it! --Robert W King 21:59, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

No worries, i fixed the problem. I believe Matt just has very poor eyesight. Chris Day (talk) 22:04, 13 September 2007 (CDT) No, not until you've seen the second one!

How do you explain this one.. another forgery? Hayford, where are you?

That's what they all say... and was anyone else there with you? Anyone can alter computer records! --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:06, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

It's still missing... --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:10, 13 September 2007 (CDT) Missingtalktab3.jpg

I can see it now! Yep, it's missing!

Very Funny: But it is still missing :-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:18, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Barnardius_zonarius seems to be fixed now too? Is it OK for you? I had to switch it back to the subpages9, possibly something wrong with the new subpages template? Chris Day (talk) 22:27, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

No, still the same. Even did a Ctrl F5 to refresh on both barny and chiro. I use IE7 like Larry, I wonder if he has the same problem? By the way, other articles are good. --Matt Innis (Talk)

Not okay Australopithecus africanus sites,Thomas L. Saaty
Okay Jane Addams, Tina Turner
Matt, go delete your cache, and check again, just to be sure.--Robert W King 23:08, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
The Talk tab has been missing all day on all my articles that have subpages. I was going to comment on it this morning, but then thought that maybe there was a *reason* it was missing. Even though it looks like a missing front tooth in the smile of a beautiful girl.... Hayford Peirce 23:34, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
But why only some pages? Or is it all your pages? Chris Day (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
And as usual, I'm in the position of not being able to trouble shoot it as i don't see the fault. Chris Day (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Ok, they're not on drugs. When I go to Barnwhatever, I see the background for it missing, but I see the word "Talk" there, so I can click on it. We need to find out what the common factor is here.--Robert W King 23:50, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Index error.jpg

As always, the common factor is IE. Chris Day (talk) 23:57, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Actually, I think the common problem is any page that has been switched from subpages9 to subpages. I'm noticing a slight display error that goes on but is quickly "redrawn" when the page loads. I managed to capture it just in time.
Index cap.jpg
Hayford and Matt, please check this article to see if you're affected. --Robert W King 00:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Interesting, this is different to what Matt see, I think. In this case the talk button has been shifted to the left. Does it reslove itself in the end? Chris Day (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
What I'm suggesting is that it is the exact problem, but exhibits itself differently on Matt and Hayford's screens. For me, yes it resolves itself. --Robert W King 00:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
The obvious thing we did was add the poisiton:relative tag. In fact it is that disappearing button we added it too. I wonder if ther is some other parameter that pair with it to make it work normally in IE7 Chris Day (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

the problem is with IE

I just looked at bunch of articles with subpages in Firefox -- *absolutely no problem*! The Talk tab is there. I then looked at the same articles in IE -- the Talk tab is *always* missing. It has not been shifted anywhere -- it is simply gone.... Off to bed.... Hayford Peirce 00:43, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

I'm awake! Could it have shifted *under* "Main article" instead of over? --Dematt 06:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Wow, isn't that weird, I was able to sign in under my wikipedia user name! That's not right either! --Matt Innis (Talk) 06:52, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
You must have registered it at the beginning but forgotten you did so. Chris Day (talk) 07:59, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Yep, I bet your right. It is my forums user name, too. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:07, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Matt I think you've hit it. It's all underneath. I have a white background behind the buttons so that makes a lot of sense. Do you see the same problem above on the simplified versions? The buttons should show on the blue lower cell as well as the ? button in the small tag to the right. So next question is how do we control the layers? Chris Day (talk) 07:54, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

I think the way to fix it is to use the display:inline or display:block attribute (I believe). --Robert W King 08:02, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
All yours, I have not heard of any of those. I'll watch and learn :) Chris Day (talk) 08:03, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I am not sure what you mean by 'simplified versions', but when I clicked on Jane Addams just now, for a split second I saw the talk button just as it disappeared. It was in the right location. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:05, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
We need to isolate an example. Do us a favour and click refresh like a million times watching it to see what happens, you might be able to see where it goes. Chris can you set up the navigation in this talk page so we can replicate the problem? --Robert W King 08:07, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I can't make it happen. I hit ctrl f5 about 35 -40 times and watched. The talk never showed this time. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:23, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Matt, these two are the simplified versions. Same style code with the guts ripped out to trouble shoot. Chris Day (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Below is the pruned down version, you can use that for trouble shooting;

1 2 3 4 5
Template:Cell style

This one below is the minimalist version with no stacking templates (i.e. no cell style or subpage print2) or guts (i.e. #if:statements).

1 2 3 4 5  
This is what I see --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:23, 14 September 2007 (CDT) Me too matt, so at least we are consistent here. But now how can we test the probelm if we can't recreate it?
--Matt Innis (Talk) 08:31, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Here is an article Hillary Clinton that they just added the subpages to. It seems okay. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:33, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

But the old ones are still a problem? I don't understand these things but it sounds like a cache type issue but at CZ's end. On the other hand why would there have been a problem in the first place, we have not changed anything? One connected thing is that when i upload a new version of a picture i often can't see it for a few hours, even though i know it got uploaded because the pixel size is consistent with the newer version of the photo. Whether these issues are connected is anyones guess. Chris Day (talk) 08:51, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
It gets even weirder. When I clicked on related articles on Hillary Clinton, the talk was gone, but then bibliography and it was there, went back to related articles and it was still gone, then to biblio and now it is gone... But it is still there on the main article.. go figure.. has to be IE7. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:02, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
How about the test ones here. Are they consistent? Chris Day (talk) 09:09, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I'll check. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:19, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
The Chiropractic talk is missing on all tabs except signed article adn it is consistent. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:40, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I then clicked on Hillary gallery and it was there, then back to main and it was gone. Did it again and it was there again... Since it was the last thing you did to the template, could it be that it times out before it can load because the template is too big maybe? Maybe try moving the talk section to the front and see if it loads first. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:19, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
But it's ahead of the default and optional subpage tabs and they load fine. Chris Day (talk) 09:28, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Jane Addams is no longer okay. The Talk was there (in the right spot), then I clicked on draft and it was not there. When I went back to mainarticle it was gone and won't come back. Tina Turner still works fine no matter where I click. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:03, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Resize the window and see what happens. --Robert W King 10:04, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Resizing the window WORKED! Also, before I did that I closed my browser and deleted my temporary internet files and cookies. When I reopened chiropractic the talk tab was there, but when I clicked draft it dissappeared. Then resized and it came back!!!! -Matt Innis (Talk) 11:14, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Of course it disappears as soon as I click on anything else... even in the resized window where the tabs are TALL. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:18, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Another update. If I open 'internet options' on my browser and change the setting under 'temporary internet files' to anything - the talk immediately shows up as well as a ? and the <> PUMA (that I did not realize were also not there. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:28, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

PS. - I don't even have to change the setting. All I have to do is hit OK and it seems to refresh the page and those things show back up again. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:31, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Another update. Resizing brings back Talk but not PUMA. PUMA returns only after click OK on temporaru\y internet options under internet options. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:58, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

OK, so apart from the fact you need to buy a MAC, is there any potential solution to this problem? It sounds so random. Chris Day (talk) 13:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm pretty sure I can fix it but I need to know how much of the sample code above (in the examples) is the subpage template code. --Robert W King 01:17, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
I was hoping you might have an idea. You recognised the z bug a while back but I'm out of my deoth with respect to coding that feature. As far as the code above, it is identical to the subpages template code. All I removed was the code for identifying the subpages and the decisio tree for placing the page headers. Chris Day (talk) 07:48, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
moving to my sandbox. --Robert W King 10:56, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

Articles disappearing from developed category!

See today's discussion at the top of the talk page for the Anthropology Workgroup. --Joe Quick (Talk) 14:57, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Ignore this - my bad - I have been editing incorrectly - I have been using a "2" instead of a "1" for articles that are nearly ready and could not understand why they were not in "developed" - they were in "developing" - my bad....

Lee R. Berger 15:03, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

I was about to mention this :) I did a quick count coming upo with 8 developed, 67 developing. Did you know you can just cut and paste the checklist into the metadata page? That way nothing is changed and you don't have to retype it all, unless it needs updating. Chris Day (talk) 15:06, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Sure - I just have a COI issue with moving my own articles from "developing" to "developed" - I am really just creating basic content and need other specialists to weigh in - so for the time being I think they are in the right place - by the way, I am thrilled with the way the workgroup page and the whole category is begining to "snowball" - You can see the "wiki" effect starting and its great!

Lee R. Berger 15:11, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Oops. And I was seeing the effects of a whole different mistake of my own (which is now fixed). :-) --Joe Quick (Talk) 15:12, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Edits to Anthro

I like it - but there are some "floaters" - the Taung child for example - but how do we clean that up?

Lee R. Berger 15:39, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Also some problems with the black text coming out white (see primates section). I'm not to good at this stuff so not sure what next. Might be best to revert for now. Chris Day (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
No keep it - lets let some young "bucks" com along and fix it. Your idea is good and attracts attention which is what we need.

Lee R. Berger 15:48, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

What on earth just happened? I'm totally confused. :-\ --Joe Quick (Talk) 15:50, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

We were all editing at the same time

Lee R. Berger 15:52, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Oh, wait. Chris, you must have been responding to my forum post from earlier, right? But now it's back to what I had set up? --Joe Quick (Talk) 15:53, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

It was just see if i could get the edit hyerlinks in there with a <div></div> set up. You can, so it might be the best route in the long run. Chris Day (talk) 15:56, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I'll put it back and then you can add style comments. I have no idea why the text is white/missing in one or two spots though. Chris Day (talk) 15:59, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Totally by coincidence, we're working on the same problem (style of dual-column lists). Here's my latest solution: CZ:Content Policy. --Larry Sanger 16:07, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Chris, before you do too much, let's revert the workgroup page to the prettier version and then I'll copy it all into my userspace along with your edits so we can play with it there. --Joe Quick (Talk) 16:10, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Jack Crawford

Thanks for fixing this up! I went to go get a Coke to help stimulate my brain and I was just about to try fixing it myself. I'll try to figure out precisely how you did it.... Hayford Peirce 17:16, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpages should be added when you use Larry's start a new page tool. So hopefully this will not be a issue for much longer. For a while it did not include it and this metadata page was one of the lemons that got through! I have seen quite a few like it. Chris Day (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Oh great template guru

How do I make the text not touch the table borders at User:Stephen_Ewen/Scratch_Pad5? I think I have to place a table in a table, right?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 23:35, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

There must be something magical about merely asking the great template guru a question. My problem is solved. :-)

Red, Amber and Green links

You probably have thought of this and rejected it for some reason but I can't find any discussion of this exactly in the forums. have you considered using three different colors for the article links in the wiki? Much like what we are talking about in the forums for a red, amber and green symbol indicating status of an article - why couldn't the article name (or intra-link)wherever it appears in text be red for non-existant (as it is), Dark amber (a readable yellow that is) for developed or developing articles and Green (instead of the normal blue) for approved? If one were really clever, a stub could be a light red or lighter amber moving towards darker amber as it goes from developing to developed. In this way we are re-enforcing concepts of article status and (trustability) in all parts of the wiki.

Lee R. Berger 08:09, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

I don't know exactly how technically practical this is. We would have to create some sort of link template (instead of using standard wikilinks), and even then, we'd be limited to either having people identify the link when they edited the page, or basing it off some characteristic of the page name. Ultimately, it would require work on both the database and the parser, and given that we have little in the way of technical volunteer time, that's unlikely to happen soon. Sorry, because it's a cool idea. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 18:17, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Zach, check out the Anthro Workgroup priority list. It is still being finessed, but it works pretty well, I think.--Joe Quick (Talk) 18:21, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
OK, that's pretty clever. I didn't even think of using the Metadata templates like that. It's computationally intensive (as you have to check the Metadata template for each linked page), but it works. That's pretty genius. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 18:38, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpagination bot

I made the following post on the forums on the subpagination bot that I'm writing:

"I did a test today. Three articles were converted automatically: Jack Kramer, Jackrat Terrier, and Jacksonian Democracy. Have a look at those pages and at User:Jitse Niesen/Subpagination and see whether I have made any mistakes.

You will find one mistake in the first article (now corrected): I first put the metadata at Jack Kramer/Metadata instead of Template:Jack Kramer/Metadata. That seems to be quite a common fault."

Any comments are welcome. -- Jitse Niesen 10:50, 15 September 2007 (CDT)


Adding the following: (I know it's jumbled up but bear with)

<div align="left" border="0" style="background-color: #cccccc; margin:0.5em; position:relative;display:table;">

{|class=noprint width="100%" border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" style="background:#ffffff;display:table;"
|1||2||3||4||5||width=25px align=center bgcolor="#cccccc" style="white-space: nowrap; border-bottom:2px solid #eeeeee; border-top:2px solid #dddddd; border-right:2px solid #dddddd; border-left:2px solid #bbbbbb; position:relative; display:table;"|{{click|image=Subpages.png|link=CZ:Subpage Pilot |width=17px|height=17px}}
|style="background-color: #FFFFff; border-bottom:2px solid #eeeeee;"| 


|colspan=20 style="padding: 5px 5px 5px 5px; background:#C4D2DF"|

{| height=25px align="right" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"

|{{clickurl|image=Print button.png|link={{FULLPAGENAMEE}}&printable=yes|width=17px|height=17px}}


|{{click|image=Approval button.png|link={{BASEPAGENAME}}/Approval |width=17px|height=17px}}

|{{click|image=Unused button.png|link={{BASEPAGENAME}}/Unused|width=17px|height=17px}}



Talk tab streeeeeeeetch

Firefox on Mac OS X --Joe Quick (Talk) 12:45, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

See User_talk:Robert_W_King#updates_to_subpage_template Chris Day (talk) 12:49, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

I believe something funny is going on

The workgroup pages are being nominated for speedy delete one by one (naming Joe Quick as the author - each time I go back one is nuked! How so?

Lee R. Berger 14:40, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

Ignore - we were just editing at the same time I think as greatly improved pages are magically appearing!

nice job on the sandwich map! Richard Jensen 16:18, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Supplementary text --> Addendum

Anthony, Chris and I are concerned that "Supplementary Text" is just too long for the tabs. That (template) real estate is very valuable. How would "Addendum" do for a name? --Larry Sanger 19:36, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Hi Anthony, I set up a test run for you to check out. See Life/Addendum. Chris Day (talk) 19:54, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. Like it very much. Would it task greatly to change to "Addenda", or do you think not necessary? Thinking we might have distinctly different topics covered there as separate sections in a TOC. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 20:11, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Retrieved from ""

Even with mutliple sections doesn't it still represent an addendum for the life article? Can you have more than one addendum for an article, as opposed to an appendix where you could have several. Chris Day (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
I agree, Addendum better. I already made the link Life/Addendum in Life/Draft, so readers will have two places to find the addendum to the article. Thanks for making the addition to the cluster. Really appreciate it. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 20:35, 20 September 2007 (CDT)


Hi Chris. Sorry, I forgot my manners and have not thanked you for reverting the archiving on Talk:Systems theory (general)/Notes the other day. Your help was much appreciated. Btw, how can one revert an article on CZ to some previous version? TIA. Hendra I. Nurdin 17:57, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

No problem, I see Larry has given Tom a permanent ban. As far as reverting to previous versions, this is easily done by going to the history tab at the top of the page. You can find every version since the first edit there. Chris Day (talk) 00:48, 22 September 2007 (CDT)


When the chemical infobox is inserted into Polonium, it looks wider than other elements. can you take a look? Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 17:07, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

I fixed the width issue but I'm not sure if that is the correct format for the template. I asked Robert here, User_talk:Robert_W_King#electron orbitals since he worked on this template. Chris Day (talk) 20:22, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
Here's the thing with that template. The eltrnCfg section is a table cell and is supposed to word-wrap. The no1,no2,no3,no4 are the oxidation states. As far as I know on polonium it "looks correct" according to the way it should be on the template. I've asked for feedback numerous times on this template, but no one's provided any (to my irritation) so I don't know what needs to be changed or fixed. --Robert W King 22:30, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
THere might be some variance in width but it should be marginal/negligable. --Robert W King 22:39, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
Is this meant to be the same output as a version on wikipedia? Looking at their out put might make it easier for me to figure out what is happening. By the way are the titles intended to be shifted to the right? Chris Day (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
No. Yes, they're supposed to be to the right. --Robert W King 23:12, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
To the right? What is the logic for that? Did you see the change I made for the electron configuration? Was there a reason for it to be restricted to the left rather than going along the bottom? Also, if one of those four fields has no entry it might be best for it not to appear? Unless the idea is that they must all be filled. Chris Day (talk) 23:22, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
They should all be filled. Going along the bottom is fine; I didn't know if there was other information that was going to end up in the box. To the right to balance the visuals; otherwise the template looks ugly. --Robert W King 23:48, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
Visuals? I'm not sure what you mean by this, what am I misunderstanding? Chris Day (talk) 00:23, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpage cell

There's a column blank cell on the left of the subpage template, should it be there? --Robert W King 13:33, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Yes, I plan to place another experimental status bar there, but have been too tied up to finish the project. Chris Day (talk) 16:04, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Lee's students

Hi, yes I am. Lee asked us to get our articles up as soon as possible so we could start to receive comments. I'm just experimenting to see if I've grasped the code. My full article should go up by tomorrow and you'll probably see the other students doing the same. I'd appreciate any comments you could give me.

Hi, that last post was me. Still getting the hang of this :) Natasha Barbolini 14:01, 24 September 2007 (CDT)Natasha Barbolini

I'm no anthropologist but I'll be interested to read them. Chris Day (talk) 16:05, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

"Status image"

The one I believe marked for "2" is horribly horizontally misshapped. It's "fat". --Robert W King 00:49, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

could be a lag effect from a previous image. I have been uploading them pretty quickly. Which article has what you are seeing? Chris Day (talk) 00:51, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
See Statusbar1.png, Statusbar2.png, Statusbar3.png, Statusbar4.png. --Robert W King 00:53, 26 September 2007 (CDT) Nevermind.

Oh great template guru, I grovel before thee to beseech thine aid

Chris, is there any way to transpose text from one part of a page to another? Specifically, is there a way to get the media templates that Mediawiki has wired to appear under a page subheading to instead appear within another template? More specifically still, is there a way to make the templates available for selection at MediaWiki:Licenses appear instead within the Copyright holder and reproduction rights section of {{Image notes}}? I'm stumped. Really, this time.  :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:26, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

So you want a to use a drop down menu in that image notes template? It sounds as if this should be possible, but this is beyond my ken. Sorry. Chris Day (talk) 05:45, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

partial tab

Partialtab.jpg I meant how the split between the cells no longer goes all the way down. It looks a little strange to me. --Joe Quick (Talk) 17:58, 26 September 2007 (CDT)


...ought be added to the approved article template, for ascetic reasons.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:17, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Or for aesthetic reasons, for those of us who don't care about asceticism!  :-P --Larry Sanger 17:05, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Categories at bottom of article page

They are kind of annoying, I find--too many. They used to be on the talk page. Don't all talk page categories result in the main page being categorized? I believe so. If so, then please let's move all categories except "CZ Live" and workgroup categories to the talk page.

Ongoing hearty thanks for your work. Anton and I were praising you "over a pint" yesterday at the Brazen Head in Dublin. --Larry Sanger 17:05, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks and Dublin is great, have fun. Categories are now split and it looks a lot better. Server is still slow my end. I hope these supage templates are not slowing down the whole site. Is it possible they are drawing losts of computing powers due to the large number of included templates etc? Chris Day (talk) 17:53, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it's slow because the recent MediaWiki upgrade--which I've been waiting for our tech crew to announce... I do think we need to investigate the cost in terms of computing power the templates add. --Larry Sanger 11:04, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Macromolecular chemistry

Hi Chris, I finished reading macromolecular chemistry and except for a few question marks that still have to be filled in, I am ready to approve the article. Are you too?--Paul Wormer 10:43, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpages metadata error message


I tried to start a couple of new articles today using the "hard way" link from the Start article link. And I got the following error message both times when clicking "Save" after entering the required fields in the first screen for metadata:

Internal error

Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; in LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.

I have no idea what that message means or how to set my "local settings" but it did not used to do that. It may be me (it is early here), or browser issue (firefox) or a genuine bug?

I have used same method previously to start articles, so not sure if something has changed since I last worked on CZ.

Thanks, --Ian Johnson 23:22, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

That's a technical issue on the server end (issue with the upgrade, most likely). Did you actually get the pages created? We need to know where exactly the issue is, and any detailed information helps. The only other time this came up, John Stephenson was uploading images, and the images actually uploaded, but didn't show up in his "contributions" page. Thanks. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 23:32, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

Hi Zach. I tried to start two articles. First "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I was using abc "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The" and "BE" for British English. I then previewed the metadata page and they looked 'normal' ie like the earlier ones I did, a whole load of bold text in each field about metadata template. Then when clicking save, got the error message above after hitting "save" to create the page. Then I retried by removing the ' from "Hitchhiker's" in case that was a problem, got same error message. Then tried to create another page "Douglas Adams" and the same things happened with same error message. Not sure if you can see it but error message for that one came up with in the browser address bar. So I think the pages were not created? Maybe they were but the error message itself appearing was the error, rather than the set-up process? --Ian Johnson 23:43, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

I just tried to create a metadata template from scratch and got the same error (Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; in LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.). Chris Day (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

OK, so those pages aren't getting created. Unfortunately, all that error message tells us is that "the guys" accidentally turned off the error-reporter. Emailed them about it. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 00:03, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Cool. Am going back to crash for a few hours. Will check in here later. Good luck. --Ian Johnson 00:06, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
Nothing's gonna happen in the next few hours - it's 1 AM or 12 AM on a Sunday for our tech team. In fact, I spent most of the day doing filming, and I have a presentation tomorrow, and then more filming. I'm going to bed too. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 00:13, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Got the same error message trying to complain about a dangling preposition over at Template talk:Image notes. Is it all new pages? I didn't have any problems earlier this evening. --Joe Quick (Talk) 00:58, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Please see Template talk:Subpages

Request there. --Larry Sanger 11:24, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Making Templates Faster

Fundamentally, one thing we need to try to do is make templates both smaller and fewer in number. If a template calls on another which calls on another, than we're doing the database equivalent of loading like 3 pages to get that template. Also, if we have dozens of templates on a page, then we're basically doing the work on the server-side of creating dozens of pages. That's why we need to consolidate templates - ideally we shouldn't have more than a two-template hierarchy at max. In the cases of the more popular templates (especially if they're relatively static), we may want to use subst: to directly include the wikitext from templates into the "downstream" templates. Also, making the templates take up less code would make downloads slightly faster. That's not as helpful, but cutting even a dozen lines off of something that gets loaded thousands of times a day would net us some savings. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 13:55, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

I knew that might come back to bite us. I think initially we wanted to do them as actual pages instead of template pages, but we couldn't figure out the logic in order to reference the directory tree (folders/subfolders). --Robert W King 14:41, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

I expected this. I'll try reduce it to the minimum number of templates. The real reason for the complexity is the way it was written i.e. in bits and pieces. Now it is almost finalised it is ready for a redesign. Chris Day (talk) 15:06, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

One question, if a particular template is not called on for a particular page, but, nevertheless included in the subpages template, does that still cause problems with respect to speed? Chris Day (talk) 15:09, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
There's still the IF script logic that determines if it's not needed? I believe whatever you specify in the template is called on regardless but I could be mistaken. --Robert W King 15:15, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
Looking at this "manual page, I think there's a way around this. I'll have to test a bit when I get a chance. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 17:08, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Approval process

Thanks for all your work on my recent approvals nominations. There is still one glitch: although the Lohmann article appears in the politics workgroup [to be approved] listing, the two articles for economics are missing. Given that we need to increase workgroup presence and interaction, it would be good to sort this out. Many thanks. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:48, 30 September 2007 (CDT) It is because the Approvals pages list only the first workgroup: really, they must list all of them. I am reluctant to change them because I don't know what the reason is...--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:57, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Most likely someone added ecomomics to the article and didn't know they should do it on the metadata page too. I'll change it. Chris Day (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
Now I see what you mean. I must have missed some code in the template, I'll add it asap. Thanks for the eagle eye. Chris Day (talk) 19:22, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

All better!

I'm not sure if you did anything, but all is working well now on IE7!
I didn't do a thing. Chris Day (talk) 12:34, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
It's gone again?! --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:40, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
What has gone? One thing I noticed was the the collapsable windows has become inactive again. Clearly they decided to strip out some of what they installed this past weekend. A downgrade? Chris Day (talk) 21:57, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
Images still don't show. --Robert W King 22:00, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
You can see it if you click on the link though. But yes, they obviously did not do a complete downgrade of the upgrade since we still have some things not functioning. :) I know, i Know... incomprehensible. Maybe I should use prefixes such as the good downgrade to fix the bad upgrade? Chris Day (talk) 22:11, 4 October 2007 (CDT)

where's the meat?

What happened to the sandwich.jpg image it won't load at the Sandwich article ???? Richard Jensen 16:07, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

I think its a bug. I updated the figure since I had mispelled Carolina. Apparently all images uploaded since the upgrade are not showing up. As far as I am aware they are working out the kinks right now. Just sit and wait, it should reappear soon. Chris Day (talk) 16:21, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
YUK!-- a bug in the sandwich! :( Richard Jensen 16:23, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Missing full stop in subpages template

The subpages template at the top of Barnardius zonarius expands as:

"Article approved by an editor (see the talk page) of the Biology Workgroup The Citizendium Foundation and Citizendium participants make no representations about the reliability of this article or its suitability for any purpose." (formatting removed)

I would add a full stop (a period) after "Workgroup". -- Jitse Niesen 21:10, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

You're right, actually, I think the whole thing needs to be rewritten. Someone had mentioned a few alternatives in the forums. I'll try and find that thread again. Chris Day (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
Please don't edit any template that is transcluded on more than a few dozen pages until we sort out what the heck is going on with the job queue, or you'll bring us down again. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 22:03, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
Don't worry i got the message. I have created a few test templates to try and prune down the template. Chris Day (talk) 22:05, 1 October 2007 (CDT)
That wasn't so much aimed at you as at any other well-meaning soul who stumbled by here and went "Oh, that's just a typo, I'll do them a favor and fix it..." Sort of one of those slow-motion movie-style horrified "NNNNOOOOOOO!!!!!"s or whatever. OK, I'm tired and sick. Good night. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 22:25, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Approval process 2

Wow, this is getting so much easier. You have really done some great things. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:27, 2 October 2007 (CDT)

You really like it? The changes I made were aimed at the constables, so I'm glad to hear that. Chris Day (talk) 08:30, 2 October 2007 (CDT)
Yes, I can't wait till the next one now that I have the learning curve under control. There might be a couple of tweaks that would move it closer to a 'one step' process. Currently, moving the article to article/draft and then recreating the article (so the history goes with the draft) seems repetitive as well as placing the orange approval notice at the bottom of the talk page. If those were to get automated, we would be real close to two or three steps, I think.. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:05, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

That approval took 11 minutes start to finish. Some was my fumble, but otherwise not bad. A lot easier than the initial process.--Matt Innis (Talk) 12:40, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

So what next? Any places where we can streamline it more? Chris Day (talk) 12:42, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Chris

Thanks for getting the ToApprove on the move for van der Waals equation

David E. Volk 16:02, 4 October 2007 (CDT)


I agree. :)) Robert Tito |  Talk 

Requesting help re 'categories' and 'subpages' for specific article

Chris: For this month's Write-a-Thon, I submitted The Fourth Great Awakening and the Future of Egalitarianism (book by Robert William Fogel). I used the 'Start articles with subpages' method.

  • How do I get back to the 'checklist' to add a category I forgot (Religion Workgroup)?
    • You can click the orange M in the header. Or on the talk page hit the blue link to the metadata template, immediately above the checklist, to enter the edit mode on the metadata template.Chris Day (talk)
      • Chris: Thanks. But: Adding the 'tl|'version of the subpages template to top of talk page did not insert the 'checklist'. Yet adding it without the 'tl|' did. Tried adding "cat4 = whatever". Wouldn't take more than three categories. so still need help ---Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 22:45, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
        • Sorry to confuse you. The tl version is just so I can provide a link as well as a visual representation of what you need to add to the talk page. What you literally write is just subpages within the squiggly brackets. I can't write it here without the tl otherwise it will add the template here too. You can't do more than three categories. You'll have to decide the top three. There is a discussion on this in the forums. I get you the link to it. Chris Day (talk) 22:49, 4 October 2007 (CDT)
  • How do I get the 'Addendum' subpage added?
    • Just start a page and it will show up. To ensure you get the exact pagename correct click the read U button (unused subpages) and click on Addendum in the list of unused subpages to start the new page.Chris Day (talk)
  • I have already started a checklist, via 'Start article with subpages'. How do I put the already partially completed checklist on top of the article's Talk page?
    • You need to add the {{subpages}} template to the top of the talk page. Then you'll also see the things I mentioned above. I'd do this for you but I think it might be more helpful to let you do it yourself. Let me know if you need more help. Chris Day (talk)
Thanks in advance for your helping a slow learner. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 17:20, 4 October 2007 (CDT)