User talk:Richard Jensen/Archive 2

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First Punic War

I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Finals season up here (one more week!) and I'm swamped with a lot of work.

My plans on the First Punic War were that I'd get a detailed outline of the events down in the main article with sections linked on the important battles and on some of the important academic issues at hand (I.E. the validity of the Treaty of Philinus and the nature of Roman-Punic relations before the First Punic War) followed by a separate article on the Libyan War between Carthage and her Ex-Mercenaries after the end of the Punic War and then the Second Punic War.

Any help at all would be more than welcome, the only problem is (and the main reason why the article is stalled where it is) that I'm still swamped with work here and wont be finished for about another week and a half. After that, however, I'm looking forward to dedicating a lot more time to editing here and finishing the article.

--Rob Glass 06:06, 8 May 2007 (CDT)


Richard, I'd like to ask you, please, to stop moving moving articles to different titles according to your idiosyncratic principles. I'm comfortable with you doing this with the history articles, but not in other fields. Also, please be aware that we will discuss this issue and decide definitively about it as regards History Workgroup articles in the Editorial Council, soon after we've adopted our procedural rules. It's entirely possible--and likely, I think--that we will go back to "history of X" type titles, for the sake of general uniformity across the entirety of Citizendium. Let's not debate this now (again), I just didn't want to leave you thinking that "silence is consent," so the issue had been decided in your favor... I'll be reverting several the "list of journal" name moves. Please don't revert these back. --Larry Sanger 14:08, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

I changed two titles, one in history and one in IR, after explaining the reasons and calling for comments several days ago. The IR article was poorly titled from any perspective. Bringing experts into CZ means we have to listen to their expertise and not dismiss their wisdom as "idiosyncratic". Richard Jensen 14:17, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm truly sorry. I really didn't mean to dismiss your wisdom as idiosyncratic, merely to say that the policy you're advocating is nonstandard for projects like this--for reasons we needn't revisit now.

I hope you'll bear in mind that when it comes to naming conventions on wiki encyclopedias, I'm an expert, too.  ;-) --Larry Sanger 14:20, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Larry, Appeal to long-standing tradition sits poorly in a new venture. (The IR item we're discussing is a hoary three months old.) I suggest that micromanagement by overruling your experts is an inefficient use of management skills. Richard Jensen 14:25, 12 May 2007 (CDT)


Just finished the biography of John F. Kennedy from scratch...if you would like to please take a look and improve it if possible. Thank you! Yi Zhe Wu 21:52, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. I learned about him in US history class last week and I thought it would be cool to write an article about him in Citizendium. Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 22:16, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

History of English -- thanks!

Hi Richard, just a quick thanks for the bibliography for the History of English entry -- good selections! I have always been a fan of Crystal (he's the author of my regular textbook, the Cambridge Companion to the English Language). A first-rate linguistic bibliography -- for a historian :-> Russell Potter 19:16, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks! i've been a devoted bibliographer for 40 years and am delighted that CZ gives an opportunity to ply the trade. :) Richard Jensen 19:19, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Northwest Passage

Hi Richard. After posting it to the "request for comment" page and getting some very useful feedback, I think that Northwest Passage is just about ready for approval. At the suggestion of several readers, I have added a map at the top, and made a few other noted corrections.

If you could have a look at it, and let me know if there are any substantial concerns remaining, I'd be much indebted to you -- and, if these can be addressed, if you'd be willing to nominate it for Approval under the single-editor plan, I would be additionally grateful. This article has been written from scratch for CZ, and will I hope further showcase what we're capable of -- it puts the WP entry to shame, I think! Many thanks, Russell Potter 08:56, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Excellent article! I added a section on recent diplomacy (which I originally wrote for Wiki in February). I will nominate for Approval. Richard Jensen 11:58, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
Richard, many thanks indeed -- the new section is a great addition, much more up-to-date and specific in terms of the issues involved. Russell Potter 12:33, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Wilson photos...

Hi Richard,

I removed some photos we added to the Woodrow Wilson article. I thought they looked good when I scrolled through but when I read the whole entire article I just breezed by every single photo except for NY Times election results and the Princeton photo. I removed our photos because

They didn't catch my attention when I read the article. They were a bit faded and difficult to see. They were too big. They would be better used in subpages/other related articles (with exception of the Wilson Trust photo) Wikipedia already had one. I think it would be better if we avoid the pictures wikipedia has and find others that are better.

I hope you don't mind.

Eric Pokorny 20:35, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Party Systems

At just 198 words, this article is most definitely a stub and is a very long way form reaching status 1-Developed. Additionally, if you alter the checklist, please sign you name. Your current edit makes it look like I think the article is status 1 when I do not! Derek Harkness 04:11, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

The article uses 200 words to define the concept and 500 words for a good bibliography which is what most users will use. Apologies for omitting signature. Richard Jensen 10:39, 23 May 2007 (CDT)
The fact that there are enough books to make a 500 word bibliography proves that the article is a stub. A bibliography cannot be considered acceptable alternative to writing an article properly. I for one have no access to the books you mentioned so the bibliography is next to useless to me. Derek Harkness 13:23, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Northwest Passage

Hi Richard, it looks like there have been three edits to Northwest Passage since you approved it. If you are still happy with it, just update the version on the ToApprove tag to the latest version. That way when I go to perform the mechanics of the approval, Nancy won't have to look for you. If you don't want them, you don't have to do anything, they will be included on the draft page but not in the article. --Matt Innis (Talk) 18:39, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


There was an edit conflict over this article when I was copyediting and changing it; can you check that everything you added is still there; I think I saved your contributions but I'm not sure. Thanks. John Stephenson 22:52, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Thank you. I made some more small changes. Eventually this will be a long article.Richard Jensen 23:28, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Request for editorial intervention

Professor Jensen, recently I saw articles on Young earth creationism (which I wrote a large portion for), intelligent design, and intelligent design theory devolving into disputes and may potentially turn into WP-style war. Since you are the only active expert I can find around CZ (User:David Tribe is also an expert, but now he's not that active), can you please take a look and intervene? Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 09:14, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

P.S. nice job on Hitler article! Yi Zhe Wu 15:20, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks for the heads up and kind words. Young earth is a religion article / religious history article so I rewrote it accordingly. likewise intelligent design which i will get to later.Richard Jensen 23:09, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
Thanks, I think a consensus may reach soon. Anyways, what's "Niebuhr"? (from the edit summary on Ann Coulter) Yi Zhe Wu 15:18, 27 May 2007 (CDT)
Agreed. NY Times mentioned Reinhold Niebuhr yesterday and I was thinking of him. Leading American theologian c. 1920s-1960s.[1] Richard Jensen 15:37, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Can I interest you in some collaboration?

Richard, I have been exploring some pediatric topics , and keep brushing up against the concept of infant mortality. Never a party subject, certainly, but obviously important not only in clinical considerations of infant health, but also in analysis of societies, history etc, etc. Anyway- you had mentioned that you are interested in Demographics. I have not had formal training in epidemiology, except for an NIH traing grant fellowship where I did some research, and have had none in demographics, but am open to learning. Are there any articles that you might be interested in starting together? Nancy Sculerati 19:09, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Good. I have already started Infant mortality. Please start Life expectancy and I will join you. This is not something I know about, so I will be looking it up as we go. I need you to act as a guide, please. Nancy Sculerati 21:35, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Demography workgroup v the subject

Richard, I am so pleased to read these new artices on demography you have added, and -before I get to why I just took an action that I'm sure did not please you (removing Demogrphy workgroup as a category) I'd like to gush on a little more. :-) I have ordered some current texts on Demogrphics and Epidemiology, and I am very excited intellectually about the chance to tune my understanding of these subjects while applying that knowlege to the health science articles in CZ. I am even more excited about the chance to collaborate with you and Martin, since I think that the three of us, with our different backgrounds, could really do some work to be proud of- also, on a selfish level, it is a great opprtunity for me to have such teachers in the areas of subjects that I approach as a physician and biologist who arrive there from a learned position in the humanities and social sciences. So-now, the workgroup. When the workgroups were set up here they were made broad. I really didn't get involved in that, except fopr proposing the healing arts and health sciences workgroup as separate entities. That was for practical reasons of being able to have groups that could approve articles without inherent conflict or paradox - and to allow editorship to be had by alternative medicine experts as well as health science experts. Now, to invent a new workgroup like Demographics is a hard sell, not the least because I would not have the qualifications to be an editor in it. There are other reasons as well but I would fight for this workgroup if I thought that it would be the pragmatic means to produce great approvable articles in that subject. It seems to me that the preferred means to that goal-which I hope we share- is to class articles honestly according to existing workgroups. If an article that focuses on a demographic approach is fairly in the health sciences workgroup, the history workgroup, and the sociology workgroup (and it is a very few articvles that I can think of that would not clearly qualify for all 3), then we have three editors between us that can nominate right now. I am trying very hard to be fair and just as approvals editor and so it has to be that if I write something in one of those articles that is "pure health science" then I think another health science editor is going to have to nominate it for approval and not me, in other words, it is not a good thing to bypass another person who is an expert checking the work of an author, but under our present system there is so much overlap in demographics that, just like Biology was written by a bunch of Biology editors who constantly argued and refined until they agreed, I think we can do that here and end up with approved articles. I am really looking forward to it. I hope that you are. Nancy Sculerati 08:59, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Hi Richard, I would also like to congratulate you on your hard work on these demographic articles. Like Nancy, I am wondering whether there is a real need for a demography workgroup or if the goal is better achieved by collaboration across History, Biology and social sciences [we should really have a sociologist here, as well as me]. I have a few comments on organizational issues, which I will put on the relevant pages later today. Again, these are excellent contributions -- especially your account of the demographic transition -- and I hope that we will end up with really high-quality articles, each of us having contributed his/her own expertise. I will try to add some sections over the next week, although I am currently caught up in my own publication schedule and student work to be marked. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 09:33, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

OK. let's do without a demography workgroup for the good reasons explained here. :) Richard Jensen 19:31, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


Hey Richard, What's up with the sudden bunch of redirects? It seems like all the things you are redirecting from should have their own articles, not just funnels to related articles. -- Sarah Tuttle 21:16, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

yes they should have their own articles, but until then the redirects seem a useful way to help readers find info. Richard Jensen 21:21, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

No offense, I hope, but I've deleted the redirects. The implicit policy you suggest is not our policy--and never was for Wikipedia, which is perfectly reasonable on this point--because doing so will discourage people from writing articles about the topics in question, as well as misleading readers into thinking that all that CZ intends to say about a subject can be found at an article about what is only a related topic. I hope this makes sense. --Larry Sanger 22:38, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Crystal palace

I noticed your comment on Russel's talk page, are you willing to nominate?Nancy Sculerati 16:30, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

yes--let's nominate it (I'd have bees in my bonnet not to) Richard Jensen 18:02, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
Richard, I placed the tag on the article for you with a date of June 10 for approval. You have the option of changing the date if you like. If you decide to make changes to the article, just make sure Russell agrees with you and I think we can work it like last time. --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:30, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
It's a very good article and ready for approval. Richard Jensen 20:34, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
By the way, Richard, when changes are made, make sure to update the version number on the template so that we don't have to hunt you down when approval time comes! Thanks, --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:34, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi Richard, and thanks for the nomination. The entry has had some very careful copyediting since nomination, from several persons, and Chris Day was kind enough to add a paragraph near the end on the association of sport with the Crystal Palace. I have just given it another careful once over, and I think the needed work is complete. If you could have a look, and if you agree, change the version number (not sure how to do that myself!) to the Current revision as of (02:14, 6 June 2007), I would be grateful as ever! Russell Potter 22:41, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

p.s. , while the East Coast slept, numerous a few new copyedits were made, and some accidentally deleted external links restored. I think (!) it's as strong as can be. The current version is now that of (12:00, 6 June 2007) Russell Potter 07:04, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi Richard, as you are the nominating editor on Crystal Palace, could you stop and give an opinion on the edit disagreements that seem to be brewing over there. Also note that you have total control over the version that is approved according to which version you identify on the ToApprove template. Thanks. Matt Innis (Talk) 12:36, 8 June 2007 (CDT)


Allow me to say I think redirecting Xenophobia to Nativism is a poor decision. Nativism is a set of policy choices. Xenophobia is attitudinal. People groups can be xenophobic but not nativistic--I've lived such places! I hope you will remove the redirect. Stephen Ewen 22:58, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

interesting point but the Nativist article is also mostly attitudinal (Webster's 3rd says it's an "attitude or policy". Is there a difference in attitudes? Who is xenophobic but not nativistic--I can't think of anyone. American Heritage dictionary: Xenophobe = "A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples." Richard Jensen 23:06, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
Well, I could tick off a list of places/peoples who are one and not the other. Fiji is a great example, with a diverse population but supported by policy but whose people are are often xenophobic. One place I lived for two years, Saipan, has xenophobic natives but those same natives by policy encourage "foreigners" to enter the island for economic and other reasons (even genetic). South Africa is a historical example. Whites by policy depended on Blacks and Coloreds, including immigrants, but were xenophobic toward them, living segregated. I could go on. Basically, nativism is about policies at the governmental level, and also in anthropology and sociology is about a "back to roots" movement, e.g., the Negritude Movement in Haiti that stemmed up prior the Duvalier regime. Xenophobia can and does operate independently. Thus they cannot be equated. True, they can both occur in a place, e.g., Japan. But the deal breaker of equating the two is they are not treated as synonyms in available literature. I'd give the benefit of any doubt you have to leaving them separate and letting a sociology editor (when we get one) make any decision to treat them as one. Stephen Ewen 02:16, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
I checked--historians, sociologists and activists are using the terms as synonymous:
  • "Xenophobia, nativism and anti-Semitism lay behind a wide range of quotas..." Journal of the Canadian Historical Association 2000
  • [2]
  • "The continuing national discourse on immigration frequently evokes charges of "nativism, xenophobia, racism...." [3]
  • "Sure, there has been xenophobia, nativism, racism; but across American time..." JA Morone in PS: Political Science and Politics 1996
  • "the persistence of xenophobia, nativism, and racial..." Teacher's College Record
  • "NATIVISM by segments of the dominant population, characterized by (more or less overt) expressions of anti-Catholicism, xenophobia, and racism" Phylon (1967)
  • "These tensions came to the surface in the post-World War I wave of xenophobia and nativism that swept much of the nation" Law and History Review, 1997. Richard Jensen 03:28, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
So can we also redirect racism into nativism? Obviously not. Stephen Ewen 14:07, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Crystal Palace edit conflict

Hi Richard, just a brief note to alert you to my comments at the bottom of the Talk page for Talk:Crystal Palace. There, I have identified the specific version of the entry which I feel is the strongest, and truest to the subject, with all the changes that have strengthened the entry included. Russell Potter 12:57, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi again, Richard. Your latest post to Talk:Crystal Palace made me smile (albeit somewhat ironically). Have a look at the most recent version(s); whichever you decide is the one that should be approved, we'll all move along to the /Draft page and keep things lively (but civilized)! Cheers, Russell Potter 22:59, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
GO! freeze it now!  :) Richard Jensen 23:57, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
I'll go ahead and update the version to approve to todays version to avoid confusion later. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:15, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Crystal Palace

Hi Richard, I am not sure if you saw my earlier edit concerning Crystal Palace. If you did, just ignore this one, otherwise, your guidence would be appreciated as the only editor on the article. Matt Innis (Talk) 21:54, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Lincoln picture

[4] You may enjoy this article, but I am asking you to look at the great picture of Lincoln (Photo: Alexander Gardner, Library of Congress). This is an open copyright journal. Can we use that picture? Nancy Sculerati 16:02, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Shirley Chisholm

I wrote most of Shirley Chisholm (with some modification of others), just want to see how far it is from a complete article that would have a chance of approval. Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 22:06, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

First glance looks good! Suggestions: edit the photo so you can see her features; in bibliog, add date of publication and drop isbn (which is not very helpful); don't cite Crystal Reference Encyclopedia (it does not even give her name). Keep up good work!

Richard, the isbn leads to a pge where users can see the books,and in some cases, search through them, by clicking on either Barnes and Noble and Amazon. If the user buys the book from either site through that page, CZ gets referral fees. I don't want to push books on people, (and I get no money from CZ, just the opposite) but I am loathe to discourage putting ISBN on-please do so. Click a blue number and you'll see what I mean. Nancy Sculerati 22:32, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

I just modified the photo to increase brightness, don't know if it's enough yet. Also I agree that Crystal Reference can be dropped---and I just did that, plus all facts there used in the article can be found elsewhere. I did remove ISBN first, but after Nancy's message above I reinstated them. I'm still undecided on this, because ISBN does help people find the books on Amazon, should we have a rule/policy on it? Yi Zhe Wu 22:43, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
I think ISBN's are a royal waste of time (important books have many isbn numbers, one for each edition; old books have none) but was unaware of the $$ factor. My experience with H-Net is they got very little $ from the Amazon direct connection they used. (How would Amazon know someone reached their website from CZ??) Richard Jensen 00:27, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

It works, Richard-we just started and few are buying anything -but we are already earning hundred plus dollars a month.We've done that for May and June and haven't even had a full 4 week month yet. Those ISBN seem to work whether you put the 10 digit or the 13 digit ones in, meaning if you actually put them in from the book you are using, it should work. I like it, frankly, because I like to look at the covers and often -at least for the newer books, I can go to Amazon and open the book and read an excerpt and get an idea of its level and quality. Whatever ISBN you put in for a book, the other editions can be easily found in those sites. I often look at books in bibliographies that way whether or not I am on CZ and whether or not I buy them. Anyway- look at the main page. see there is some text that tells about the associates programs. If you click the links there, or through that page you get on the ISBN, when you go to the stores there is a code that identifies you as having come through a CZ link. If a purchase is made within a certain length of time- a few hours I think, then CZ get between 6-8%. No charge to the user (you). Same for you, in cost, as if you went there directly. I helped set it up and I promise you, it works. I think it is morally fine, as long as we don't turn our interface into a commercial billboard, and as long as we don't push sales or list books (or anything else) just to make money. We pick the books because they are good, or useful. But I personally love books and do buy them, and having experts come up with bibliographies is a help for readers, nothing to be ashamed of - I hope. What do you think? I respect your opinion. Nancy Sculerati 02:09, 10 June 2007 (CDT) (if there is no ISBN, just don't worry about it, list the book as is)

Nancy--thanks for the highly informative update. Speaking of usage, do we know how many clicks each CZ page is getting (not talking Amazon here, just ordinary page look-ats)? that would be useful info for the editors.Richard Jensen 02:22, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't. Alexdander Stos may know. Nancy Sculerati 03:41, 10 June 2007 (CDT)


No source. Kindly add. Stephen Ewen 04:43, 12 June 2007 (CDT)


Why is he not a serious scholar? His book is well researched and to my knowledge he is a respected historian. I am also not trying to smear FDR. I tried to add more info about Churchill and the Balkins but I had an edit conflict. I thought it was interesting info and he provides sources.

Eric Pokorny 00:41, 13 June 2007 (CDT) Fleming is not a serious scholar (he writes children's books on the one hand and, as here, polemics), He looks for snide remarks --a few words given without context--in the hope that readers will get the a negative impression of FDR. This quote for example, does not explain what FDR's policy actually was and does not tell readers that FDR was saying that he will abide the results of free elections in Poland and accept it if the Communists win. Richard Jensen 01:10, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

Fleming wasn't talking about Poland specifically but FDR’s policy towards Soviet expansion in East Europe, in particular the Balkins. FDR was repeatedly advised about Stalin’s intentions but didn’t want to open up another front. There are several reasons for this that are covered by Flemming. Flemming dedicates three pages covering FDR’s attitudes at Tehran and putting it in context but I am just unfamiliar with writing for encyclopedias. I want to put more detailed info about FDR’s attitudes but I just don’t know if the most important facts should be summarized and the more detailed info should be put on a separate Tehran Conference page. I can’t just put the context in the article without lengthening the section considerably. Either way I definitely would like to add more detail about the contrasting opinions of Churchill and FDR. However, the quote definitely appeared as a snide remark but I didn’t finish adding more info to balance it out.

Eric Pokorny 02:01, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

Great plan. You need to read the relevant chapters in the bibliography on foreign policy--those are sound, non-polemical books. Start with Friedel or Burns, I suggest. Richard Jensen 04:16, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

Fixed Great Depression page

Should look fine now. For help creating tables using "wiki code", see :) - Mike Mayors (Talk) 01:21, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

hey THANKS! That was fast  :) Richard Jensen 01:21, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

New articles for Approval?

Hi Richard,

Just a brief note -- I'm covering Approvals for Nancy while she takes a well-earned break -- are there any articles you know of in History, or other categories, which are nearing readiness for Approval, I'd be grateful if you could let me know. Also, I note that in Politics, where we don't have any really active editors, there has been some talk of looking for someone to nominate United States Electoral College -- if you could have a look at it, and see if it might reasonably be tagged for History, I'd value your view on whether it is indeed nomination-worthy.

Many thanks, as ever,

Russell Potter 11:21, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for your attention to United States Electoral College! It looks better already. What I'd done earlier but not mentioned was to tag the entry for History as well -- if you agree with that tag, you could already nominate it, as a History editor, whenever you feel it's ready (I can then place the Approval nomination tag for you if you like). As far as I'm personally concerned, you are eminently (over!)qualified to be a politics editor, but since I'm filling in for Nancy this week in my capacity as Assistant Approvals Management Editor, I'd rather not do it for you lest it be construed as an official deed, but you could ask the editorial staff about this, and then nominate it as a Politics editor, if you believe that to be the better course of action.
Best, Russell Potter 13:07, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Update: Richard, I just talked with Nancy and I believe she will address this; you should be all set. best, Russell Potter 14:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Let me know when you think the entry is ready for nomination. If you do decide to move it to the new name, best to do that beforehand, I think. Best, Russell Potter 10:27, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
I will stay out of the approval process on Electoral College because I made a lot of additions. Richard Jensen 13:12, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
OK, that's fine. Hope the dispute on citations can be resolved - it would be shame if yet another tempest in a teapot delayed growth of a good article. Are there any other entries that look ready for Approval to you? I'm anxious to have a couple of candidates in the pipeline soon.
I've just about finished my work on John Franklin; if you'd have a look at that one, I'd be grateful.
Russell Potter 15:20, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi Richard. Could you please have a look at Terrorism and see if it's ready for approval? I've worked hard on this article, being the only currently active author in the Military Workgroup besides you. Thank you. --Charles Sandberg 14:34, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

On second thought, it might not be ready yet. But have a look anyway. --Charles Sandberg 14:37, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
Yes, it's very good (I made a minor typo fix and link) should we get it approved? I suggest we should both be editors of the Military workgroup...there are none now. Richard Jensen 14:40, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
Yes we should, unless a Politics editor could nominate it. (If there are any). --Charles Sandberg 14:43, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

Now that your are a Military Editor, you can nominate Terrorism whenever you get the chance --Charles Sandberg 15:40, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

Richard, I wanted to ask if you'd take a look at John Franklin and see if you feel it's fit to be nominated for approval. Many thanks, Russell Potter 10:40, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

John Franklin is very good and I nominated it just nowRichard Jensen 23:52, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


I have not extensively study the Bible so I'm not sure about what is the correct Christian approach to abortion (myself is not a church-goer), and even my friends who are strongly Christian are divided on the issue. My opposition to abortion is from secular reasons, that vulnerable people should be protected (American government do give aid to the people in poverty, so why not the unborn?) Yi Zhe Wu 22:10, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

The "Abortion" article in the Catholic Ency (1907) is very revealing. Western culture for 2000+ years has identified birth as the time when personhood and rights begin. The rteligious right is trying to change that. Richard Jensen 22:18, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
But I thought that before Roe was decided, abortions in U.S. are regulated in a federalist framework, which states had total control but feds had no business in it. It is within states' broad police power conferred by the Tenth Amendment, and I assumed that is the founding fathers' intent. So even a pro-choice person would lament the loss of federalism after Roe if he actually take founding fathers' vision seriously. It's just my superficial understanding of the Constitution, correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks!
  • Also from that link you gave me, it says the Visigoths punish abortionist with death penalty. Yi Zhe Wu 22:29, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
Back in 1780s abortion was not illegal. The Row v Wade said the woman has federal rights to privacy that state governments cannot infringe by their use of police power. Visigoths-- well they have a poor reputation as humanitarians. :) Richard Jensen 22:39, 24 June 2007 (CDT)


Wow, that was a balancing act. The central difficulty: In the case of lightly paraphrased material, where does the line between copyright infringement (a constabulary issue) and content (an editorial issue) lie? There's probably no definitive answer except to work in-team. See my reply at Talk:Tactics. By the way, if you are interested in nominating Onslow Beach, I would not protest. I know the gallery is particularly nice. ---Stephen Ewen 03:09, 27 June 2007 (CDT)


I will continue to work on this article. --Charles Sandberg 19:14, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Richard, good to hear about Terrorism! What you need to do now is look at the approval process section that describes who can approve] and make sure it qualifies. Once you have done that, then I copy this entire text to the top of the talk page:

|url = 
|now =
|date =

To prepare the template, simply copy the above code and paste it to the top of the article's talk page. Then make the following replacements:

url = the location in the page history where the version-to-approve lives. The sysop will paste this and only this version into the main page

now = the date and time when the template is added. Use ~~~~~ (five tildes) to let the computer generate it automatically.

editor = the username of the person who did the approval (or who nominated the article on behalf of a group of people)

editor2 = second editor (optional but must use before editor3 if only two editors approved)

editor3 = third editor (optional but must use before editor4 if only three editors approved)

editor4 = fourth editor (optional)

group = must be an existing workgroup

group2 = second workgroup (optional but must use before group3 if only two workgroups)

group3 = third workgroup (optional)

date = format yyyymmdd

If you have made all the correct replacements, then all the links in the template should appear blue. None should appear red.

Then when I have filled out the box, I delete the instructions from the bottom. You might need some help with the version, but we'll cross that bridge if we have to. If you want to go ahead and do that much, I'll stand by. --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:30, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Ok let's go with approval

Good! The version is this one (100127060). We have to put the actual number, otherwise the pointer keeps going to the actual article even when somebody makes edits on the draft. This is where we get the version number for the "current" version. The way to find it is to click on the 'history' tab and go to the lastest diff. It should bring you here. Then you have to click on the previous version (see where it says Revision as of 21:36 -click on that). You should see something that says "newer version->" (click on that). That will bring you to the URL for the latest version.. you copy the verion URL and notice the date, too. See it? --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:55, 29 June 2007 (CDT)


Though drug might be a minor issue, but Bush's admin was challenged in an important case about drug policy, so I'm wondering whether it ought to be mentioned? Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 14:14, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Bush himself had very little to do with it--a million things happened and we should focus on those central to Bush White House. Richard Jensen 14:30, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Shirley Chisholm

I guess I have done what I can on Shirley Chisholm article, how far actually is it from being approved? Or what else can be added on it? Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 22:41, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

It's good and I'll start the approvals. Nice job! Richard Jensen 23:01, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
Thank you! If approved it will first approved article started by me. History is fun, isn't it? Yi Zhe Wu 09:32, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


Hi Richard,

Agree with you wholeheartedly about Oriental -- sigh! -- somehow I can't resist a debate, even one which ends up being a distraction. My thought in re-arranging Oriental and Orient was to distinguish what seemed merely a lengthy sociolinguistic entry about the use of the term "oriental" from question of the history of Western conceptions of the "Orient" which seemed a different matter entirely. However, it is hard, when doing revisions piecemeal, to avoid the old garbage-in garbage-out problem.

Oddly enough, most of the more polemical bits in Oriental were written by the fellow who sees himself "defending" the term; he feels they show the absurdity of the claimed "PC' views. I'll let others judge that -- I've no time to carry on the debate anyway.

At any rate, perhaps what we really need most here is an entry on Orientalism, which could take benefit from Said's lifetime of work in the area, and put the historical, and political, and even the linguistic pieces of this Humpty Dumpty subject together again.

All that said, your new start is excellent -- I am cheered to think a better article will now be possible.

Cheers, Russell Potter 17:05, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

Russell--we're in full agreement here. The natural place for an article is under "Orientalism." The right-wing quibbles are worth about 3 sentences. Richard Jensen 17:08, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

I encourage argument by refutation or an argument of reason. I reject an argument by deletion or an argument of authority. I'm quite taken aback by the brazen PC POV this article now represents. Will Nesbitt 13:52, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Not sure what the problem is...the article was full of irrelevant stuff and was not encyclopedic. I cleaned it up by 1) dropping everything not on topic; 2) adding the latest scholarship. Richard Jensen 14:03, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
It's hard to believe that this is said in good faith when you have elected to leave in pornographic and bellydancing references, but eliminate Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity Employment references. What you have done is represented a single POV in a multiple POV article. Eliminating references you don't agree with doesn't do anything to establish the opinion you represent as the only opinion. Edward Said has one opinion on the subject. Robert Bork and Diane Ravitch have another opinion on the subject. As with the references above, you choose to ignore those opinions which do not jive with your belief-set. What you seem to label irrelevant seems to be anything which does not support your narrow opinion. Will Nesbitt 07:54, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Classics articles ready for approval

Hi Richard, I have some articles that I think are ready to be nominated for approval. We only have one editor in the classics workgroup, and Catherine doesn't seem to be around at the moment. So if you think the articles are okay, feel free to nominate them. See the list here. Cheers, —Arne Eickenberg 17:20, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

No problem. My last Latin class was in 1955, but I guess things haven't changed much. :) Richard Jensen 17:32, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Dr. Jensen, I am very sorry, but since you are not a Classics Editor, you lack the authority to approve these particular articles. I greatly appreciate the "let's get this done" sentiment, though. --Larry Sanger 21:43, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, mea culpa. As you've probably read, I asked him to nominate the articles. —Arne Eickenberg 02:57, 5 July 2007 (CDT)


Richard, it's terrorism approval day. I notice thatt here are a couple of edits after your pointer date. If you want them added, go ahead and update the pointer and I'll wait till later this afternoon (for me) before I perform the mechanics of approval. Let me know if you need help figuring out which version is the right one. It's tricky, but once you figure it out, you never forget. Thanks again. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:48, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Wait a second, fellows, please. This article is unusually important and it will be picked apart ruthlessly. If there are bad mistakes (including mistakes of omission) in it, count on those mistakes being exposed publicly. So it must be top-notch. For that reason, I want to find someone who is an actual terrorism expert to approve it, i.e., someone who has published a fair bit about terrorism per se. Just any old Politics Editor will not do, in this case. No offense, I hope; I'm sure you can understand my concern. --Larry Sanger 11:17, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, I think we should still follow our stated policy here on Approvals -- but perhaps we could extend the Approval date a bit and call in a second opinion? If so, might I suggest Michael Nacht at UC Berkeley? He's their Aaron Wildavsky Dean and Professor of Public Policy at the Goldman School of Public Policy, an expert on terrorism, and has served on the U.S. Department of Defense Threat Reduction Advisory Committee. I don't know him personally, but have heard him speak and he would be a top-drawer person to contact; his e-mail is mnacht[at] Russell Potter 11:28, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
I think it's a good idea to call in a second opinion, but I want to clarify that on this topic in particular, and other especially sensitive topics, we will not approve an article unless by a bona fide expert in the subject--not just someone who has general (albeit high-level) background in an area. We can (and probably should) write this into policy: articles on sensitive topics must be approved by people who actually specialize in the topic. I'm open to debate, but I'm acting as editor-in-chief here, not as a constable.
I would hope, actually, in the interest of neutrality, that we might find at least one liberal and one conservative expert editor to review the article, but that's just a hope, not a requirement--at this stage, anyway. --Larry Sanger 11:51, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
Let me add that I have published on terrorism, edited a paper encyclopedia that covered the War on Terrorism (and the Cold War), and did the CZ article on 9-11. Richard Jensen 16:06, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
This is good enough for me. Thanks for your patience. --Larry Sanger 19:00, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Hello Richard, again it is Terrorism approval date. There have been several edits since your nominated version. Please check to make sure I get the right version. Thanks. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:04, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

OK, I just updated the approval. we're go for approval. Richard Jensen 22:06, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

John Franklin

Approved! Another one for your belt buckle ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:08, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Referencing books

I notice you editing the layout of the bibliography on Coal Mining: History. It might be usefull to use the 'Cite book' template to help you do this. For example, the following code:

{{cite book
  | last = Mumford
  | first = David
  | authorlink = David Mumford
  | title = The Red Book of Varieties and Schemes
  | publisher = [[Springer-Verlag]]
  | series = Lecture notes in mathematics 1358
  | year = 1999
  | doi = 10.1007/b62130
  | isbn = 354063293X }}

Creates this: Mumford, David (1999). The Red Book of Varieties and Schemes. Springer-Verlag. DOI:10.1007/b62130. ISBN 354063293X. 

For more info see wikipedia Templage:Cite_book. There are other similar templates available for other media too. Derek Harkness 04:50, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

thanks for the tip. Take a look by the way at which I'm thinking of switching to. Richard Jensen 04:57, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
Zotero looks interesting. I'll certainly try it out once I get the net installed into my new house. I'm currently working out of an internet cafe. Derek Harkness 04:33, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Prohibition of alcohol, United States

Prohibition of alcohol, United States, just wrote the whole article, any criticisms/suggestions? Yi Zhe Wu 11:36, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Joan of Arc

I shouldn't assume that you want to update the version number.. would you do the honors. --Matt Innis (Talk) 18:59, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Matt-- can you handle this. My role is nominal (ie nominating). Richard Jensen 19:42, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Approved! --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:54, 10 July 2007 (CDT)


You justified your deletion of my text in Orientalism with:

Said dominates all discussions; please cut out the POV

How does any one man dominate all discussions in any field of study. Freud, Einstein, Aristotle, and Jesus just a few names on a long list of giants in their respective fields, but not one of these men dominate all discussions. To claim that any of these men dominate all discussions is POV. Please stop lecturing me and start trying to figure out what I'm trying to communicate. I'm quite well acquainted with the line of thinking you are trying to push as "dominant over all". Will Nesbitt 19:47, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

please read a few of the relevant books and articles before editing an article. Richard Jensen 22:24, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.

My position is that only knowledgeable people should edit on CZ, and that they should avoid POV. Richard Jensen 07:06, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
Then we are in agreement on that. But I'm not sure why you only want to represent one narrow POV. Will Nesbitt 16:12, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
Will, no one is insulting you. Richard and myself and other editors here are all committed to impartiality. There are criticisms of Said's views from both within and without the fields of history and postcolonial studies, and these are, or will be, given fair play. But the 30 years since Said's book have been, within the academy, very significant years, with hundreds of books and thousands of journal articles, and many new theorists following in the wake of Said's work. It's a significant body of work and knowledge, and within this field Said's is still the groundbreaking work, referenced by nearly everyone, both his critics and his admirers.
This is not a "narrow view," it's the view of a large and significant body of scholars and scholarship. Now, understandably, outside of academia, there are all kinds of folks who might come upon some of this work and, reading it out of context, reject it with a broad brush. That's their right. But what we want to do here at CZ is present an accurate outline of this field of study and work, so as to inform people and suggest to them the shape of current debates, so they can make up their own minds. The fact that some critics of what they see as 'political correctness' have broad feelings against not only Said, but also against other modern postcolonial critics (say, Frantz Fanon, Gayatri Spivak, Larbi Sadiki, or Chandra Mohanty) is a notable fact about the popular understanding and reception of this body of scholarship, but that doesn't necessarily make it a significant claim within the body of academic work described here. Russell Potter 17:12, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.

Vietnam War

You might want to check/update the Vietnam War link on your User Page.Will Nesbitt 19:34, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Port Arthur massacre

Post removed by author

I am sorry for the impoliteness of my message above, and I apologize if it has offended you. Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 15:03, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
Richard, I have temporarily moved the article to your user space. You are welcome to do with it what you like, including placing it back into mainspace. --Matt Innis (Talk) 23:16, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Annotated bibliography of WWI is inspiring good work

Thanks very much. Very inspiring [5] Andries 23:22, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

) Richard Jensen 10
50, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Mayr upgraded

See the edit here Chris Day (talk) 23:22, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

thanks! Richard Jensen 23:29, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

"Supporting scientists" rephrasing

Hi Richard, I note your changes to the article heading "Supporting scientists" in the Young earth creationism which raised some issues for me:

  • As a result of your change I perused the list on the website at more length and found that while some, indeed, only had technical training in some area of science, others are, or were for a significant length of time, practising professional scientists in every acceptable sense of the word. I don't see an adequate reason for eliding this fact in the article.
  • The title "Supporters" on its own does not convey the original purpose of the sub-topic—which was to note persons with established scientific credentials who believe in Biblical creation—"supporters" would include everyone regardless and so adds no value to the article. I have changed it to "Notable supporters" which I believe should satisfy all shades of opinion and adds further scope to the subtopic to include notable non-scientists (e.g. public figures).
  • The list in question is, in fact, not a list of people who "support Answers in Genesis' position" (which would cover numerous other topics besides Biblical creationism) but those who "support Biblical creationism" (another name for young Earth creationism); I believe this was intentional so as to acknowledge that people on the list may not necessarily support all Answers in Genesis positions but, at the very least, support some form of Biblical creationism (that may itself not necessarily coincide with Answers in Genesis on every point). I have, therefore, reverted to the original statement in the article to reflect this fact.

I admit there is a need to convey in the CZ article that not every person on the list is a scientist by profession but it is proper for this article to draw attention to those (regardless of their beliefs) on this list that are. As our purpose on Citizendium is not to advocate or denigrate a topic but remain neutral, any objections to the use of the word "scientist" simply because a person is thought to believe in an unscientific theory is not appropriate.

If, consequent to the comments above and subsequent amendments to the article, you still feel a better phrasing could be achieved, please let me know. Many thanks. Mark Jones 01:27, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

I went through all the names and bios too, and the great majority gave religious and non-scientific reasons for their beliefs. Very few seem to have published scientific papers about creation. Ther promoters are implictly claiming that science supports their views, and this is an extreme interpretation that CZ should not appear to support. Richard Jensen 10:50, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

I copied this section over to Talk:Young_earth_creationism for the article so others can benefit (and participate if they want to). Hope that's OK with you. Mark Jones 05:44, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

Re "facts" and "opinions"

Regarding what you said on Talk:Bill Clinton, see this section of the neutrality policy. Note the specific definitions given there of "fact" and "opinion." See also the section that follows that one (titled "Expert knowledge and neutrality"). --Larry Sanger 03:34, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

Dog history

Richard, I'm about to add the History Workgroup back onto famous dogs. The reasoning here seems perfectly obvious, and if you want to undo this (again), I'm going to stipulate as Editor-in-Chief that you must answer the following argument persuasively. Famous dogs include, by definition, dogs that are historically famous. Indeed, if you examine the actual list of famous dogs, you will see that currently, all of the "non-fictional dogs" have small roles in history. But that they have small roles in history does not obviate the fact that these are, still, historical topics. As such, some of the relevant experts will be historians. --Larry Sanger 03:43, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Please revert yourself. A history article on the topic would be very different indeed, and I suspect the authors would be most unhappy with it. Kepp well enough alone, please.
Just noticed the reply. First, can we agree that the topic in question, "famous dogs," is a legitimate topic for CZ? We might now make it a subpage of dog, though. But, as long as we assume it's a legitimate topic unto itself, the topic of famous dogs necessarily includes a lot of history. So, why not make it a historical article for the most part, which, after all, it should be? I don't mean to be dogmatic (forgive the pun). We should think through what the main topics are, here, and what subpages we'd like to have: perhaps dog, dog/Catalogs/Famous dogs, and then history of dogs or dog history. If we have famous dogs at dog/Catalogs/Famous dogs, then it seems the history workgroup wouldn't be assigned since it wouldn't be assigned to dog. --Larry Sanger 18:23, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
Larry-- history articles have to pass history standards and this one does not come close. It has the quality of a children's page in a newspaper. Fala, for example, was a major campaign issue in 1944 because the GOP said FDR accidentally left it behind in Alaska then sent a destroyer to retrieve the dog. FDR used incident to ridicule GOP. The author seems unaware of that--a level of unawareness that is crippling for a serious encyclopedia. Richard Jensen 18:51, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
Here's a dilemma then. If the article is really that bad that it can't be fixed, you as history editor should recommend that it be deleted (or taken down for major revision). You can do that. But if the article can be improved, you should bear in mind that it is not "the author's article," but CZ's article. You seem to assume that you don't have the right to edit it. Well, the solution is not to say "this isn't up to par by history standards, so it shouldn't be in the history workgroup," but to step in as a history editor and say what's wrong with it, so it can be improved. Of course, if it can't be improved see dilemma horn #1. --Larry Sanger 20:23, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
All I'm asking is that it not be called History. Richard Jensen 20:30, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
But it is history. Sorry, it's a fact. We don't have a category like "popular history" or "history of the quality of a children's page in a newspaper." We just have history. -- Or, like I said, we could put it on a subpage of dog. Then it wouldn't be in the history group. Maybe we should do that anyway... --Larry Sanger 22:26, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
Larry, please ask your historians what "history" is. The mission of CZ is to have high quality material at the college level, which excludes popular lore that does not meet the tandards. Richard Jensen 23:57, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
Dr. Jensen, you failed to understand my point. Anyway, this debate is for the dogs.  :-) --Larry Sanger 15:26, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but traditionally (or at least the degree program I went through) college history classes deal with cultural/political/military history. But, obviously, everything has history to it - history of dogs, history of biology, history of pillowcases, whatever. Perhaps it would be worth considering splitting the history workgroup into a traditional workgroup and a popular workgroup? Right now, the history workgroup is the largest workgroup we have, and I think it's because you can argue that everything has a history.Todd Coles 15:07, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

History of dogs is OK with me if it is done seriously. I would expect to see coverage of:
  • dog roles (work, show, pets, hunting, police, seeing-eye),
  • breeding,
  • vet care (& rabies),
  • feeding (see the 2007 Chinese poison pet food scare),
  • cruelty (see the Vick case, animal rights philosophy),
  • medical and lab use (see PETA),
  • shows & competition, training
  • images in myth, art & literature (Jack London), & movies
  • anthropology--these topics would be studied by actual research into standard secondary sources--try On God and Dogs: A Christian Theology of Compassion for Animals by Stephen H. Webb; Oxford University Press, 1998; Stanley Coren, "Dogs and People: The History and Psychology of a Relationship." in Journal of Business Administration and Policy Analysis. 1996.

No, we aren't going to have "popular" versions of academic subjects. We'll still welcome "popular" information, though. The editors to whom that information is assigned will have to decide what to do with it. --Larry Sanger 15:27, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

Edward I

Hi Richard, I thought since you seem to be the most active History editor you would be interested in looking into approving Edward I. I'm sure a few things needs to be done to reach approval standards but could you take a look at it please? thanks. Denis Cavanagh 10:05, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

Denis--very fine work indeed! I started the approval process, to finish Friday Richard Jensen 12:31, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

Nathanael Greene/Thomas Paine

Dr. Jensen, I would like to solicit your opinions on two articles I have written - Nathanael Greene and Thomas Paine. I feel like I've worked them both as far as I can without having some fresh eyes go over them, and I'd like to know what needs to be done to push these on to developed, and then approved status. Thanks! --Todd Coles 10:01, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Hope I'm not butting in here but Paine especially looks very good. Nice work! Denis Cavanagh 14:35, 17 August 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for taking a look at those for me. --Todd Coles 08:35, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
happy to help--keep up the good work! Richard Jensen 08:45, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Nathanael Greene is approved. Another one for you gunbelt! --Matt Innis (Talk) 13:21, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Fair use proposal

You are perfectly free to construct an alternate fair use proposal.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 04:04, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

It's unclear where this proposal came from? what is the justification for restrictions on fair use? And please unblock the page so I can edit it too. Richard Jensen 04:05, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
As I stated, it is one proposal. I am fully aware you disagree with it, which is why you should feel free to make an alternate proposal rather than changing this one into a proposal other than it is.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:42, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
I think that if you draft a proposal you should be prepared to argue for it and defend its specific parts. Start with explaining where it came from and what legal sources you used. Explain why you are hostile to fair use rights. Richard Jensen 17:37, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Franklin bibliography

Do you mind if I take the Franklin bibliography from your website and incorporate it into the article? --Todd Coles 16:24, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

yes, please do! Richard Jensen 16:28, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Edits to articles

Richard, I would like to draw your attention to two matters in your edits. Firstly, it is not necessary for you to make a statement regarding copyright status for external links, as you did for the Japan article and others. Secondly, please consider the descriptions you provide in the history logs when you edit articles. It is not appropriate to describe, for example, this (Irish War of Independence), this (Michael Collins) or this (Ireland (state)) as "tweaks" or "trim minor details"; these often involve substantial deletion, additions and reworking of the articles and their approach to the subject, which may need further discussion on the Talk pages. The danger is that you mislead others into assuming that your contribution is nothing more than a minor edit, rather than a significant contribution. John Stephenson 05:10, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

I confess you're right about my "tweaks" -- I will try to be more lucid. I am always open to discussions on the talk page, and I try to provide footnotes for the more important additions. (The articles in question were very vague indeed about sources, so I have provided comprehensive bibliographies. As for the non-copyright status of the links to Country Reports, that is useful information for users (and authors). I hope our authors will materials into the article. I just looked at the Collins article and see that I did not delete anything (except a reference to de Valera's views), but instead added a great deal of new material and incorprated all of what had been there. Richard Jensen!)

Irish Free State

I"m not sure whether Collins was irrelevant to the Irish Free State article, considering his murder at Beal na Blath both intensified the Civil War as well as energised the Free State forces. Never to mention as a Free State leader, his assassination is quite relevant to an article about the Irish Free State. What do you think, room for compromise? Denis Cavanagh 06:54, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Collins is ****. I agree his assassination should be mentioned for its impact, but not the details of when and where. ok? Richard Jensen 06:57, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Collins is what sorry??? Perhaps I had overdone it with the whole 'portraying him as a hero' thing, more neutral heads must prevail! Denis Cavanagh 10:01, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

PS - should Beal na Blath be mentioned in his biographical article? Denis Cavanagh 10:03, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

I meant to say Collins is very important. :) Richard Jensen 12:49, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Where do you get this stuff!

You are awesome![6] You must live in a library :-) I am sooo jealous ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:28, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

well ,the MacNeil book was my very first book review, so I remember it well. :) Richard Jensen 22:34, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm going to venture that Richard has proxy access to everything the U. of Illinois library subscribes to. It's a wonderful thing to have. I have access to everything the Florida Univ. system has, and for another month or so the U. of British Columbia library. Wonderful to have indeed! I appreciate and think its great when Richard places static links to materials, even though they may be subscription only. If one is on a campus somewhere or otherwise has access to a library's usual subscriptions, more often than not the click goes right through.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 01:22, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
I bet Richard is some kind of book pirate! Literarrrry! Just kidding, Richard. --Robert W King 01:38, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
My favorite sources are JSTOR (via google), Questia (I bought a subscription for $100), and ABC-CLIO (I'm on their editorial board). I worked at the Newberry Library in Chicago for years--back in the days when the books were chained down. I always wanted to unchain them. Richard Jensen 01:54, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
I think libraries should have large areas that "feel" like a really big Starbucks, warm, relaxed, and inviting, with cushy chairs and sofas, always open till midnight, and with coffees and teas always brewing. They are just entirely too stuffy, and staffed by some awfully stuffy people sometimes.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 03:16, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Richard III

While I agree with you that Richard III needs a few tweaks to be CZ quality, I did google for several phrases and if it was copied form somewhere, it wasn't a web publication. The up-loader claims to be the author (see Talk:Richard_III/Permission). Applying the same rules as I did for your articles that you had in the past uploaded to wikipedia, it should be graded 1, 2 or 3. I only graded your articles as 4 if some wikipedia authored content was copied over with your article and the article has subsequently not been edited significantly. Derek Harkness 07:09, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

I think you're right it's not copied from the web. But it's a polemic that does not reflect scholarship and violates encyclopedia standards. Maybe it should be deleted or put in storage until it gets fixed or totally redone. Not the author came from a polemical group to CZ just to insert this viewpoint. Richard Jensen 07:38, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Jane Addams

Approved! You actually got to have one approved that you weren't nominating. Good work. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:12, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

hey thanks!!! Richard Jensen 22:32, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Viva Kennedy

What's you 2 cents on this article by Burt? --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:57, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Did you see this question? --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:32, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Yes, I just now cleaned it up a bit and formatted it. It's a good article on an important topic by a leading expert and is NOT self-promotion.Richard Jensen 20:36, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

ref your own work

Hi Richard, do you ever place your own work in a Bibliography here on Citizendium? --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:16, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

yes I do :) Richard Jensen 20:23, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Okay, just checking ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:31, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
And that is contrary to policy. But we will be clarifying policy in the future. Richard, as an editor, you really ought to set an example by asking others to add your own works into bibliographies. This is to avoid the appearance of self-promotion--if left unchecked, self-promotional bibliographic entries, by highlighting work that is in fact not the most important, threatens to make our bibliographies unreliable, in the long run, as I'm sure you could agree. Of course, I have no doubt that your own work is always worthy of inclusion. Which is why I've turned a blind eye in your case--which of course I have noticed.  :-) --Larry Sanger 20:46, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
the inadequate phrasing of the "self promotion" rule ought to be changed immediately, and editors should have the main responsibility to handle the self-promotion rule. Otherwise we will alienate what CZ needs most: experts who publish in their fields. Richard Jensen 21:03, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
You have a point (as an editorial council member myself). I would think it would be hard for you guys to write without referencing your own work. In fact it would be necessary to put it in the bibliography so others can see why your point of view is what it is, because a book has much more detail. Other editors may not be familiar with the reference, and personally it does sound a little 'self promotional' for Richard to 'ask someone else to do it'. I wouldn't ask. I doubt Anthony would ask either. It certainly needs consideration. Is this a rock solid rule, or something that we brought from wikipedia, where it might be needed more. Maybe we can tweak this rule some to fit our needs. But this is not the place to discuss it. Back to the forums.. --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:14, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I agree that it might need to be changed. This hasn't actually proven to be a problem much in the past, so I haven't regarded it as a high priority. I would welcome a proposal about a policy change, as long as it is rather more nuanced than, say, "If someone has published something using a university press or peer-reviewed journal, then he may put it in a bibliography himself." This won't do the job, because it virtually invites people to promote their own work, even when it is not very important. How can we prevent that, particularly considering that there are many fields where there aren't enough editors, yet, to watch carefully. Perhaps, anyway, we should take this to the forums. Until we change, however, this is our policy. --Larry Sanger 21:19, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
What about just putting some kind of disclaimer in the reference itself? As long as whatever it is that's being referenced is in fact relevant (and this should be verified by a second editor or whatever) source material... perhaps we need a CZ body that verifies self-referential works? --Robert W King 21:39, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Following the spirit of the rule, I think self-promotion is pretty easy to differentiate from the contributor who happens to cite themselves here and there in the course of writing about their expertise.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 23:17, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Thid discussion is now on the Forum at [7] Richard Jensen 23:26, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

MORE: It's about intent as evidenced through the pattern of contribs. For example, why would one contribute to an article only a link to their book? Why would one link to amazon for their own book but not the other book cited?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 23:31, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

actually I was the one that made the link to Amazon, not the author. Richard Jensen 00:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Fine and good. I added the second book. One reason why this issue should not be editor purvey is that it is possible for it to fall into an "I'll scratch your back and if you scratch mine" sort of thing. I'm not saying this is the case here, but it is certainly conceivable that it develop.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 00:44, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
it's also possible to have hyperactive constables who drive good authors away by not consulting first. Richard Jensen 00:50, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


Of course! You found a better solution. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:08, 12 September 2007 (CDT)


Richard, I noticed that you removed a number of ship articles from not only the history, but also the military workgroup. Can you please explain that? If articles about navy ships--which are maintainable, it seems--don't belong in the Military Workgroup (if not also the History Workgroup), then where do they belong?

I will hold off reverting your de-categorization until I get an answer to this question. --Larry Sanger 18:39, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

P.S. Consider this a very firm albeit general rule: you may not remove all workgroup categories from an article, unless others are watching and debating the matter. This leaves the articles "orphaned." To do so is in a way to delete the articles from all editorial consideration, and that is not something that you may do singlehandedly without proper oversight.

Not to comment on your intentions, but I do notice the checklist still has those two categories. When Jitse's subpages bot runs it will take those cats off the article page anyway. They will remain in those categories. --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:10, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

Confederate States of America

Hello Richard - I am a new author with an interest in American history from the conclusion of the War of 1812 through the closing of the frontier (1815-1890). I am particularly interested in the Civil War. While I do not pretend to be an expert, I have read fairly widely on this period. I am intrigued by Citizendium’s intention to take a tack on content which is different from Wikipedia. I note that the article on Confederate States of America was brought over by you and is in a “developing” mode. Rather than tweaking the Wikipedia version, I have some ideas and would like to take a shot at recasting the topic (using Wikipedia facts, sources, and bibliographies as appropriate). I am currently working on a new outline and beginning an Introduction. It was not my intent to start with this subject, but it is a good one. Among others, I found the work of Robert Henry, The Story of the Confederacy, (which I added to the CW Bibliography), first published in 1931 with forward by Douglas Southall Freeman, to be most interesting. Tinged with sympathy for the South, it is nevertheless very informative. It will take me a bit of time to familiarize myself with the technical/ technological requirements of writing for Citizendium but looking forward to start. Do you concur? Bill Falter 14:27, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Bill--delighted to have you on board! yes we need help on the history articles. I wrote a lot of the Wikipedia article, which is why it's here. I would avoid the Henry book, was never based on new scholarship and always was "popular." I recommend our bibliography on the CSA. Emory M. Thomas, Confederate Nation: 1861-1865, 1979 remains an excellent starting point. Richard Jensen 15:50, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Dogs as food

Hehe, no worry! Old-time Tahitians ate dogs; maybe some of them still do. My French wife told me that it was served to her surreptiously a couple of times, but she recognized it. To my knowledge I never had any.... Hayford Peirce 00:51, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

I've lived on Saipan and-- Never mind. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:32, 20 September 2007 (CDT) - the photo has gotta be the roughest part there.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:35, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
I live in the north east of China, near to the border with Korea. Dog meat is popular in Korea and the immigrant restaurants here sell it. Most BBQ restaurants have dog on the menu. Some of the butchers have skinned dogs hanging up by the neck next to the chickens and ducks. I think the pictures on wikipedia are quite tame. I'm could take some better ones for our articles. As for recipes, marinade in soy sauce and vinegar with some garlic, ginger, sichuan pepper and some chili then BBQ or grill. Apparently, brown dogs taste best. I haven't plucked up the courage to try for myself yet though. Derek Harkness 03:34, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
Yes it is true, I lived in China for more than a decade and it was not hard in a city to find a restaurant serving dog meat. Btw Derek since you live there, just wanna know if CZ is censored there? From what I know right now China has a dismal record on freedom of speech and other rights. Yi Zhe Wu 14:09, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
No problem accessing CZ, or most wiki sites, from china. The main Wikipedia goes in and out. One month it will be blocked and one month it wont be. Other sites like wikitravel are fine. Derek Harkness 12:41, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

Soviet Union

Hello - I intend to write an article on the Soviet Union - I've written a stub. I was told by Mr. Baldwin-Edwards to get in touch with you as you're apparently the main history guy. I also wrote a very broad overview of the history of Communist states on Communism, which I also intend to improve upon, with collaboration. What are your thoughts? --Vincent Garton 01:44, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

Vincent--great start! I'm glad to see you working on that and I will come in from time to time to do a little editing. Keep up the good work. Richard Jensen 10:20, 23 September 2007 (CDT)


Scanned from WHICH book, please, and a page number would be very nice too.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 21:00, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

back in the 1980s when teaching military history I xeroxed onto overhead transparencies hundreds of photos and images from many different library books and illustrated magazines like World's Work and Literary Digest. So I have a big file. This image I scanned in from the old transparency. It's probably on the web somewhere but my overhead copy is pre-web. The date of course is 1915-18. Richard Jensen 21:05, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
Here it is. :-) --Joe Quick (Talk) 23:10, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
hey that's impressive--and quick. Richard Jensen 23:31, 23 September 2007 (CDT)
Great, Joe.  :-) Richard, I certainly understand the situation you described, and appreciate that you have a fund of such images. It will help in the interest of getting photos well documented for readers and re-users if, in the future, you just go ahead and and say on the upload page something like "I scanned it from a book, pre-web--I don't recall which book." That way, no one has to bother you to ask what you've already said you don't know.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 01:23, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

See Image:WWI - Trench Warfare - Gas - Machine guns.jpg now. Now if only I could convince Richard why it is very useful for future persons to take a few extra seconds to give these images descriptive file names from the start. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 03:03, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Angola War

Sorry for my bad english.

I don't understand why Angola War isn't important. Angola War is the largest and biggest African war and very important to understand the fall of the apartheid.

--Ignacio Sánchez-Ferrero 10:28, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

I agree that it is important and I hope you write an article on it; I will help edit it.

on sources see [8] I can also send you some scholarly articles. Richard Jensen 12:57, 28 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks you for your opinion May I include Angola War in CZ:History Workgroup again?
--Ignacio Sánchez-Ferrero 04:10, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
no, we took it out because it's important in political history, but very minor in military history.Richard Jensen 13:24, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
May I discuss with a editor? --Ignacio Sánchez-Ferrero 05:38, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Fair use guidelines

Richard, I realise that you are sincere in your opinions, and I understand the reasons for your actions. The fact remains, that you cannot edit any page --let alone formal legal guidelines for CZ authors -- on your own cognizance. You are likely to plunge CZ into chaos if others follow suit: please discuss changes on the Talk page, and if you fail to convince others, please respect the status quo. We still have not resolved the previous dispute about PD image attribution, and you do not make my personal role in that any easier with the current situation. Best wishes --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:12, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, I thought we were intending that page for users' guidance. Nevertheless, my points are still valid about obtaining agreement on the Talk page. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:50, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Article re Robert Fogel book

Professor Jensen: Having read Robert William Fogel's book, The Fourth Great Awakening and the Future of Egalitarianism, twice through and repeated look-backs, and having been much impressed (though not convinced on every point), I wrote, for the Write-a-Thon, an article on the book and its arguments and themes: The Fourth Great Awakening and the Future of Egalitarianism (book by Robert William Fogel). I hope you will have time sometime to look at it and advise re your thoughts. I much benefited from reading your 'Awakenings' articles. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 22:42, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

great job! I was a commentator on Fogel's book at the Social Science History Convention panel on the book. I thought he was misguided. :) Richard Jensen 22:55, 3 October 2007 (CDT)
Thanks for the compliment. As the commentator on Fogel's book in the forum you referred to, do you have published analyses that one might include or refer to in the article? Aside, as somewhat of an idealist, I found inspiring Fogel's list of non-material resources necessary for self-realization. I think about them more after studying his ideas. He left off hunger for sharing one's knowledge, in my judgement. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 21:55, 5 October 2007 (CDT)
I don't think any of us on the panel published our comments. Fogel is a roman candle spurting ideas like crazy--that makes his book great reading. But the religious right is at the core of the current 4th Great Revival and it does not pursue the reforms he has in mind. It is hostile to equality, I think. Richard Jensen 21:59, 5 October 2007 (CDT)

Plymouth Colony

Professor Jensen, your page on the Plymouth Colony is a brilliant piece of work. I hope you don't mind, but I added one book to your wonderful bibliography, a book which I think is an enlightening read: George Francis Dow's Every Day Life in the Massachusetts Bay Colony (which I discovered when I lived in Salem, Ma.). If you, however, don't think this book is worthwhile (which would surprise me), then I am sorry if I "vandalized" your page.Jeffrey Scott Bernstein 06:02, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

hey thanks! I added a few more links to JSTOR and amazon. Richard Jensen 06:37, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Shirley Chisholm

Hello Professor Jensen, I just added subpages to the draft of this approved article, moving biblio to the subpage and add external link/related articles subpage. Can you take a look, suggest revisions, and consider re-approve the cluster? Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 12:08, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

it looks good. I'm not sure what the procedure is for re-approvals, but this deserves it. Richard Jensen 17:18, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Shirley Chisholm

I brought the subpages up to date so the mechanics of nominating are the same (go to the metadata page and enter your info under ToApprove section). As far as timing, especially when there is nothing controversial, you can decide on an appropriate date. For re-approval a range from one day to 3 days is what others have done, though I have seen as long as a week on the ones that have more editors that need to re-check the changes. --Matt Innis (Talk) 18:02, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Workgroups of approved articles

Richard, you cannot just change the workgroups of articles AFTER they have been approved! I have reverted your recategorization of Demographic transition. I am not opposed to changing it, but I expect some discussion about it on the Talk page or at least privately with me. If there are three disciplines, I would expect economics to be one of them for this topic.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 19:49, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

It was originally categorized as History, which is how I wrote it. Problem was that history got listed as #4 category, and the BOT cut it off at #3 without asking. The cats should be history, sociology and economics. So please blame the BOT. :) Richard Jensen 19:59, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
OK. the bot caused the problem, and then you made it worse! You changed it to health sciences, history and sociology! I will change it to history sociology and economics, if that is possible. OK? --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:03, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
yes, that works, thanks! Richard Jensen 20:07, 8 October 2007 (CDT)
I don't see any problem with Martin changing it from a constable standpoint, considering that the nominating editor is involved. Matt Innis (Talk) 20:12, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

Italo Calvino, bibliography

Ciao Richard,

I am (slowly) filling up a bibliography of Italo Calvino (Italo Calvino/Bibliography), an Italian contemporary writer. I know you are not a Literature editor, but it appears such guys substantially do not exist, and I thought History might be close enough... :)

Could you take a look to that list and comment on the format? I'm not used to fill such things, I suppose they could be substantially different from scientific bibliographies.

Thanks in advance, --Nereo Preto 05:12, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for the tip on Italo Calvino--I never met him (though we both published in the Italian history journal Passato e Presente). Your bibliography is excellent--just right! keep going. Richard Jensen 05:41, 11 October 2007 (CDT)

Your Civil War Article


Having known little about the Civil War, I'd like to say that I feel your article deserves approved status, and will go to the lengths of getting a petition going to see that it happens! I am doing an essay on this topic within the week and your article was a perfect run down of the subject matter. Denis Cavanagh 13:19, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

hey thanks! (the problem is that editors have to nominate other people's articles and i'm one of the few active history editors). Richard Jensen 13:32, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

History of Netherlands

Hallo Richard, I see that you concentrate on history (a field I'm a fond amateur in). I wrote a stub for my home country, Netherlands, with a few history sentences. Now, a fellow country man and colleague chemist added two historical sentences, (about 7 provinces in the 13th century and democracy), which I feel are completely wrong. I tried to convince my colleague but failed. Since it is presumptuous for me, not being a trained historian, to claim to be correct, I turn to you as a neutral and informed outsider. Would you be so kind as to have a quick look into the history of The Netherlands between, say, 1200 to 1581 (when our "declaration of independence" was issued), and change the stub as you see fit? I would rather see no history than wrong history, so if you agree with me but have no time to think of an alternative, you could do me a favor by discarding incorrect sentences. Thank you. --Paul Wormer 04:44, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Paul--thanks for the heads-up. I will investigate. Richard Jensen 04:54, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Good ole' Abe

I adjust the photograph for Abraham Lincoln and posted it on the talk page. Please review the photo and if you think it's a vast improvement, fill in the correct licensing information and put it on the front page ;). --Robert W King 23:05, 22 October 2007 (CDT)


Hello, I'm new to Citizendium & I'd like to finish an article I was working on from my stay at Wikipedia - Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598). First, I have to get the templates right, but I have no idea on how they work. Could you be of any help? Does the history work group here already have its own template for articles on wars & battles" Thanks. The template that I imported for now is at Template:Infobox Military Conflict. (Chunbum Park 23:46, 22 October 2007 (CDT))

Welcome aboard! yes I will be glad to help. As an author you don't have to worry about templates and stuff. It's a matter of EDIT and SAVE. It's also a question of titles. We are in startup mode and the titles of articles should be general. How about Korea and Japan -- click on that, click on EDIT, start writing, then click on SAVE. And we have an article! Please give it a try, and we'll fix any problems. Richard Jensen 05:52, 23 October 2007 (CDT)
Thanks. You mean, I should write about the war at the "Korea and Japan" page? (Chunbum Park 15:27, 23 October 2007 (CDT))
yes, exactly, I set up that page for you. Good luck! Richard Jensen 18:39, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

United Kingdom

I have emailed Larry concerning this new PD image policy, which was not agreed by anyone. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 07:56, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

good idea. Richard Jensen 07:59, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
Richard: stop deleting the text I wrote about what constitutes the UK and territories owned by the UK. These are major things. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:24, 24 October 2007 (CDT)
Martin-- these minotr places that are NOT part of the UK belong in a footnote in this article, which is about the UK, which is where I relocated them. Richard Jensen 23:25, 24 October 2007 (CDT)

Move request

Hello. I wish to move the 9-11 Attack page to September 11, 2001 attacks, as the title is obviously incorrect, firstly because it was more than just one attack, and secondly because "9/11" is more commonly used than "9-11", anyway. Constable D. Matt Innis told me to ask you to take a look at the situation and determine if the proposed move makes sense. If you have the time, please do. Happy editing! --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 22:34, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

My preference is for the current title. There was only one planned attack (with multiple parts) -[note that no one says "Pearl Harbor Attacks" even though there were multiple attacks] "9/11" has a slash that our software handles poorly. Richard Jensen 23:47, 27 October 2007 (CDT)


The Eisenhower article is very impressive. You have educated me on many details of this president I had never known of. Thanks and good job, professor. Yi Zhe Wu 15:38, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

Just one question, about the New Left. I remember Karl Hess was both a Goldwater adviser and a New Left activist. How did he reconcile these two? Yi Zhe Wu 15:40, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
Hess changed from one end to the other--at no time was he both. It was far more common to switch the other way (eg David Horowitz) Richard Jensen 15:47, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
this article tells Goldwater once personally said to Hess that the Old Right and New Left have a lot in common. unfortunately they didn't merge together. :\ Yi Zhe Wu 21:05, 2 November 2007 (CDT)

Thanksgiving and Plymouth Colony

I think the "Thanksgiving" section ought to be pulled out of Plymouth Colony and put into the article space at Thanksgiving (for a good start in the current stub), at the same time simplying the text about thanksgiving at the Plymouth Colony article and adding a wikilink.

What do you think? Yes? No? Advice? Questions? Thoughts? --Robert W King 18:09, 1 November 2007 (CDT)

agreed. there are 2 paragraphs that can be moved (but i'd keep the brief mention in the opening lede). Richard Jensen 19:23, 1 November 2007 (CDT)
Check the plymouth colony article difference for what I pulled out. --Robert W King 16:11, 2 November 2007 (CDT)

Radio Caroline

Greetings Richard, I noticed that you removed the Radio Caroline page from the history work group. I would like to point out that there is a powerful historical significance to Radio Caroline. It was a cultural phenomenon in Europe, and gained the largest audience of any pirate radio station, over 20 million listeners, including myself. Radio Caroline and the other offshore stations were instrumental in bringing about the emergence of the British rock music in the 1960's, in an era when the official British Government monopoly stations (BBC) would only play one hour of rock music per week. The overwhelming popularity of the pirates forced the UK government to deregulate broadcast radio in the UK, finally breaking the BBC monopoly. While I listened to Radio Caroline, I took it for granted, but I now realized that I was experiencing history in the making, a true social revolution. And Radio Caroline is the only pirate who still more or less survives to this day. Best regards, Charles F. Radley Charles F. Radley 20:25, 7 November 2007 (CST)

you make a good case for the popular culture and music role. It's just not what the history workgroup handles. Every field has its own history of course, and that is the appropriate workgroup. Richard Jensen 20:34, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Japanese invasions of Korea (1592-1598)

Hello Mr. Jensen, I can add stuffs to the intro that you've edited on, right? I'm quite afraid of the possible outcomes that might occur due to a "bold" approach. First, on your comment that this topic is not significant enough - you seem to agree that it is, I found this quote -

THE Japanese invasion of Korea (1592–98)... Toyotomi Hideyoshi (1536–98),1 was one of the most significant events in the long history of East Asia...invasion has recently been called Asia’s first regional “world war.” It marked the first time in Asian history that massive armies equipped with modern weaponry clashed on the field of battle.2 Moreover, unlike the Korean War of the 1950s, often called “The Forgotten War” by Americans scarred by the experience of Vietnam, Hideyoshi’s Korean War is still very much in the popular consciousness of both Korea and Japan, and to a much lesser degree, China as well. Shrines and memorials to heroes of this saga dot both the Korean and Japanese countrysides. Tourists are encouraged.......... view spectacular paintings, statues, and reconstructed turtleboats (ko˘bukso˘n) all over Korea. Admiral Yi Sunsin (1545–98), Korea’s leading naval commander during the invasions, is regarded as perhaps the single greatest hero in Korean history. - [Kenneth M. Swope, "Crouching Tigers, Secret Weapons: Military Technology Employed During the Sino-Japanese-Korean War, 1592–1598", The Journal of Military History 69 (January 2005): 11–42 © Society for Military History pg. 11-12]

Setting that aside, you wrote here "The war finally ended late in 1598 after the death of Hideyoshi as the Japanese withdrew."

I'm new here, so I'd like to be careful. You see, when I was in Wikipedia, "POV" or biased people would start quarrels on needless things & even the "arbitrators" and "admins" would be biased or would know little about this subject. Then I would be accused of being paranoic or too nationalistic or needlessly quarrelsome, etc.

Japan’s technological and tactical advantages were such that had Hideyoshi not died in 1598, then his dream of creating an empire in mainland Asia may have been realized,12 or so standard treatments, most of which were written from the Japanese perspective, would have us believe. While more recent scholarship, most notably the fine work of Kitajima Manji, has tended to adopt a more balanced appraisal of the conflict, for centuries the Japanese perpetuated a myth of victory in Korea, a myth so powerful that it fired the dreams of conquerors in the late nineteenth century until Hideyoshi’s dreams were finally realized with the annexation of Korea in 1910. This myth stemmed in part from the various chronicles compiled on behalf of Hideyoshi’s retainers serving in Korea, all of whom were eager to attain recognition for their efforts.14.......Later historians, who wrote comprehensive accounts of the conflict for Japanese audiences by utilizing these earlier records as their sources, in turn transmitted such tales...... What is perhaps more surprising is that modern Chinese histories of the conflict often have the same interpretation.... Additionally, far from conveying images of fearful Chinese and Koreans loath to meet the fabled Japanese war machine head on, I found that the reverse was often the case. In fact, it was the Japanese who often avoided large set piece battles with the Chinese, not because they feared their numbers, but because they had a healthy respect for Ming military technology......despite all the the end it was technological and logistical considerations that probably shaped the direction of the war more than anything else, and everyone knew it..but it was the single greatest variable... - [Kenneth M. Swope, "Crouching Tigers, Secret Weapons: Military Technology Employed During the Sino-Japanese-Korean War, 1592–1598", The Journal of Military History 69 (January 2005): 11–42 © Society for Military History pg. 16-18]

So, I'd like to make changes to your edit - I think that Hideyoshi's death was an insignificant part of the war - especially to be added into the intro, & that the only possible reason to add it would be to show this connection between Japanese withdrawal and Hideyoshi's death, which I think is a flawed view that, at best, would be discussed as a POV issue at one of the later paragraphs. What do you think? (Chunbum Park 16:15, 13 November 2007 (CST))

yes, please go ahead and edit (and add a note on the TALK page explaining why you did this or that.). We are friendly here in CZ! But surely Hideyoshi's death did end the war and that is important. Encyclopedias do not usually speculate on what "might have happened" -- we have enough to say what actually did happen. We also avoid the "POV" term because it causes so much trouble on Wikipedia. I suggest you add a section on Japanese memories of the war, which were important. (In receent years historians have spent a lot of attention on memory of war generally--I just worked on the WWI article and was struck by so much recent scholarship on memory.) Richard Jensen 16:22, 13 November 2007 (CST)
Then what would you say to the quote above from Kenneth M. Swope? I think that this is more of a neutrality issue that should be discussed in the later sections - it's too big to be fitted into the intro & at the same time, I think, the attempt to explain neutrality issues like that on a war topic seems to sound "trivial" (not that the issue isn't important but that the attempt to bring it up as the first thing of the article seems as if the article makes the issue bigger than it should be). So, I guess you're knowledgeable about this war. P.S. Then why did you say that this war was not important enough to be treated at Citizendium? (Chunbum Park 16:39, 13 November 2007 (CST))
The war is important enough for a short treatment of a couple thousand words. But we have to think of the encyclopeia as a whole, and having most of the Korea material devoted to warfare seems to me to distort the role of Korea. Swope convinced me that the war was more important for the memory of it for hundreds of years later rather than the actual fighting for a matter of a few years.Richard Jensen
Oh, I think I misunderstood you. You said that I can make the changes that I've suggested here, but that Hideyoshi's death is important to mention. I was just confused why you'd say that when I had already said that I'd like to make mention of it in the later sections.
It may be my English - I don't understand the last part of your post. Thank you. (Chunbum Park 16:49, 13 November 2007 (CST))
go ahead and make edits. The opening has to explain why the war ended. Richard Jensen 17:03, 13 November 2007 (CST)
So are you saying that we should include Hideyoshi's death? According to Kenneth M. Swope, the superior artillery firepower (plus the adoption of the muskets by middle of 1st invasion) & better shipbuilding (disregarding the strategies) were the main reasons for allies' success. But then to say "allies won because they had better tech" is too obviously repetitive. Like, saying "Japanese withdrew" already implies that they were outdone in some way or another. (Chunbum Park 11:57, 14 November 2007 (CST))
technology seldom is the reason. Lack of a leader (Hideyoshi's death) is a better reason. Richard Jensen 16:50, 14 November 2007 (CST)
Well, the Indians lost to the British b/c of worse tech, & the German aircrafts were shot down b/c of British radars, & the American hegemony in the status quo is preserved by its nuclear-powered super carriers & nuclear-armed submarines & ICBMs... Later. Thanks. (Chunbum Park 09:46, 15 November 2007 (CST))
I think that you just read about this war out of leisure. From what I see, your Yale education was primarily on Western history, right? I'm just writing what I picked up - I'm not sure why you would continue to push for the importance of Hideyoshi's death when you seem to know about the war on the surface level - just a small part of your knowledge on history that you've probably accumulated over many years of reading & studying & it's not your area of expertise... & you haven't provided warrants for your assertions... Or are you just making comments like recommendation/suggestion... I'm really confused. P.s. I'm confused about writing about the "memories" of the war instead of the war itself & how the subject would portray Korea in violent light (like, the articles stand alone in content - just because one article talks about something violent doesn't mean that the subjects concerned are portrayed as violent exclusively) ... Like the Civil War, Korean War, WWII, etc. they're all about the war itself, not about the memories of the war... But I'll make sure to include something like that in the conclusion/aftermath section - which reminds me, do you have a good idea for the title of the conclusion section? The one at Wikipedia sounds really awkward. (Chunbum Park 11:11, 15 November 2007 (CST))
I am not a specialist on Japan or Korea. I am a specialist in writing about wars. The article should say Why this war was important. Swope says it's important because of the Japanese memory of it. Richard Jensen 16:50, 15 November 2007 (CST)
Well, I guess wars are significant in & of themselves b/c people die & there are a lot of losses & the battles are important to these people.
But here are the real reasons why this war is important enough to be included.
  • Hideyoshi aimed to conquer all of Asia - like Napoleon & Alexander the Great
  • The world's largest war at the time, no other European war could compete in the scale of destruction & the huge size of the armies.
  • The world's first modern world war, with the heavy use of artillery & firearms & the earthenwork (walls fortified with dirt) warfare, similar to trench warfare
  • An example of the military revolution, once thought to have happened only in the West.
  • And most importantly, simply, the Chinese, Koreans, and the Japanese all know about this war, talk about it, & commemorate & celebrate it. It's a big deal, it's significant in terms of the histories of the countries concerned
  • As for the assertion above, for example, Ming Dynasty of China collapsed due to this war (financial costs, Jurchens in the north)

(Chunbum Park 18:10, 15 November 2007 (CST))

Excellent. Those are important reasons and they should be in the beginning of the article. Richard Jensen 18:20, 15 November 2007 (CST)
Thank you. I thought I might add them in the conclusion, but I guess the intro is a better place. (Chunbum Park 11:21, 16 November 2007 (CST))

Thanks for adding the bibliography. (Chunbum Park 09:58, 24 November 2007 (CST))

my pleasure! (my wife was an editor of the journal of military history, so we get it regularly). Richard Jensen 10:02, 24 November 2007 (CST)
What should I do with Kenneth M. Swope's assertion that Hideyoshi recalled the forces by himself? (Chunbum Park 10:22, 24 November 2007 (CST))
Also, I think that the introduction's already long enough; there's nothing that I can remove because all of the details are important in making a summary of the what, why, when, how, where's. Should I include the technological & world-wide significance in the conclusion? (Chunbum Park 10:30, 24 November 2007 (CST))
Here's the part about Hideyoshi's withdrawal:

Morale amongst the Japanese steadily declined, and many of their commanders began pressing for a withdrawal to the home islands. Even Hideyoshi himself came to have doubts, allegedly saying, “How could I have sent 100,000 soldiers overseas to become ghosts?”94 When he questioned his generals about the situation in Korea, they said, “Korea is a big country. If we move east, then we have to defend the west; if we attack to our left, then we are assailed on the right. Even if we had another ten years, the matter still might not be resolved.”95 Thereupon Hideyoshi complained of his advanced age and the fact that there appeared to be no way out of quagmire and asked them, “If we were to stop the troops and sue for peace, then what?” At this all the generals answered, “That would be best.”96 Sources such as these indicate that Hideyoshi himself decided to withdraw from Korea before his death from illness on 18 September 1598. This is in marked contrast to the account transmitted in most secondary sources, which maintains that the decision to withdraw from Korea was made by Hideyoshi’s inner circle of councilors and commissioners after his death. The most senior of these men also served as regents for Hideyoshi’s infant son. It is generally held that these men sought to get out of the Korean quagmire so they could devote their full attention to contesting for power in Japan. While all of the information concerning their motives may well be true, it appears from these accounts that the disenchanted conqueror had already made his decision to throw down the sword. In fact, the withdrawal from Korea was well underway by the time of Hideyoshi’s death, and less than half of his top commanders remained in Korea as of August 1598.

(Chunbum Park 10:30, 24 November 2007 (CST))
interesting material! I think it can be summarized maybe like this: "Their failure to reach China (the main goal) or even conquer Korea, disillusioned the top Japanese leaders. They perhaps never shared Hideyoshi's long terms goals of conquering China in the first place; they convinced him to cut the losses. After his death there was general agreement to leave immediately." (that is just my suggestion--you know the material better than anyone here) Richard Jensen 13:24, 24 November 2007 (CST)
I did make changes before you responded - were they not satisfactory? (Chunbum Park 18:05, 24 November 2007 (CST))


Your changes are perfect, this is how CZ should work! I had this piece (and also about Kepler, Newton, and Ptolemy) in Dutch for a freshmen's course treating ellipses, Kepler's laws and the like. I translated it into English and made some slips: "en" instead of "and", "Februari" instead of "February" and so on. I tell you this in case you were wondering about these mistakes. Maybe, if you have time you could look at Isaac Newton and Johannes Kepler, too? Thanks again. --Paul Wormer 11:40, 27 November 2007 (CST)

my pleasure. I had a course in the history of astronomy many years ago (when Pluto was a planet)--and my interest revived when my daughter took a degreein astronomy (she just graduated this year). Richard Jensen 11:45, 27 November 2007 (CST)


I looked in Westfall again, no reference to Newton's astrology. Maybe it is best that you adapt the sentence? I read Goldstein and Hon. They write:

However, the introduction of the term orbita, which Kepler uses casually as if it is already known, constitutes, as we argue, a revolutionary concept.

which does not convince me that Kepler was the first to use "orbit". --Paul Wormer 07:23, 28 November 2007 (CST)

PS I see that you rm Newton, OK. --Paul Wormer 07:25, 28 November 2007 (CST)

on orbit, the old meaning had to do with the eyeball. 1st use in astronomy in English was 1671 OED: "1671 Philos. Trans. 1670 (Royal Soc.) 5 2071 The Obliquity of the Zodiack and the Moon's Orbite" -- did someone before Kepler use orbit??? no name has surfaced. Richard Jensen 07:32, 28 November 2007 (CST)

The "Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles", 3rd edition, 1973 (Clarendon Press, 2 volumes) gives first appearances of words in English, but no finding places. It gives 1548 for orbit. It is not excluded by the work of Goldstein and Hon that the word already existed before Kepler in some non-technical sense, but that Kepler was the first to use it technically. We are getting here into original research, which is strictly forbidden :-) --Paul Wormer 07:45, 28 November 2007 (CST)

No we are not doing original research, which would involve Latin texts. (my Latin was never that good!) I just reread the Goldstein and Hon article. Their central theme is that Kepler invented the orbit and that is central to his revolution. They are convincing to me, and I see no scholars with an alternative position. The OED full edition gives numerous references for "orbit" = eye socket in 1500s, and I just rechecked, the first astronomy usage is 1671 in English. Richard Jensen 07:49, 28 November 2007 (CST)

Yes, I just checked and see that, indeed, this online edition of the OED differs from the 1973 paper edition, so I surrender to Goldstein's and Hon's view. (Which means that I have to change electron orbital ).

well we now agree on Kepler and Newton--this is the sort of discussion that makes CZ so attractive to a retired historian like myself. Richard Jensen 08:03, 28 November 2007 (CST)


Please add subpages to the articles about Atlantic History and Military History. Micha van den Berg 13:04, 28 November 2007 (CST)

yes, that's on the to-do list. Richard Jensen 13:20, 28 November 2007 (CST)


Hi Richard, we had a request on the forums. Any chance you can help her out? [9] --D. Matt Innis 15:20, 28 November 2007 (CST)

she should start with Wikipedia. We won't get to that for a while. Richard Jensen 15:27, 28 November 2007 (CST)

They're in

User:George Clark and User:Timothy D. Johnson. Thanks for your help. I brought them in the old fashioned way, so do let me know if you need any help getting them set up. --D. Matt Innis 19:58, 29 November 2007 (CST)

Of course I am not able to grant editorship, so I have them as authors. --D. Matt Innis 19:59, 29 November 2007 (CST)

You deserve to be credited...

Well, I see you were working away on party day, which makes you one of the shy boys. I’ll have to come and drag you in next month! Aleta Curry 23:42, 9 December 2007 (CST)

OK, I'm prewarned--keep up the good work! Richard Jensen 00:45, 10 December 2007 (CST)

History > Catalogs

I don't wholesale erasures, i just moved parts of the catalog onto new catalogs - i.e., i just splited the catalog. L'Astorina 18:38, 15 December 2007 (CST)

I'm sorry for getting upset. Please discuss major changes BEFORE they are made. thanks Richard Jensen 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)
Is there a reason for deleting those history catalog pages? --Robert W King 06:16, 17 December 2007 (CST)
yes they are duplicates of the main catalog page. No information was erased.Richard Jensen 06:24, 17 December 2007 (CST)

Approving Articles

Hi Richard (I feel uneasy calling someone online by the term 'doctor', hope you don't take offense!) I was just wondering if anything could be done in terms of increasing the number of approved History articles? There are a lot of very good articles (Most done by yourself, such as the Civil War, Reconstruction, Slavery in America etc. etc.) that could be approved. The problem is that I don't know of any active history editors other than yourself (And Approving your own articles might lead to conflicts of interest and other ethical conundrums). What do you think? Are there any other active history editors? Denis Cavanagh 08:54, 16 December 2007 (CST)

alas, it's a problem. I have tried to sign up some new editors but they are as inactive as the old ones. In any case it's the text that matters not the seal of approval, so let's keep chugging along. A very good article on France will help! (and please don't call me doctor....nobody does) Richard Jensen 16:06, 16 December 2007 (CST)
Denis, this is a problem that a focus group within the Executive Committee will be taking up. It is ultimately a governance & process problem, and that is exactly the sort of problem I'll be aiming to fix once the license issue is done with. --Larry Sanger 15:50, 17 December 2007 (CST)

delete me

Don't forget to put {{speedydelete}} on the pages you want me to delete. That puts them on a category page that I just go down the list and they won't get left behind in some dark abyss :). --D. Matt Innis 06:44, 17 December 2007 (CST)

thanks--I couldn't remember the command last nite! Richard Jensen 13:54, 17 December 2007 (CST)

Andrew Carnegie

Great work! I asked Roger Lohmann to see about moving it toward approval. --Joe Quick 00:40, 20 December 2007 (CST) Thanks!! Richard Jensen 00:55, 20 December 2007 (CST)

Approved! Congratulations... lets keep this rolling! --D. Matt Innis 21:24, 7 January 2008 (CST)

HURRAY!! Richard Jensen 21:26, 7 January 2008 (CST)

Japanese invasions of Korea

Dr. Jensen, I replied to you on talk page. I guess this is more of a direct question to you. Is it okay for me to say "In the larger comparison, the weapons used during the invasion were as advanced as or better than the European counterparts." (Chunbum Park 15:59, 22 December 2007 (CST))

Also, some of the bibliographies that you added, - I didn't use them. Are those texts that you've read & you find what I've written to be correct/reliable? (Chunbum Park 16:04, 22 December 2007 (CST))

1 I recommend avoiding international comparisons. They are hard to handle and require a strong knowledge of Euopean history. 2) so far your article looks good! Richard Jensen 17:19, 22 December 2007 (CST)
"For example, the Korean coasts were flat and experienced fast tides that vacillated over a huge littoral span." Is this an okay way to describe the situation? That since the coastal areas were flat, the tides moved up & down quickly & over a very long distance? I gave link to "littoral span" (inexistent). Also, thanks for your constant watch on that article. (Chunbum Park 10:20, 24 December 2007 (CST))
That makes sense (I know that in 1950 US Navy was very concerned with huge tides at Inchon). Keep at it and Medrry Christmas. Richard Jensen 10:55, 24 December 2007 (CST)
Medrry Christmas! I uploaded this image. Did I get the copyright all right? I didn't copyright it so I put "N/A". (Chunbum Park 13:11, 24 December 2007 (CST))
Never mind. Somebody else helped edit it. Thank you. (Chunbum Park 13:27, 24 December 2007 (CST))
nice artwork! it makes the article much more attractive and explains the naval issue. Richard Jensen 19:23, 24 December 2007 (CST)

Hello Dr. Jensen, I today received The Imjin War by Samuel Hawley (2005) - I ordered it 1 week ago. Again in the introduction I find his comparison of this war with European counterparts. So it's not just Kenneth M. Swope. Could I add a bit of that international comparison? I'm studying Modern European History AP right now, so I think I can handle it. (Chunbum Park 14:30, 27 December 2007 (CST))

go ahead....but these comparisons are very difficult and controversial. Richard Jensen 15:55, 27 December 2007 (CST)

History of the comma


Two weeks ago, you have moved the article History of France to France, history. I disagree with this move to an odd name, so I would like to know your arguments for this action.

I have also noticed that user:Denis Cavanagh has recently created Poland, History (inconsistent with France, history), moving from Poland a large amount of text which he didn't write any line. In my opinion, this is an unfair practice. What do you think about it?

--Patrice Gross 06:44, 28 December 2007 (CST)

the policy in History articles is to put the country name first. In the last decaded historians and publishers have strongly avoided the title "History of XYZ" --it's old fashioned and grates against postmodern sensibilities. The form "France, history" avoids this mistake and makes it easy to keep track of articles related to a country. Readers will know to look for "Germany, history", "Poland, history" etc. (History should be lower case I think.) The logic is that people really are interested in France, Germany etc, and not in history generally. In terms of the Poland, history issue. We usually start articles on a place with the history embedded, then when it gets long enough spin it off. (look at Chicago for example.)
The logic is that people really are interested in France, Germany etc, and not in history generally.: that's I had understood, but I don't follow this logic (and probably, I have not a postmodern sensibility). I found also that ‘History of France’ was a very common expression in book titles (Amazon: search for ‘France history’).
It's normal to split long articles. However, the initial authors would not be forgotten. --Patrice Gross 08:00, 28 December 2007 (CST)
I moved the Poland, history article in order to streamline it with other articles of the same nature. The section on Polish history within the Poland article was extremely long, and big enough to warrant its own history article. I also don't believe it is necessary to have written a line in an article to streamline it in accordance with the History Workgroup's policies. No author 'owns' an article on Citizendium, this is a collaborative work. If you feel anything was wrong or out of order in what I have done, please revert it and allow a neutral party to make a decision either way. The capitalisation on Poland, History was also merely an oversight. Merry Christmas! Denis Cavanagh 09:40, 28 December 2007 (CST)
CC Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported (extract):
Attribution. You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
Nobody owns a CC work, but you must grant attributions to the contributor(s) (in my opinion). Happy new year! --Patrice Gross 11:19, 28 December 2007 (CST)
You seem to be confused about what's going on at CZ (and WP for that matter). No one is writing individual essays that in some way *belongs* to them, with their name attached to it. Your name will show up in the History tab, chronologically, with all other members who edit or modify the original material.Hayford Peirce 11:38, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Sorry, but I think your statement is completely erroneous. Each contribution at CZ can be an original work, and therefore definitively belongs to its author. However, the author has allowed at the same time the use of the work under a CC-by-sa 3.0 license, and that's why I said: nobody owns a CC work. But the author keeps the right to adapt his original work without be bound by the CC-by-sa 3.0 license: you seem to not recognize this essential right. --Patrice Gross 06:26, 29 December 2007 (CST)

One of the Denis Diderot's entries in the Encyclopedie didn't belong to him, though most of his articles were signed. They belonged to the encyclopedia. I'm not sure what you expected me to do differently Patrice. Denis Cavanagh 16:13, 29 December 2007 (CST)

The French law has changed since XVIIIth century. However, any author have imprescriptible moral rights. But, when an organization or a person pays you to do a work, you can lose the author status: that's the case for ghostwriters, I think.
I have understood that any Citizendium contributor has the author status (like in Wikipedia). So suitable attribution for edits is important.
I have noticed that Richard Jensen added most of the text about history in article Poland, so it clearly bothers me to see somebody else creating a new article with this unchanged text.
However, I have not checked if Richard Jensen's text was an original one, I have not the solution for splitted articles, and therefore I don't reproach Denis for anything. And yet, there is an issue, a general one for Citizendium. --Patrice Gross 06:22, 1 January 2008 (CST)
I think I see your objection now then. However, despite Richard effectively writing the Polish article he is not considered the owner. The article belongs to Citizendium. Richards work is documented in edit histories anyway. Denis Cavanagh 13:22, 1 January 2008 (CST)
Denis is right. Basically, I write for the world and the more readers the better. If I thought any damage was being done I would speak out loudly. Let me add that as a retired history professor I most of all enjoy learning about history, and the best way to do that it to write history--especially topics (like Poland and China) that are not my specialties. Richard Jensen 13:59, 1 January 2008 (CST)

years as separate articles

Hi. Could you give a link to the forum discussion you started on individual years as separate articles? I couldn't find it. I'd conditionally support such idea (more details on the forum, of course). Thanks in advance! Aleksander Stos 07:09, 29 December 2007 (CST)

"forum" was the wrong word. It's at CZ:History Workgroup Richard Jensen 07:38, 29 December 2007 (CST)
If you want these two deleted, just state so. Stephen Ewen 20:27, 29 December 2007 (CST)
I would like to see them deleted as currently we don't have any sufficient articles to justify keeping and maintaining them (other than for "trivia" purposes), and it also can further perpetrate the "WP-knockoff" stereotype. I think Larry mentioned this to someone else earlier today or yesterday, but I can't remember whom. It might have been the history workgroup talk page. See --Robert W King 20:32, 29 December 2007 (CST)

Lists - giving credit for?

Quick question, Richard. If I'm typing a bibliography, and I haven't read most of the books in it, but sourced them from a book or a website, and related question if I'm creating a list of an artist's works in this case Edwin Landseer and I know a lot of them but not all, so that I find some of the lesser-known ones in other places, am I supposed to cite where I got the name of each work (the ones I don't know off the top of my head)? Aleta Curry 15:42, 29 December 2007 (CST)

no we don't give credit for where we found routine information like titles/dates of books or paintings (that is no help to users). Richard Jensen 16:21, 29 December 2007 (CST)
Wouldn't have thought so, but better safe and all that....thanks! Aleta Curry 17:24, 29 December 2007 (CST)

archive page 2

RJ, you may consider creating a secondary archive page, this one is currently getting long in the tooth. --Robert W King 20:35, 29 December 2007 (CST)

good idea. how is that done? Richard Jensen 20:44, 29 December 2007 (CST)
Richard, I made the Archive 2 page for you [10]. Just cut and paste the sections that you want to move to that page. Let me know if you need help. --D. Matt Innis 21:28, 7 January 2008 (CST)
Thanks! I'm a klutz at this and would appreciate your help--put everything on the archive page and start fresh here, if possible. Richard Jensen 21:33, 7 January 2008 (CST)