User talk:Robert W King: Difference between revisions

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imported>Peter Schmitt
imported>Pat Palmer
(I intend to return to Computers soon)
 
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==Timeline==
I just noticed we were playing tag on the DNA timeline, I thought I was losing my mind ;) I discovered that the ''correct'' length is dependant on the width of the browser.  That is why it is different on my browser compared to your browser. Did you try using a tables structure to build the timeline.  One advantage of that would be the length of the cell on the left would vary proportionally with the timelines length. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:11, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
:see [[Template:Timeline/Sample]] --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 22:16, 10 April 2008 (CDT)
I noticed you were changing widths to be in terms of pixels rather than %-ages? I never like doing things in terms of pixels, because for those on very small or very large screens (I have some old laptops with 600 pixel screens, so I'm sensitive to this - not everyone around the world has the latest and greatest), it gives a bad look. What's the problem with using %-ages?
Also, I see you were manually bolding all the dates. Why not have an optional "date=" parameter to {{tl|TLevent}} which does the bolding inside the template? That way if you want to change the look of timelines, you don't have to edit every page which uses them. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 10:48, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:As Chris pointed out earlier, the wordwrap in percentages causes problems with the stem either being too short or too long based on the width of the browser.  Fixed widths turn out to be better, unless I can figure out a way to improve the stem.  Also, there's other work to be done on the template which I just haven't got around to doing yet, with much improvements to be made.  They're all on my mental list.  I'm just rrrreeeallly slacking on it. --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 10:55, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:I just thought of a problem having a data parameter; some entries are just one line, while some have one year and multiple things happen during that year, which involve having a list.  You'll need a carriage return to begin the list, but if you include one by default, the event stuff will automatically be on the next line even if it's just a single entry.  What I thought about doing was making it like so:  <code><nowiki>|-[date]-[event    ]</nowiki></code> but I'm not entirely sure it's aesthetically pleasing. --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 11:27, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
:: Too bad about the bugs. I wonder if it would make any sense to pass the %-age in as an argument, and then, inside the {{tl|TLevent}}, convert it to pixels there? [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 14:43, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
== [[Template:H:title]] ==
I saw your experiment in your sandbox in the recent changes.  That's really cool.  Can you make the text in the box that pops up when you hover over a link show the text in the definition template for that page?  That would be wonderful!<br>--[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 15:37, 12 April 2008 (CDT)
:It's used on Related Articles subpages.  See [[Tecum_Umam/Related_Articles]] for an example.<br>--[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 16:54, 12 April 2008 (CDT)
==Experiment==
Still not eactly sure what you have in mind but I have set up an experiment on the biology workgroup.  See [[CZ:Biology_Workgroup#Lower_priority]] and siilar sections.  The {{tl|WgTable}} template can distinguish redirects too. There is one bug that is a pain, there cannot be a space between the article name and the pipe (or brackets) otherwise the status call to the metadata template does not work.  For example, <nowiki>{{WgTable| Biology | Life }}</nowiki> does not work but <nowiki>{{WgTable| Biology| Life}}</nowiki> does work. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 11:03, 15 April 2008 (CDT)
== Transparency ==
I think you must have been thinking of someone else? I was staying out of that one... :-) [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 10:27, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
== Why was the TOC of [[:Compressibility factor (gases)]] relocated? ==
Robert, I don't understand why you moved the TOC of the article to the right. It is not a major point, but I think it looked much  better on the left, as it was originally, without any text wrapped to the right of the TOC.
When the TOC is located on the right and the text is wrapped to the left of the TOC, the wrapped text looks cramped and less readable ... at least, it does look so to me. Would you mind if I moved it back to the left where it was when I wrote the article? Regards, - [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 12:25, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
:Up to you; I thought stylistically it looked better. --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 12:29, 16 April 2008 (CDT)
== minor edit please ==
Hello Robert.  Could you check the "minor edit" button when you are making so many edits?  That way we can hit the
hide minor edits button on the recent changes page to see more items.  Thanks,  [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 15:10, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
:My apologies, I'm so guilty of not doing it.  --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 15:19, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
== CZ:Templates ==
Will do (if I can figure how how it works :-). [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 15:33, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
: In part, because there are still reference to them from quite a few talk: pages, etc, which might be confusing if the target's gone. I am accumulating a list of 'obsolete, deal with them' things, at [[User:J. Noel Chiappa/ToDo]], but I was putting off dealing with them for the moment. E.g. I want to check with Chris Day to make sure we don't need them, etc, etc. Someday! [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 15:57, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
::I just had a quick look through and many of those are false starts or obsolete.  We might want to keep some for historical purposes such as the vertical version of the buttons we were considering at one point. I'll try and work through them. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 16:32, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Hi, I did go through and update [[CZ:Templates]] to haave the stuff I just did, plus I deleted a bunch of entries for obsolete subpage templates we are about to ditch. I notice that the whole thing is somewhat out of date, though. I'll see if I can find time at some point to update it some more. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 22:21, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
== CZ authors ==
Robert, on the CZ Authors page and Editors page, it would like so much nicer if every name didn't start with
"User:".  Do you know of a way to automatically make all names like [[User:David E. Volk]] appear as [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] on the Authors and Editors pages?  It would certainly look much more professional and easier on the eyes.  [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 16:01, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Funny, I just noticed that it works automatically on this page on my signature. [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 16:02, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
: You mean [[:Category:CZ Authors]], right, not [[CZ:Authors]], which doesn't actually list any names.
: Short answer: "no". Slightly longer answer: "not easily; it would take a MediaWiki change". The list of constituent pages in a category is generated by MediaWiki code, and we have no control over it.
: Ironically, if you include a category in <nowiki>[[Talk:Foo]]</nowiki>, when you go look at the category, it only lists <nowiki>[[Foo]]</nowiki> - very confusing! I don't know if this is a 'bug' or a 'feature'. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 17:22, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
::Its a feature, it was done so that all the clean up etc. categories could live on the talk page but not all be listed as Talk:Foo. I see no reason why this could not be done for the User pages too. We should start a thread in the technical section of the forum to see if this sounds like a good idea to others. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:26, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
::: Probably ought to be controllable on a per-category basis, through magic words such as __NOTALK__ and __NOUSER__. I think it's a good idea, but we have no active MediaWiki hackers at the moment (although I keep threatening... :-), so I'm not sure the thread's much use. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 17:42, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
==timelines example==
I have two pdf to send you.  I can't attach them using the CZ e-mail option, send me an e-mail and I'll rely to it. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 16:29, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
== Template Recursion ==
I had first posted this to Noel's Talk, but as one of our most skilled "templatologists" I thought you might perhas have some insight also...
<blockquote>
Well, I saw that where you linked me to the MediaWiki docs it says we can't do this, but this[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Image:Editorial_Council_Category_Recursion_screenshot.JPG] is basically what I was talking about _trying_ to do. So,...how dey do dat?  ([http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Editorial_Council Category:Editorial_Council])
</blockquote><blockquote>
Now, the template that is "called" to produce this, {{tl|Editorial Council}} "calls" another one named {{tl|Community}}, and that one kinda hurts my brain...or at least I'm having trouble seeing how we end up with what we do.  Thing is, it's not really what we want for this template, I don't think...it really does look to me as if the author of {{tl|Editorial Council}} didn't intend this to be the result.  So now it's maybe really two things I'm asking...
#how dey do dat?
#how do we '''''not''''' do the recursion here, and so get the intended results?
Ain't computers fun!? :^) --[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 22:33, 18 April 2008 (CDT)
</blockquote>
== Newsletter ==
Robert, I could write a bit in the newsletter about the proposals going through the system if you want. I've been planning to write a weekly email, but I can't seem to find the time to do so; perhaps a less frequent but more substantial update would work. If you agree, please let me know when you'd like to have the text, and any other constraints (length?). Cheers, [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 10:01, 20 April 2008 (CDT)
== Your proposal on "Article Content Request help" ==
I have not seen any action on [[CZ:Proposals/Article Content Request help]] for a long time, so the proposal has now become inactive and I moved it to [[CZ:Proposals/Driverless]]. If you want to revive the proposal, just update the deadline in the proposal record and start working on it. -- The Proposals Manager, [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 11:08, 20 April 2008 (CDT)
==font style==
See this and the link for the full context: [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Optional3&action=edit <nowiki>[[CZ:{{{1}}}|</font><font size=1>[?]]]</font></nowiki>] [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 10:48, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
:See what i did [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template%3APeriodic&diff=100317953&oldid=100314360  to periodic]. Is that what you were thinking.  Obviously you can move the ? to a different location.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 11:59, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
== Article specific subpages ==
Check out [[cadmium]] and the [[Cadmium/MSDS]] subpage. The subpage is created by using tab1=MSDS in the metadata. We could also add tab2=Isotopes  and one other tab3=?.  This might be more intuitive than having all the chemical information in a Catalog subpage.  I tweeked the {{tl|Elem Infobox}} so the headers now link to the MSDS subpage.  I plan to write this up as a proposal so we can get approval from the editorial council. I would be intereasted to get your feedback before I start on this proposal.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 15:48, 24 April 2008 (CDT)
== Project "What Else" ==
Looks like an interesting coding problem to solve...I see that bots do a lot of cool stuff around here, but I don't know a lot about them.  It sounds like a good excuse to push for the "strings package" for our Media Wiki implementation [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|Noel]] had mentioned to help with parsing a bunch of text into a friendly format...or at least that's my initial reaction to the idea...--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 09:43, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
== MSDS ==
Think of the InfoBox as a collection of handy links to have if you are looking at an element...the ones that folks that look at elemental info would tend to be likely to want to click on.  Thats how it makes sense to me '''''but'''''...if the same links and or information are readily available on the page anyway, then you're right, the infobox '''is''' redundant and we don't need it...I think.--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 12:50, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
I'm still tweaking the {{tl|Physical properties}} to get it a little more user friendly...See [[Lead/MSDS]] and [[Scandium/MSDS]].  Also in a short time I will begin trying to implement it as a tabe to improve visual consistency and eliminate some unsightly whitespace issues. Is there some unexpected behavior I'm not aware of?--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 14:24, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
If you think {{tl|Template:Physical properties/Physical Properties}} is odd, just take a look at what shows up on the top of the {{tl|Physical properties}} page.  It's because there is no "{{tl|Template:Physical properties/Physical Properties}}", but I seem to be unable to make a template the (/) of another template or something I think...basically because that's not how the template was supposed to work in the first place.  If you can think of a way to make it look better and perform the same then by all means...  :-) ... --[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 14:38, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
==Skin bugs==
note to myself:
Skin bugs:
*no vlink color
*no alink color
*no category listing below articles
*no box surrounding categories
*missing discussion page has no differenting color to indicate its missing status
*no bold on ; lines
*no box around "new messages" and "version ends here" notices (see approved/draft talk page for reference)
*no border around <nowiki><pre></nowiki> elements
*line space issues with : and :: responses
*table values do not scale correctly (see my user page for example; 33% width is not respected on variable browser width)
*gallery images are still flush left
*footnotes are not using <nowiki><small></nowiki> or are not of reduced size causing irregularity in line height
== Interview, etc ==
Sure, I'd be happy to do an interview. How? Phone?
About the strings package: is there someone/someway to actually get it loaded? As far as I can tell, we have no active MediaWiki developers at the moment (i.e. people who can load in new PHP code). Who/where/how do we make the case for MediaWiki updates/etc anyway? [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 22:36, 26 April 2008 (CDT)
:If you need help making a case for a strings package: The {{Tl|Resizable Periodic Table of Elements}} has a design problem in that it can populate values like mass, atomic number, etc. directly from the articles "subpages" but when the authors eventually enter the data with various units and such, they will be displayed automatically causing the layout of the table to be so large that it is effectively unusable.  I suspect that the strings package would allow us to do some basic truncation operations and get the Table to display consistently. 
:And this is only today's bug.  "Yesterday's bug" as it were, would possibly allow us to shrink {{tl|WG Table}} and support a table size of "n+1" with a small pre-expand footprint rather than the table size of 100 that we now use which has a large one.
:What will we think of to do with it tomorrow once we get some experience using it?--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 13:57, 27 April 2008 (CDT)
== {{tl|Physical properties}} ==
Chris/Richard/Noel, would one of you be able to take a look at [[Phosphorus/MSDS#Physical__Properties]] and help me figure out how to get rid of the extra whitespace in the Mass and Electronegativity cells?  I'm stumped. It looks like it's coming from the line breaks in between lines in {{tl|Physical properties}}, but when I remove them, the table stops recognizing the new rows for some crazy reason...#^%$!!!.  It seems like it's possibly something so simple someone with a fair amount of wikitable knowlege will scoff at it, but sadly, that aint me. So, if you have a couple of minutes to spare, please...scoff away :-) --[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 21:44, 27 April 2008 (CDT)
:Never mind. I got it!--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 23:08, 27 April 2008 (CDT)
== IUPAC names ==
If you want to start learning organic chemistry nomenclature, I recommend you take the approach my textbook (and instructor) used: Start with the basic hydrocarbons. Alkanes, then alkenes, then alkynes. Touch on cyclic compounds and stereochemistry along the way...preferably pretty early on. If you dont have a textbook, here:( [http://www.acdlabs.com/iupac/nomenclature/93/r93_35.htm]  [http://chemistry.boisestate.edu/people/richardbanks/organic/nomenclature/organicnomenclature1.htm] or if you must...[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUPAC_nomenclature_of_organic_chemistry] ) are some other options. 
I feel like I should warn you here...you might want to pack a lunch. Even tho it's only a small percentage of the total of the IUPAC naming conventions, that much covers a significant portion of 1st semester Organic terminology...
_but_...
If you can get thru those five basic bits of nomenclature, you've got a pretty good headstart towards reading chemical names...IMHO...--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 15:58, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
== CZ:CZ article ==
Please see [[User:Jitse Niesen/Proposals system report]], for inclusion in the forthcoming issue. It's a bit later than I had intended; I hope that's not too much of a problem. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 07:43, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
== name ==
I responded to your recent question [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk%3ANaval_Base_Guantanamo_Bay&diff=100322687&oldid=100322117 here].
Cheers!  [[User:George Swan|George Swan]] 11:49, 1 May 2008 (CDT)
== Bot for moving definitions into subpages ==
Hi Robert, please take a look at [[User_talk:Chris_Day#Subpage_for_def.3F|this discussion]] and comment. I can't write such a script but I gather you could, and I would be glad to assist with it. Thanks. -- [[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 10:38, 7 May 2008 (CDT)
==Wikipedia Signpost covering Citizendium==
Hi!  The ''Signpost'', Wikipedia's counterpart to ''The Citizen'', is planning to run a story on Citizendium in the upcoming issue, on or within a few days of May 12.  Since you seem to follow the happenings on Citizendium, I thought you might like to take a look at the draft, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ragesoss/Citizendium_2 here].  Any comments, suggestions or criticisms before publication would be most welcome.  Cheers--[[User:Sage Ross|Sage Ross]] 13:11, 10 May 2008 (CDT)
== Get well soon ==
Sorry to hear about your hand, Robert--get well soon. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:32, 11 May 2008 (CDT)
Ditto--[[User:David Yamakuchi|Dave]] 14:54, 11 May 2008
Me too! I had a recent hand accident myself (finger meets table saw), so I sympathize. (If you're interested, you can see the result [http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/jpg/finger.jpg here]. Good (non-shocking!) illustration for a safety poster, I expect!) Hope yours improves steadily and quickly. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 15:26, 11 May 2008 (CDT)
Ditto!  You poor kid, that sounds awful.  Hope you're feeling better. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:45, 18 May 2008 (CDT)
==Your template {{tl|pl}} is really cool!==
Robert: Chris Day just applied your template to the list of my created articles on my Talk page ... and it is really cool!! Just wanted to let you know I like it a lot. - [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 14:11, 12 May 2008 (CDT)
== Timeline template ==
Hi Robert. I wonder if you could take a look at a time line I have been working on. My apologies if this is a work-in-progress, but some of the testing I've done may prove useful in some attempt to solve the problem. I made a series of edits to try to get the line to connect. See particularly [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=The_Troubles_%28Ireland%29/Timelines&oldid=100332122 this version], [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=The_Troubles_%28Ireland%29/Timelines&oldid=100332120this one], [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=The_Troubles_%28Ireland%29/Timelines&oldid=100332119this one] and [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=The_Troubles_%28Ireland%29/Timelines&oldid=100332101 this one]. Basically I was trying to shuffle the text around to see how it affected the display. FYI I am using Firefox 2.0.0.14 and a screen res of 1024x768, if that helps.
I'm considering using the '''Tlsubevent''' template now as well, now that I've discovered it.
Hope you get better soon - I managed to slice the top of my finger with scissors yesterday.. nothing as serious-looking as your own problem, mind you! Cheers, --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 11:11, 15 May 2008 (CDT)
Update: I've added the subevent template to the time line, and I don't know if I've done something wrong or not, but the text doesn't wrap for the entries which use it. --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 12:03, 15 May 2008 (CDT)
: Hey Robert. Thanks for fixing that time line. I've come across another problem, in that the left-most line doesn't extend beyond the subtemplates for the 1969 entries. --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 13:22, 16 May 2008 (CDT)
:: Does the trick. Thanks again Robert. :) --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 20:37, 16 May 2008 (CDT)
== Arguments to Dambigbox ==
Hi, got a quick question I'd appreciate feedback on at [[Template talk:Dambigbox]]; didn't want to fiddle with it more without checking with you. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 16:11, 22 May 2008 (CDT)
==Hover template==
I'm not quite sure what you had in mind? Would this be for Related Pages lists, or disambiguation pages, or what? I think it would be cool to use it for all interpage links (so that when you hover over a link, it shows the /Definition), but that would be a certain amount of work to backfit it (although I suppose a bot could do it). We'd define an {{tl|L}} template, and change all <nowiki>[[Foo]] to {{L|Foo]]</nowiki> - easy enough to code up. [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 19:55, 25 May 2008 (CDT)
== Hand update? ==
Hey, how's the hand doing? Did the stiches come out OK? [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 10:48, 4 June 2008 (CDT)
: Hey, thanks for the update. Really glad to hear that you've got some motion in the joint - but don't push it too hard, too fast! A relapse would be bad... (as if you weren't already perfectly aware of that, sigh...) Cut tendons in the fingers (well, lots of places, but fingers are among the worst) give me the heebie-jeebies; fingers (sic :-) crossed for you that the healing stays on course well! (Bad as my table-saw encounter was, I luckily had no tendon damage, so I'm definitely feeling like you have it a lot worse than me...) [[User:J. Noel Chiappa|J. Noel Chiappa]] 07:19, 25 June 2008 (CDT)
== Could you do this? ==
Robert:
When one goes to his/her "View and edit watchlist" at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Special:Watchlist&action=edit here], there is a list of all the articles being watched. That list is not alphabetized on Citizendium. It is alphabetized on Wikipedia, which means that it can be done.
When one has 70 or more articles being watched (as I do), it is extremely helpful to have the "View and edit watchlist" page alphabetized. Is this something you could do? If not, who can you refer me to someone that can do it? Thanks in advance, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 17:18, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
Hi, Robert: Have you decided whether or not this is something you could do? After your hand has healed, of course. Please let me know. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 21:53, 26 July 2008 (CDT)
:Robert, never mind. Greg Sabino fixed it. - [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 12:11, 31 July 2008 (CDT)
== Re: Arm trouble ==
Yes, thanks, I have lots of pills and am slowly recovering. At least mine is a repetitive strain injury and didn't involve any blood! - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:13, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
== New Article on Gender ==
Hi, Robert -- I don't know if you noticed, but I've started a new article on gender on [[User:Timothy Perper/Sandbox]]. Since you commented and made some changes to the present (one paragraph) [[gender]] stub, I thought you might be interested in seeing how I'm revising the whole article. For my credentials for undertaking the revision, please see [[User:Timothy Perper]]. Hope you come by and comment. [[User:Timothy Perper|Timothy Perper]] 18:44, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
== Restart of proposal system ==
Hello. Due to a lack of activity and attention on my part, the Proposal System has ground to a halt and discussion on all proposals has stopped. I decided to clean out the system by marking all proposals as inactive and removing their drivers. This also happened to your proposal [[CZ:Proposals/Unified Feature-Rich Workgroup page design template|"Unified Feature-Rich Workgroup page design template"]]. I would be delighted if you decide that you want to take the proposal up again. You can do this by updating the proposal record, which can now be found at [[CZ:Proposals/Driverless]]. Please do not hesitate to ask if anything is unclear. Yours, [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 22:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC) (Proposals Manager)
==Starting Article==
Hi Robert! I started to add to Abstract expressionism when I realized that it may not be a main article. Please let me know how can I move the one that I have been working on to a main article? ([[User:Marika Herskovic|Marika Herskovic]] 12:05, 7 April 2009 (UTC))
== Template:Image Category parse ==
Robert, could you tell me what [[Template:Image Category parse|this]] is for? Thanks. [[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 07:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
== Rob, haven't seen you in AGES! ==
Sending a quick ‘hello’ out to all of you who wanted a weekend write-a-thon.  Also, a nudge, push, and a shove to all those who haven’t made it out in a while.  This Sunday, 10th January, is your [[CZ:Monthly Write-a-Thon|Big Chance]].  Party theme is ‘stubs’.  Now, what could be easier?  Write about anything you want!  (At least come on over and say ‘hi’—we’ve all been much too quiet lately and I rather miss everybody.) [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 20:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
== He's ALIVE ==
Haha!  Good to see you stop by!  Are you stickiing around???!!!  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 19:38, 1 May 2011 (CDT)
:Heck, time flies fast.  I'm incredibly busy with school.  Maybe.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 04:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
::Haha, blast from the past!  We can use some help - especially yours! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 17:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
:::Holy Cow!!!  Could I possibly bribe you??? [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 11:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
::::A grant or a scholarship wouldn't hurt any :)  What do you mean we can use help?  Everything seems to be fine, except for the History of Computing article which has been reverted to a disaster.  I imagine there's a lot of my stuff that doesn't work anymore. [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 16:58, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::Also I've noticed that WP now has an interesting rating system for their pages, and I wonder how much it will help. [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 17:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
:Glad to see you back in here, Robert![[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] 12:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
::Me too. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


== Why is contribution down lately? ==
== Why is contribution down lately? ==
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For those interested in the TL;DR version: do something about the hole in the boat first while you start pitching out water as fast as you can; it's almost sunk.  It would be a shame to lose something with a noble intent and have it completely fail.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 22:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
For those interested in the TL;DR version: do something about the hole in the boat first while you start pitching out water as fast as you can; it's almost sunk.  It would be a shame to lose something with a noble intent and have it completely fail.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 22:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


: I do not have the opportunity to fully join this discussion since I am often away from home right now. When talking about low contrbution we should not count edits -- this is not the most important parameter. It is much more serious that CZ lost more active authors (disregarding proficiency) than it gained. Of those still here some contribute less content than before. Often this is caused by being occupied by other issues (administration, etc.) but some may hesitate to invest effert in a project that has a very uncertain future. It is easier to gain contributors for a growing project than for a stagnating one. (I just heard the news that WP also loses editors -- but that does not help CZ much, doesn't it.)
: I do not have the opportunity to fully join this discussion since I am often away from home right now. When talking about low contrbution we should not count edits -- this is not the most important parameter. It is much more serious that CZ lost more active authors (disregarding proficiency) than it gained. Of those still here some contribute less content than before. Often this is caused by being occupied by other issues (administration, etc.) but some may hesitate to invest effort in a project that has a very uncertain future. It is easier to gain contributors for a growing project than for a stagnating one. (I just heard the news that WP also loses editors -- but that does not help CZ much, doesn't it?)
: Personally, I feel that new content is now less important than putting effort in shaping the environment for a better future. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
: Personally, I feel that new content is now less important than putting effort in shaping the environment for a better future. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
::I agree on all points there Peter.  Content is still important though(people judge sites by it now that WP has set some kind of metric for wiki standards).  WP loses editors and authors because the project is reaching or has reached critical mass; the amount of new information able to be documented (without getting into obscure information, which WP frowns upon) is shrinking at a quick pace, and so out of sheer boredom and "completion", people are leaving because they simply aren't needed anymore.  I think Communication of the ACM did an article on this some time ago.  If only we had that problem here, but the environment required to attract growth (with a certain standard) somehow just isn't here.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 00:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
:::Actually, the WP edit rate reached a plateau in 2007. Since then the same amount of work has been distributed over an ever-increasing numberf articles. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 10:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::Are you sure about that?  I distinctly remember reading what I wrote about; maybe it was in IEEE Spectrum magazine instead of Communications of the ACM.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 14:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
:::::The two statements aren't necessarily incompatible. The information I gave was drawn from a graph published on WP itself, in a discussion somewhere. I could track it down if it's important. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 16:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::You're right, they aren't, and it's not that important to the scope of this topic.  :) [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 17:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::: Of course, Robert, content is the most important issue at all and always will be, but CZ must focus on quality instead of quantity. Ideally all present content should be checked if it is acceptable under our claim of reliability. (Some embarrassing material may have to be made invisible.) However, the most important task is finding a sustainable and long-lasting hosting solution, the next important (probably related) task is promoting CZ and making it (again) well-known. Unfortunately I have neither the skills nor the means to help with these tasks -- that's why I concentrate on other issues. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 22:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I'd like to give a quick sarcastic kudos to RationalWiki.  Thanks for keeping this whole debacle up-to-date, guys.  I hope this makes your WIGO:CZ feed.  [[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 18:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
:For what it's worth, I intend to return to writing (and editing, if requested) in Computers after the end of this year, if the project is still limping along at that point.  I'm teaching now at night (a second job) and so have very little free time.  However, I have felt good enough about content here sometimes to send students here to read some things instead of to Wikipedia.  Let's don't all quit just yet.  I still have hopes that we may revive the project, but I've not been able to do much towards that at present due to my double work life.[[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] 18:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 13:18, 13 October 2011

[User bio is in User:Your Name]

Why is contribution down lately?

Any ideas? Robert W King 17:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, the most obvious reason is that by far the most prolific contributor has been banned. And then there are those who have reduced or halted their contributions because they're not happy with the way the site's being run. And others may be able to suggest other reasons. You might like to discuss it at RationalWiki, where they find this site holds a horrible fascination. Peter Jackson 17:33, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I'd speculate that (i) the financial situation casts a shadow over the future, and (ii) the quality of articles is declining as the number of participants to keep things in review is too small. A snowball effect may be in progress. John R. Brews 18:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, then. Robert W King 17:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
It was fun while it lasted! Feel free to email me or leave a message on my page if you wish to stay in contact while I pursue my academia. (I am not optimistic.) Robert W King 17:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes' we've lost Howard Berkowitz who was very prolific. His abundant edits did tend to make recent changes look impressive, and overall the other contributions are down some as well. A couple of our editors jumped ship when the financial situation caused them concern that their edits wouldn't last. This is a quiet time of year, though, so I am looking for things to pick up once school goes back in session. That could just be my optimistic outlook! The good news is that we now have some case law that can help quell behavior issues before they drive people away this time. D. Matt Innis 03:30, 6 August 2011
I'm concerned that some of the external analyses of the project are accurate and that there are some serious issues with the way things have been run; so much so that I have less reasons to be optimistic. I've vaguely caught up on some of the issues and while I can see why they happened, I don't agree with the methodology. Also I'm troubled by the adoption of... "fringe" subjects and being a staunch atheist and someone who is dedicated to factual representation and presentation, I'm not sure I am motivated enough to continue on (but let it be known: I'm not here to drag the wiki through the mud on these issues, they're just my personal motivations.) Robert W King 18:11, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I believe the main advantage of CZ over WP is the environment for contributors, which is much less subject to crackpot criticism than WP. I attribute that improvement to having full disclosure of identity, rather than attributing it to the supposed emphasis of CZ upon "experts". Unfortunately, many CZ contributors left anyway and went off to niche wikis like Knowino. It is important to know why this happened. I was too late to actually witness any of these departures, with the exception of Howard. That episode did CZ no good, and showed the so-called "experts" were no better at reaching agreement than the Tea Party. Aside from pissing matches, however, some departures seem to be the result of simple impatience of "expert" contributors with criticism, a tendency to think that their expertise included an undeniable ability at exposition, while actually some long-winded interaction was necessary for the presentation to develop so it could reach a broad readership, as opposed to communication with the more familiar audience of cognoscenti. Some CZ environmental development is needed to help prima donnas to work together. John R. Brews 18:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
John states my view well. I also understand your concern about fringe, but I think context is everything. Fringe is out there; if we don't cover it, we won't be complete. The trick is how we cover it. The "external analysis" you mention is likely a one sided view. Surely those sites aren't meant to be the authoritative answer for how to deal with fringe content, but simply a tool for like minded people to drive one point of view. I have no problem with those views, or with web sites whose purpose is to generate and perpetuate those views - they are actually fodder for us to produce the more balanced view. Ultimately, however, neutrality is the direction that we are committed to follow; some don't want that - or at least don't understand how it works. Everyone is welcome as long as they can write neutrally and act professionally - editors and authors alike. That has always been our genre. Nothing wrong with being an athiest, or a devout Buddhist. As for administration, its job is to get the best from everyone. I think we have the tools in place to keep working in that direction now. At least I don't seem to be spending my time holding "prima donnas" at bay! D. Matt Innis 13:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I get what you guys are saying, I really do. However you can't just ignore external criticisms and say that they're a conjecture of crackpots and agenda pushers, because sometimes they aren't (even if they *seem* negative or you just don't like what they have to say). They should absolutely be taken with a grain of salt, but being dismissive of external perception is dangeous, unless you choose to adopt this "We simply don't care and f what the other people say!" kind of totalitarianism.
And sure, it can be a goal to reduce drama or problem users over time; no one wants constant headaches from people who cause issues in your community, but sometimes outright and unprecedented removal isn't the way to go (and I'm not talking about Howard here, just in general now that there *is* a precedent.)
I am also completely aware of the goal of a knowledge wiki to cover the entire gamut of ... well knowledge, but even when you have dubious or contentious issues covered on your site, it is ethically responsible to make sure they are covered in a factual way, and not by people who are experts whose main motivation is continue pushing untruthful and innaccurate information DESPITE their volume of knowledge on the topic. Just because someone is entirely obsessive and "well-informed" (contextual) about boogeymen doesn't mean that boogeymen *actually exist*, and that's the part that worries me. Robert W King 16:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
"...it is ethically responsible to make sure they are covered in a factual way, and not by people who are experts whose main motivation is continue pushing untruthful and innaccurate information DESPITE their volume of knowledge on the topic..." I am sure that we are talking about the same thing. I am just confused that you might think that this isn't the case here. D. Matt Innis 16:19, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
(CC) Image: John R. Brews & Aleksander Stos
Page edits from statistics page with superposed trend lines.

outdent Good points, Robert; maybe not so obvious in how to implement. I'm also inclined to point out that contributions to CZ are not just articles and amendments, nor even the important administrative functions. Contribution has to be fun, and commentary can make it more fun. As a particular example, I think a bit of a Procrustean-bed approach to rule-enforcement in the recent bruhaha was a bit myopic, and may be significant in explaining the recent downtrend in page-edit activity. John R. Brews 16:28, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Another good point, John. Consider the possibility that the recent past (since October 2009) has been preoccupied with the charter process and the subsequent disagreements/conversations and discussions about how to handle behavior. Actual content building (and those that build it - save Howard) took a back stage. Now that that process is complete, the contributions/edits related to that process are no longer necessary - and therefore the numbers of edits are down. D. Matt Innis 16:41, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
RE: The chart - As I pointed out on Daniel's page: Howard started in May of 2008, Larry Sanger took a sebatical in March of 2009, and the charter process started in October of 2009. D. Matt Innis 16:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the chart, the most recent decline has happened since Octoberish of 2010. Ideally, we're supposed to have user and article growth; so much so that having people do administrative work isn't supposed to drag down the productivity of the wiki. The overall trend from the graph does not look good and it's indicitive that we're not doing something right. I can't simply believe that summer break is what's killing us; the data doesn't reflect that. Robert W King 16:52, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you, Robert. The steady drop in edit activity is long and unprecedented on CZ, and is quite contrary to previous rebounds following setbacks. I suppose the hypothesis is that the steady drop is due to a steadily increasing diversion of edits to administrative matters during recent re-organization and away from the editing of articles. I don't think this distraction is likely to be a steadily increasing matter, especially over such a long period. In any event, that distraction is over, but editing of articles is not on an upswing. John R. Brews 16:58, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Larry was a driving force for public relations. This is what we are missing. I am encouraged that Larry is back on the MC and I would be surprised if that doesn't make the difference. One of Larry's principles, though, is to hand over activities to citizens. So, it behooves us to learn how to fund raise and interest others in the project (something that has not been done since Larry left in March of 2009). D. Matt Innis 17:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Again, that's fine, except there shouldn't be a mass exodus of edits just because users are changing responsibilities. Whatever it is that needs to be changed or done in order to increase contributions and users should be a priority, whatever that needs to be. Robert W King 17:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree. To start, we can do things that encourage discussion and conversation about article content and direction. Larry used to get us all involved in things like "The Big Delete" and "Core Article Development" and things that caused us all to see the loopholes and places that needed filling. Ideas such as red links in articles encouraged people to start new articles. Now they are filled with lemmas... there are many places that we can start. We just need leadership to draw us all back together and allow us to trust each other again, like we used to - regardless of our individual beliefs. We need something and someone that can heal the wounds that were caused by trying to divide us. We also need time. D. Matt Innis 17:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Seconded, but time is not on our side, Matt. Robert W King 18:22, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I hear ya! D. Matt Innis 20:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

For those interested in the TL;DR version: do something about the hole in the boat first while you start pitching out water as fast as you can; it's almost sunk. It would be a shame to lose something with a noble intent and have it completely fail. Robert W King 22:40, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I do not have the opportunity to fully join this discussion since I am often away from home right now. When talking about low contrbution we should not count edits -- this is not the most important parameter. It is much more serious that CZ lost more active authors (disregarding proficiency) than it gained. Of those still here some contribute less content than before. Often this is caused by being occupied by other issues (administration, etc.) but some may hesitate to invest effort in a project that has a very uncertain future. It is easier to gain contributors for a growing project than for a stagnating one. (I just heard the news that WP also loses editors -- but that does not help CZ much, doesn't it?)
Personally, I feel that new content is now less important than putting effort in shaping the environment for a better future. --Peter Schmitt 23:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree on all points there Peter. Content is still important though(people judge sites by it now that WP has set some kind of metric for wiki standards). WP loses editors and authors because the project is reaching or has reached critical mass; the amount of new information able to be documented (without getting into obscure information, which WP frowns upon) is shrinking at a quick pace, and so out of sheer boredom and "completion", people are leaving because they simply aren't needed anymore. I think Communication of the ACM did an article on this some time ago. If only we had that problem here, but the environment required to attract growth (with a certain standard) somehow just isn't here. Robert W King 00:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Actually, the WP edit rate reached a plateau in 2007. Since then the same amount of work has been distributed over an ever-increasing numberf articles. Peter Jackson 10:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember reading what I wrote about; maybe it was in IEEE Spectrum magazine instead of Communications of the ACM. Robert W King 14:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The two statements aren't necessarily incompatible. The information I gave was drawn from a graph published on WP itself, in a discussion somewhere. I could track it down if it's important. Peter Jackson 16:59, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
You're right, they aren't, and it's not that important to the scope of this topic.  :) Robert W King 17:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Of course, Robert, content is the most important issue at all and always will be, but CZ must focus on quality instead of quantity. Ideally all present content should be checked if it is acceptable under our claim of reliability. (Some embarrassing material may have to be made invisible.) However, the most important task is finding a sustainable and long-lasting hosting solution, the next important (probably related) task is promoting CZ and making it (again) well-known. Unfortunately I have neither the skills nor the means to help with these tasks -- that's why I concentrate on other issues. --Peter Schmitt 22:36, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to give a quick sarcastic kudos to RationalWiki. Thanks for keeping this whole debacle up-to-date, guys. I hope this makes your WIGO:CZ feed. Robert W King 18:53, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I intend to return to writing (and editing, if requested) in Computers after the end of this year, if the project is still limping along at that point. I'm teaching now at night (a second job) and so have very little free time. However, I have felt good enough about content here sometimes to send students here to read some things instead of to Wikipedia. Let's don't all quit just yet. I still have hopes that we may revive the project, but I've not been able to do much towards that at present due to my double work life.Pat Palmer 18:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)