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User talk:J. Noel Chiappa/Archive 1

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Welcome, new editor! We're very glad you've joined us. Please read The Editor Role. You can look at Getting Started for other helpful introductory pages. It is essential for you as an editor to join the Citizendium-Editors (broadcast) mailing list in order to stay abreast of editor-related issues, as well as the mailing list(s) that concern your particular interests. It is also important, for project-wide matters, to join the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forums is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any constable for help, too. Me, for instance! Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and thank you! We appreciate your willingness to share your expertise, and we hope to see your edits on Recent changes soon. Supten Sarbadhikari 02:33, 19 February 2008 (CST)

Priority claim?

Welcome (back), Noel. "I actually wrote the very first Citizendium article, in October, 2006: Hokusai!" I think the first CZ articles appeared on the Textop wiki; did your article appear there? I'm also skeptical of any such claim if you can't prove it.  :-) --Larry Sanger 15:23, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Hey, I looked at the article. I think I remember this. You could well be right! --Larry Sanger 15:28, 25 February 2008 (CST)


Hi Noel, i noticed in the forum your were wondering how the hell the metadata page work and what can/is it supposed to do. I see you have already taken a bite at improving the instructions and information, which is great. FYI, the development of the subpages template was very organic and ad hoc. The consequence is that the documentation and the template itself are a mess and need to be streamlined. You, as someone who had to try and figure it out from scratch, can appreciate this is a bad thing. I'd say feel free to jump right in and edit an inconsistencies you notice. It is a long overdue thing on my to do list. Thanks for any help or suggestions in advance. Chris Day (talk) 14:56, 3 March 2008 (CST)

why not a catagory

I didn't start the article, only added 1 line. You should put that comment on the talk page of the article. David E. Volk 22:51, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Why template space?

You asked why is the metadata in template space. Excellent question and its not the way we wanted it. For the complete historical context of the discussion see the following thread in the forum.,1149.0.html The short answer is that the metadata can only be read correctly from the template space.

A longer explanation can be found on a test article subpage. There is a companion sub-subpage that is slightly different and it is this type of page for which the "reading the metadata in article space" problem exists. Since these pages are useful for catalogs, timelines and signed articles I decided to keep the metadata in the template rather than abandon the sub-subpage concept.

If you know a way to solve this problem I'd be interested to hear it. I think the project is still young enough that a major change (moving metadata to the article space) might be possible. Chris Day (talk) 01:32, 4 March 2008 (CST)

Hi Noel!

I see you've been working away.

Please drop by CZ:monthly write-a-thon and add yourself to the list of participants.

Otherwise, I shall be forced to add you to my choice of categories--bwah, ha, ha!

Aleta Curry 18:18, 5 March 2008 (CST)

An important message in Calcidius discussion page...

Please, I made an important message in the discussion page from article of Calcidius, I believe that it would be interesting if you read, because it is aimed at all those who are assisting in the editing of the article. Kind regards, --Georgeos Díaz-Montexano 22:17, 7 March 2008 (CST)

just hi

thanks for your helpful suggestions. (Did you work at BBN? I did, also from the MIT-enclave tho not a grad of any school with such a pedigree!)

I have a very early draft of the Halting Problem, what is your sense of it thus far? I'm trying to make a more accessible exposition for topics typicslly explained in dry and somewhat cryptic ways, without dumbing down the topic.

So I spose i am asking your opinion as to this style and approach in general ...

(I am planning to write a small cluster of related articles : Lambda Calculus, Godel's Incompleteness, Church-Turing thesis, and 'Quining' (self-replicating computer code). The latter provides a rather simple and clear (and referencable) proof-sketch of GIT and CTT. </more-than-you-needed-to-know> Christopher J. Reiss 14:37, 8 March 2008 (CST)

Mr. Sanger has forbidden me the moral right to be recognized as the intellectual author

Mr. Sanger has forbidden me the moral right to be recognized as the intellectual author, and I have been denied the simple right to a link to my original article (see discussion page). I'm sorry, but abandoned the project. I am very disappointed. I wish the best for everyone, and having great success. My most sincere greetings and respect for all. Kind Regards, --Georgeos Díaz-Montexano 16:45, 9 March 2008 (CDT)

Eduzendium articles template

I had written a partial answer but you say you figured it out. Just to clarify to check we're on the same page. If I understand you correctly the auto template is the one mentioned in the text. But for just looking at an example of the template there is no need to use the auto version of the template. That way the "eduzendium info pages" do not end up in Category:Eduzendium articles. Does that sound right? Chris Day (talk) 10:25, 10 March 2008 (CDT)


I've got some houseguests that I've gotta get dinner for right now but I'll certainly take a look at them tomorrow morning. This laundry-list of facts is something that I myself tried to avoid at WP but saw an enormous amount of that sort of stuff there. Some people who've moved over from there take a while to get it out of their system. And either they do -- or they leave.... Cheers! Hayford Peirce 21:03, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

I've got a building project that will occupy me until at least mid-afternoon -- as soon as that's finished (for the day only, sigh), I'll take a look at you stuff. Best, Hayford Peirce 12:42, 11 March 2008 (CDT)
Hi Noel, I started to reply yesterday and just as I began to type my ISP went down for 18 hours or so. Grrrrrrrr! Both your articles look fine to me. The Hokusai gives a good overview to start with, tells the reader who he is and why he's important, then expands on that information in an interesting way. I don't see how it could be done any better. Ditto with the other one, which is more linear, of course, given the very different subject matter, but with a subject like this, I don't see how else it could be done. It's a straightforward chronology, but that doesn't necessarily make it a laundry list -- some things just *are* chronologies.... So, keep up the good work! At least I can understand what you're doing here -- the tech/geek/guru stuff that you *also* find time to do is mostly beyond me -- although the results seem to be impressive! Hayford Peirce 10:36, 14 March 2008 (CDT)
Yes, I agree about the "artsy" content of the Hokusai article. The more the better. I gather, then, that you're like me: you can write the basic Waldo Peirce or George Jones article but then can't really do very much about the art or music side without just quoting from others or making relatively sweeping generalizations such as "He was a representationalist" or "he is a country singer who communicates intense emotions". Well, my feeling is, this is supposed to be a collaborative project -- so far, in *most* articles there hasn't been much collaboration, just not enough people here yet. When they *do* get here, let someone else put in the fancy stuff.... Hayford Peirce 14:21, 14 March 2008 (CDT)


User:Jnc/ToDo - not a good place for that.... Stephen Ewen 21:07, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

That was fun

The last time I tried that I ended up with a mess ;-) Thanks for the push. --D. Matt Innis 22:00, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for your post on my Talk page about my article output

J. Noel, I have responded at quite some length to your post on my Talk page. Please read my response and let me know if you can help. Regards, Milton Beychok 22:34, 12 March 2008 (CDT)


Hi Noel, I'm not sure how good you are with the wikicode, you see pretty good from what I have seen. For the subpages I only want templates used on any given page to expand thus reducing the apparent size of the subpages template in an article. Could you check out my random thoughts on this issue. If you have any knowledge in this area could you point me in the right direction? In anticipation, Chris Day (talk) 09:25, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Noel, i want to pick you brain some more, any idea how this expression would work using the conditional inclusion trick?
{{ #ifexpr:.. | {{a|parameters}} | {{b|parameters}} {{c |parameters}} }}
Possibly as: {{ {{ #ifexpr:.. |a|b|c}}|parameters}}  ? But that does not seem right, is there another character I should use between the b and c template names? Chris Day (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for the input. I think you missed that there are only two possible outcomes not three. One is template A the other is template B+C. So I'm looking for some character to separate the b and c that does not make it look like a third choice. Something along the lines of {{ {{ #ifexpr:.. |a|b+c}}|parameters}} . So does something equivalent to the plus exist in wikimarkup?

WP template bug

[{{localurl:{{{1}}}}} {{{2}}}] this works for names with a backslash. Not sure if itcan be incorporated into the {{WP}} though. Chris Day (talk) 01:16, 14 March 2008 (CDT)


This is what i have been trying to do. You can see the results here. Talk:Test_article/Timelines the big picture is to reduce the effective size of pages for faster download times and usability. Chris Day (talk) 11:29, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Just did a bit more reading about the wikipedia processor and if that were running here there would be no need to use the conditional inclusion format. It only expands the templates that are used. Chris Day (talk) 14:16, 14 March 2008 (CDT)


Hey Noel, have you tried getting the popups feature to work here? By the way, do you go by Noel? --D. Matt Innis 12:14, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Why were our parents thinking? ;-) --D. Matt Innis 01:20, 15 March 2008 (CDT)
I stand guilty as charged. We use middle names but only because the first name was so common. We reverted at age3 when there were three others in preschool with the same name. Besides, in retrospect we prefer the middle name. Have you guys ever decided to not tow the line and just put your middle name in the first name box, or would you get jail time for that :) At the end of the day we're all numbers as far as the records go. Chris Day (talk) 01:34, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

I have a number of credit cards which give my name as "J N Chiappa", but with bureacrats like the Immigration and Naturalization Service (or whatever their name is now) you have to grin and bear it... those of you who live in the US and are US citizens have no idea of how much power they have over those who aren't, and how easy it is for them to make your life miserable with it! J. Noel Chiappa 09:12, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

subpages coded in metadata

I think we had a conversation on this topic although I forget where? Anyway, I was just doing some house keeping on the subpages template and noticed that there is a little known feature that remains in there, although not used or sanctioned. I had completely forgotten it was in there. Three fields, tab1, tab2 and tab3 can be used to create an unique subpage tab in any article. This idea did not really progress and I don't recall if any discussions happened or whether the idea was cut off fast. Chris Day (talk) 02:28, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

talk page

That would be great. Minhaj Ahmed Khan Lodi 15:00, 15 March 2008 (CDT)

History editor

Noel, you're needed as a history editor and military history editor. Please apply. Richard Jensen 02:13, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Varieties of English

Yesterday I suggested, for the sake of neutrality, English: transatlantic differences, and it was well received; but I can't find the discussion. I think User: John Stephenson & User:Louise Valmoria were involved. Anyway, what do you think? Ro Thorpe 11:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for locating the discussion - the obvious place! Yes, transatlantic (as my Oxford has it - but if it can be wrong about curaçao it can be wrong) is too vague. So I'll go with your version. Ro Thorpe 12:34, 18 March 2008 (CDT)


Hi Noel, Welcome to CZ, and thanks especially for authoring in Computers. Enjoy!Pat Palmer 00:18, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Table deletion

No big deal, it's in the history if I ever want to dig it up. --Robert W King 10:57, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

erlang on the move

I can move them around. I have been meaning to do that disambiguation. what erlang_unit and erlang_language sounds good. -Eric Evers

Thanks for the help, from the Metadata challenged. -Eric Evers


I must say Noel its a breath of fresh air having you around (I've noticed you've only being here a month!) Was wondering how the application for becoming a history editor is going? If you get accepted, I'd love to help you out with nominating articles for approval. Richard has written many articles on the early US history and I think many of them could be approved. Since he has been the only active editor in that workgroup he hasn't been able to nominate them himself. Regards, Denis Cavanagh 18:00, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Talk signature

I had to buckle and edit my preferences. It was obvious that my old skin was not going to spontaneously revert to the new default. So now, I too have no talk page link in my sig :( Chris Day 01:02, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Hehe, I feel your pain ;-( --D. Matt Innis 09:12, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Alphabet soup

Hi Noel, I just wanted to drop you a quick reminder. This is mostly to allow those less familiar with wiki language an opportunity to understand everything that is being said. Being a fellow wikipedian, I understand the urge to use acronyms, but do resist that urge! ;-) --D. Matt Innis 10:55, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

naming policy

Noel - I've created formal proposals on subpages. Have a look at CZ:Proposals/Naming Conventions for Biographies/Proposal2. Anthony Argyriou 16:20, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

Noel - will you be suggesting edits to Proposal2? I'd like to keep this ball rolling. Thanks, Anthony Argyriou 13:28, 2 April 2008 (CDT)


Noel, Redirect from Omega to Omega (Greek Letter Ω ω) is complete. --Thomas Simmons 17:21, 30 March 2008 (CDT)

Proactive rename

Got your message. Yeah, normally I would have proposed a rename for discussion, but the one I did seemed so clearly necessary that I didn't think it even needed to be discussed. --Marnen E. Laibow-Koser 11:08, 1 April 2008 (CDT)


Hi Noel, I have a favor to ask--feel free to say "no"--could you please adapt Template:Authors so that one name displays if only one name is listed? I figure I could do this myself, but it would probably take you one minute, and it might take me much longer... This is in keeping with the "second proposal" on the relevant proposal page. --Larry Sanger 18:51, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

re: student confusion

Thanks for your note and for taking the proactive approach! I have told my students orally that they should start articles by clicking on the red links... but apparently it didn't take. Hopefully the written notice will have a better impact. :) I appreciate your help - please let me know if you notice anything else amiss! --Daniel Folkinshteyn 22:09, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

re: duplicate articles

Thanks for pointing those out. The opportunity cost one really has no reason to be title-cased, so "Opportunity cost" would be best, as per the titling guidelines here. The GAAP one is usually capitalized, and thus would be better left in title case.

I will talk to the students for these two articles and tell them to integrate the content of the two versions into the appropriately titled articles, and then when that's done will figure out how to stick a redirect into the other ones.

Thanks again for your help, please let me know if you see anything else amiss! --Daniel Folkinshteyn 23:20, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Thank you for your offer - I'll take you up on that! :) will let you know when they're done. --Daniel Folkinshteyn 23:36, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

re: EZarticle-closed

Thanks for the hint. Daniel Mietchen 05:26, 3 April 2008 (CDT)

You have email

..from D. Matt Innis 22:07, 3 April 2008 (CDT)

Thank you

Stephen Saletta 10:05, 6 April 2008 (CDT)

New user Lehmann

Regarding this user, it would seem that the system made a talk page for him but not the main page for him first. You might ask a systems person why the system seems to have failed for this case David E. Volk 11:33, 7 April 2008 (CDT)

Help with MediaWiki

Hi Noel (I hope I can call so, I am rather at a loss regarding your name and both your picture and your involvement with LISP place you in a more experienced generation than mine, if you don't mind my saying so). As you said, there are not many system admin kind of people around here at the moment. I didn't try to find out what you're talking about, but as you may have noticed, I do know a bit about the internals of MediaWiki — it was not a good experience, by the way. I feel I owe you something for your involvement into prime number and quantum mechanics, so if you need help, cry and I'll see what I can do. Cheers, Jitse Niesen 17:18, 7 April 2008 (CDT)

Borderline Personality Disorder


Not sure what prompted your comments to Innis. I started this article, and am virtually the only one who has worked on it. There are no edit wars, of any sort, going on as your post would imply. Further, the large delete was appropriate, as the content was unabashedly anecdotal and not citable. --Michael J. Formica 11:04, 8 April 2008 (CDT)


Joel, I hate when others do that (update every 3-10 items). I end up going to already done articles over and over again. I always try to check the "minor" change, so that users can select the "hide minor changes" option. David E. Volk 13:11, 12 April 2008 (CDT)



i think Linus Pauling might agree with you. Chris Day 09:57, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

No doubt he was very close to finding the answer. Photo51 did allow Crick and Watson to get more information with respect to the physical dimensions. However, the concept of pairing and stacking came from Chargaffs Rule (A:T and G:C ratios are always 1:1 in DNA) and that had nothing to do with the quality of the X-ray picture. Basically their solving the structure was an intellectual tour de force and something that neither could have done without the other. It was a perfect collaboration, and lets not forget there were really three minds as Franklin had input too. It was her that pointed out that their first attempt at solving the structure was wrong and why (phosphates had to be on the outside due to their negative charge). It was that input from her that got them thinking about the base interactions, their first model had them all on the outside with no pairing. Once they had base interactions on their mind the rest fell into place. Chris Day 15:24, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
The double helix was just classic Watson (honest Jim was its original title, I think), even Crick complained about it. He was a showman and that rubs many scientists the wrong way. As we now know, an ignoramus too, with respect to race and sex. He did many good things but destroyed much of his legacy with poorly thought out comments throughout his career. The book of his life should be titled "The double foot in mouth". Chris Day 16:14, 14 April 2008 (CDT)
"not just scientists! :-)" And there lies his problem. Chris Day 16:39, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

Template Recursion

OK, so what about ways to truncate strings? Has Wiki markup got anything like that?--David Yamakuchi 13:07, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

Well, I saw that where you linked me to the MediaWiki docs it says we can't do this, but this[1] is basically what I was talking about _trying_ to do. So, dey do dat? (Category:Editorial_Council)

Now, the template that is "called" to produce this, {{Editorial Council}} "calls" another one named {{Community}}, and that one kinda hurts my brain...or at least I'm having trouble seeing how we end up with what we do. Thing is, it's not really what we want for this template, I don't really does look to me as if the author of {{Editorial Council}} didn't intend this to be the result. So now it's maybe really two things I'm asking...

  1. how dey do dat?
  2. how do we not do the recursion here, and so get the intended results?

Ain't computers fun!? :^) --David Yamakuchi 22:27, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Metadata hack

Go ahead. I don't own these templates. Any improvements are very welcome. Chris Day 12:27, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

We should definitely start migrating documentation to {{Subpages/Doc}} and similar, I just didn't have time to start that. With regard to the metadata template it could definitely be metadata specific but I'm not sure how much you would save since we still want the tabs at the top of that page too. Or do we? Have a go at it if you wish. Looking at {{Subpages}} documentation with fresh eyes the metadata section should be with the core function at the top. let me know if anything else there makes no sense at all. I wrote that for myself rather than for other users so i expect it looks a little odd in places. Chris Day 12:47, 15 April 2008 (CDT)


Interesting you noted the Fleming problem. I missed it when I passed through. Since this was by the bot this means we have many autobiographies out there that need to be fixed. Chris Day 12:56, 15 April 2008 (CDT)

Status works fine with the space. I did that when I was trouble shooting the {{WGTable}} template. It turns out that a space after an article title, before a pipe or bracket, means the status value cannot be read from the metadata template. I just went through the biology bio's and my guess is about 50% were wrong. You're right we do not have a bio cat although I saw someone suggest a biography workgroup which would help for the future. Chris Day 14:04, 15 April 2008 (CDT)


I changed transparency to a disambig page, and I marked the metadata page as a speedy. I didn't see any need in just deleting it when it will probably do fine in its present incarnation. --Robert W King 10:24, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

Confused students

I've got more than one. In fact, one did an article on Wikipedia by mistake. I'm probably going to submit the page in question for speedy delete on Friday (unless there is a 180 degree turnaround). Hey I noticed you went to Andover. My niece is a junior there. I actually grew up in North Reading. --John J. Dennehy 14:07, 17 April 2008 (CDT)


If you make any changes to templates, can you go to CZ:Templates and make adjustments there? --Robert W King 15:20, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Also, why not just tag obsolete templates for speedydelete? --Robert W King 15:54, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Checklist_ templates

The names have historical significance rather than functional significance. I agree we should change them all to something more logical.

I've been meaning to delete all the obsolete subpage related templates for a while, since they just get in the way. i can barely remember what some of them were for so the sooner we axer the better in my opinion. Chris Day 17:22, 17 April 2008 (CDT)


That is just my test article. I need to delete all that now. Just noticed your use of "automagically". Very funny. I think i used magically in there originally as Joe Quick was so surprised that the checklist appeared as if by magic. Your usage is far better. Chris Day 21:19, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Actually it was Aleksander Stos who coined "magic". Chris Day 21:23, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Term checklist

Editorial Council loop...aka doctor, it hurts when I do this.

I see now that, as you point out, the loop does indeed come from the page being a category, _and_ being in that category...that answers Q#1. Also, I think you answered Q#2 with a form of "doctor, it hurts when I do this....." to which naturally "well, don't do that" is an acceptable answer, but I still suspect we might be able to come up with a work around, what with all you guys are teaching us about templates and such...

BTW, Russell's paradox hurts my head when I think about it too... :-) --David Yamakuchi 23:26, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Or we could just make a {{Editorial Council Category}} and be done with it...I think...except maybe for the double editing ( {{community}} and {{community without category}} ) if we want to change things later.
You know, it's curious but since you mentioned it, I just now was reading that Russell's solution to his paradox was to create a new level of "category" (tho he called them sets I think) that was "above" the one in question. I guess maybe he was right?
Either way, someone should check the thing (Category:Editorial Council) now that I've tweaked it to see that I didn't break something I just am unaware of...--David Yamakuchi 23:44, 18 April 2008 (CDT)


Noel, thanks for the link help on Computer Workgroup page. And more generally, for helping out in Computers around here.Pat Palmer 18:49, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

Noel, I think you should concentrate especially on those networking and computer history-related topics. You'll have a unique perspective that should be captured, and I think this is a good place for that. But before you dive in, can you tell me how you think disambiguations should work? For example, search on "apple". It goes to the page of the fruit, which has a disambig at the top, but shouldn't it go straight to the disambig, which then lets one find the fruit? I wanted another opinion before I go and change something like that.Pat Palmer 10:21, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

subpage bug

Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot to test the template on those pages so I forgot that header message would be there too. Now I see that subpage type I should automate the addition of the archive box too. For some reason those pages have never been on my radar screen. Chris Day 12:26, 21 April 2008 (CDT)

thank for the heads-up

Dam instead of dam. No problem. Thanks for the heads-up. George Swan 16:35, 21 April 2008 (CDT)


Joel, for the ABC= field, I have not been using capitalization unless the actual word is capitalized normally. I don't know if this is a rule or not, it just seemed logical to me. Do you if there is a rule one way or the other, or if the software automatically capitalizing the aphabetical listing anyway? Just curious. David E. Volk 08:33, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

header footer

Hi Noel, good job so far with all the documentation. Before you write more, for the article specific subpages i just realised that I can write the subpages template in a way that will generate the tab1, tab2 and tab3 subpage header and footer templates automatically. That will make the tab system much more user friendly (at least i think I can do it). I may even be able to do that with the all the subpage names which would make adding any new subpage trivial. I'll think about it a bit more tonight. Chris Day 17:10, 22 April 2008 (CDT)


More for your doppleganger file

Or, Why Redirects are a Good Idea, by J. Noel Chiappa

See Talk:Rap and Hip Hop#What's in a name? and hip-hop

Aleta Curry 19:33, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Hold up here, Noel-- I'm not sure that we want to have Rap redirect to Rap and Hip Hop. Let me and Raphael and whoever else figure out how we want to organize this group of articles, and then you can feel free to redirect away. (Not that I don't appreciate the efforts, but just that you jumped the gun on this one.) Thanks, Brian P. Long 20:28, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

automated header footer

I was thinking of automating the categories at least (for example in the form of [[Category {{{tab1))) subpages]] etc.). But I have not thought about the repercussions. For example, spelling errors in the metadata for the tab name might be harder to catch if the categories are automatically generated. Let me thing some more. Chris Day 23:10, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Just finished this. See what you think: {{Tab footer}} and {{Tab header}}. Example can be seen at Oxygen/Isotopes (tab1) and Oxygen/Element (tab2). Your thoughts on the generic language and the choice of categories would be useful. There is one big flaw here: If users mistype the tab name, i.e. Isotope instead of Isotopes, i cannot think of an easy way to monitor for such mistakes. On the other hand, i think this might be made up for by the usability issue, in that a unique tab name does not require an new footer and header each time. On my third hand, but maybe requiring a header and footer for each case might stop a massive proliferation of unwanted subpage names. One the fourth hand, isn't the freedom to create new subpages the whole idea. Basically, I keep going back and forth on this and have not really found a satisfactory position. Please dismantle and deconstruct these random thoughts as needed, thanks :) Chris Day 12:13, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
Also check out Cadmium for a potentially good example of the tab feature. In this case the subpage Cadmium/MSDS is used rather than the more obscure Catalogs tab. Further, the Infobox can link to sections in that MSDS subpage. Chris Day 15:34, 24 April 2008 (CDT)


Noel, didn't you offer to copyedit Michael Faraday? Approval will be soon and it is better that you do it before. Thank you, --Paul Wormer 12:53, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Article structure

Question for you on CZ talk:Article structure. --Larry Sanger 15:40, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Romanization Proposal

Hey Noel-- You got the same email I did, I think, but I was wondering if you would mind being the other co-sponsor (along with me and Anthony) for the Romanization proposal. You are one of the very select group of people who has paid attention to the proposal at all, and the only other one (as far as I know) who is a member of the Editorial Council. It's not a big deal if not-- I'm sure we can find someone else, but you seemed like a logical choice. Thanks, Brian P. Long 05:24, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

Never mind about this-- Roger Lohmann has already asked to be the co-sponsor for the proposal. Thanks anyway! Brian P. Long 09:53, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

Two things

First, Noel: can you make a case for requiring the "strings" package to the citizendium tools list? And second, I'd like to send you some interview questions for the next issue of the Citizen; would you be intetrested? --Robert W King 10:00, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

Need some advice

Noel, I recently created a new article Large-scale trickle filters for wastewater treatment ... which is quite a mouthful. I did that so as to exclude any future editing to include small, rural residential trickle filters which deserve a separate article.

But I am having second thoughts. Perhaps, the article title could be shortened to "Large-scale trickle filters" and still accomplish what I want. I have not yet made up my mind on this.

But if I did decide to change the title, would you please give me the step-by-step procedure for moving an article and all of its subpages (including the Metadata and Approval pages)? I am not asking you to do it for me. I would much rather you told me how to do it ... so that I can learn to do it myself.

Thanks in advance, Milt -- Milton Beychok 17:08, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Noel. I have read the article you suggested on how to move an article. I have only one question. After moving the subpages, do I move the article Talk page before or after moving the MetaData page? - Milton Beychok 01:36, 27 April 2008 (CDT)
Noel, you asked for feedback on CZ:Using the Subpages template#Moving an article with subpages. I found it to be quite understandable. The only thing I would suggest is that it should make it very clear that the main article and its assocated Talk page are the last things to be moved. Thanks again, - Milton Beychok 13:26, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm not making more work for you, I promise..

Hi Noel, I've got a question for you since you seem to be more familiar with the various help/how-to pages than I am. Whenever I notice a question about what English variant to use, I refer people to CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0005. This is not something that anyone who didn't already know it was there would find. I'm wondering if this information is a more visible location that I am unaware of? I've checked Article Mechanics but didn't see it. --Todd Coles 12:56, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

{{Physical properties}}

Chris/Richard/Noel, would one of you be able to take a look at Phosphorus/MSDS#Physical__Properties and help me figure out how to get rid of the extra whitespace in the Mass and Electronegativity cells? I'm stumped. It looks like it's coming from the line breaks in between lines in {{Physical properties}}, but when I remove them, the table stops recognizing the new rows for some crazy reason...#^%$!!!. It seems like it's possibly something so simple someone with a fair amount of wikitable knowlege will scoff at it, but sadly, that aint me. So, if you have a couple of minutes to spare, please...scoff away :-) --David Yamakuchi 21:45, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

Never mind. I got it!--David Yamakuchi 23:07, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

I just blatently stole something I saw on the metadata templates. If you see a more elegant way to do the same thing, then please do implement...--David Yamakuchi 20:42, 29 April 2008 (CDT)


How can you not love this name? ;) Chris Day 00:23, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

No, no, not a joke. It's a crap name. You're right. But now you mention catch 22, we could always make up some yarn for it's "true" meaning. Chris Day 00:32, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
Light dawns on Blockhead?  :) And who is this DaVinci fellow? Artist and scientist you say? Next you'll be telling me he was an engineer too! Chris Day 00:40, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
I was playing on the famous Schulz phrase from peanuts "you blockhead Charlie Brown", isn't the port Marblehead? Chris Day 00:46, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
Ah, i missed the sarcasm, and we agree on Calvin and Hobbes. I am no CB fan but I do rememeber that line. Chris Day 00:55, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
OK, not sarcasm, feigned ignorance. Either way I missed it. Chris Day 01:00, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Wikipedia template

Do you still see the same problem with the footer going over the wikipedia template at Talk:Yangtze Patrol? And I agree the talk page blurb is better hidden. We can always go back to the original format once people get a sense for whther they like it this way or not. . Chris Day 01:43, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

header footer update

Yes I did see the reply thanks. I just got finished adding the code that means any subpage tab generated by using tab1-tab3 will use a specific header or footer, if they exists. If not, the default will be to use the generic Tab header and Tab header. I have also set it up so that the category Experimental subpage is added to a subpage that is missing either the CZ:Subpage name or the Category:Subpage name. It needs to have both to lose the automatic addition of the experimental category tag. You can see an example at Lead where tab1-tab3 are all used with only the test subpage having both CZ:Test and Category:AS-Test. Iron has an Isotopes subpage that uses a defined {{AS-Isotopes header}} template rather than the generic {{Tab header}} template used by all three of the tab defined subpages in the Lead article. I will work to refine this tomorrow night incorporating some more of your ideas. Good night. Chris Day 01:57, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Let me see if I understand this: If you have "tab1=Foo", then if either 'CZ:Foo' or 'Category:Foo' does not exist, then you stick the page in 'Category:Experimental subpage'?
I'm still debating the concept of naming the header/footer templates {{AS-Isotopes header}}, etc; my first thought was that it would reduce the likelihood of a name clash with another template, but somehow I think {Isotopes header} (etc) are already pretty unique. Can't hurt, though - and it also enables us to find them all quickly, because of the "AS-" at the start of the name, which is probably a Good Thing.
Sorry I bailed on you last night with no warning - I basically just keeled over! J. Noel Chiappa 19:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
My idea for the experimental page is that if someone is blundering around with the tab1-tab3 options the chances of them filling creting a CZ:foo page AND a Category:Foo are very remote. Thus such a category gives us a chance to monitor these types of errors before they become chronic. Hopefully this would mean sorting through the AS-foo prefix group is not required; a last resort. Chris Day 20:21, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

A possible tagging system i just added as a kludge for trying to find the different article specific subpagenames is [[Special:Prefixindex/Category:AS-subpagename]] as well as [[Special:Prefixindex/Category:Group-AS-subpagename]]. Check out this link for what we have so far. AS stand for Article specific, do you think that needs to be spelled out? Chris Day 03:07, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Is there some functional difference between the first two, or are they just different possible names? If the latter, either one would be OK, but I'm a 'keep it short and simple' kind of guy, so I'd go with 'AS-subpagename'; that's a lot better than the long one I suggested! And there's no need to spell it out, I think - but others may feel different.
Speaking of others, you want me to bang out a rough draft of the /Proposal for this? J. Noel Chiappa 19:35, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
Only difference is that the group-AS-subpagename one represents a reduced set. I guess it depends on how many of these article specific subpages will develop. I suspect AS-subpagename is sufficient and the group ones can be more conventional. I definitely need to write this up as a proposal. Probably a simple version as well as a more technical one. (not to mention the sub-workgroup one!). Chris Day 20:21, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Talk pages and hide buttons

Hi, Noel: The Talk pages suddenly unhide the MetaData Page and the Checklist page. Is this going to be permanent? The Hide buttons work but only until I have left the Talk page. When I return again, those pages are unhidden again.

For what it is worth, I vote for leaving them hidden all the time. - Milton Beychok 12:05, 29 April 2008 (CDT)