User talk:Milton Beychok

Milton Beychok

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 Where Milt lives it is approximately: 11:41

Property list

Milt, I have taken your list from water and made a template Template:PropList which generates such a list.It can be used flexibly. To show the possiblities I have treated some of the properties as "requested", some as "optional", and the rest as "free". Do you think that this approach can be useful (after some adaption)? Peter Schmitt 02:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Peter, your template is excellent! I do have some minor edits to suggest and will do so later this evening or tomorrow sometime. I have something that I must finish at the moment. Thanks, Milton Beychok 02:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

This was a very quick response -- no hurry! (I am overdue for bed now ...) Peter Schmitt 02:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Peter, I would suggest that the optional arguments use capital letters as well as the requested arguments; that the boiling point be above the density; and "property1" be changed to "Other property 1" as shown below:

{{PropList 
| N = "Common name"                                                            
| I = "IUPAC name"
| C = "CAS number"
| F = "Molecular formula"
| M = "Molecular mass"
| B = "Boiling Point"
| D = "Density"
| "Other property 1" | "value"
   ...
| "Other property 9" | "value"
}}

The "Example" was confusing because the items were not in the same order as above and the boiling point was given twice (perhaps you intended that to show that the template would straighten those out, but it confused me). I suggest that it be revised like this:

{{PropList 
| N = water 
| I = oxidane  
| F = H<sub>2</sub>O
| M = 18.0153 g/mol
| B = 373.15 K (100 °C) at 1 atm
| D = 0.998 g/ml for liquid at 20 °C, 1 atm
| Critical point | 647 K (374 °C), 22.1 MPa
| Melting point | 273.15 K (0 °C)
| [[Specific heat]], c<sub>p</sub> | 4.184 J/(g·K) for liquid at 20 °C
| Heat of vaporization | 2257 J/g for liquid at 100 °C
| Heat of fusion | 333.55 J/kg for solid (ice) at 0 °C
| Viscosity | 0.001 Pa·s for liquid at 20 °C
| Refractive index| 1.333 for liquid at 20 °C
}}

If you don't like having capital letters for both the requested items and the optional items, then you could use bold capitals or red capitals for the requested items to differentiate them from the optional items.

That is the extent of my suggestions for the "Usage" and for the "Example". Again, I think your template is excellent. Milton Beychok 05:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I am glad you like it. I have made the changes you suggested. My choices were arbitrary and intended to test and show the functionality.
(Yes, I wanted to show the reordering effect in the example.) There may be more changes for further improvement.

• Of course, more arguments (of all types) may be added, and their names could also consist of more letters.
• I intend to add an optional parameter for the width of the columns.
• And the name of the template is also available for change.

Peter Schmitt 01:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad to see someone willing to do something positive without first polling everyone. Thanks, Peter. Milton Beychok 03:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I have added the arguments for setting the width. But it seems to be better to avoid them if possible. I have taken the initial settings from your "water" table and always wondered why one entry wrapped. Because of the current discussion on skins I tried others (Monobook and Modern -- I never changed the default): The line was not wrapped in these skins (Probably because a smaller font is used.) So these settings depend on skin and possibly also on the browser. Peter Schmitt 10:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

That strengthens my suggestion on the forums that we should have only one skin available, so that we all see articles the same way (other than whatever differences are cause by different browsers). I agree that perhaps it would be better to avoid setting the width. Just set an initial width that works in the current Pinkwich (which I think is dreadful) as well as Monobook and let it go at that. The setting now in Water works in my IE6 and in my Firefox 3.5.4. Also, have you noticed that (in Water) I nested the table in another table so as to avoid text impinging on the table? Milton Beychok 16:04, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) I started with the table as you constructed it, but later simplified it. I did not know much about tables, but learned a lot from this one. I think that it is best to set no width as a default because it may also depend on browser settings (at least, I think that it may).

Next, I shall look on properties of elements and try to include this list, too.

Are you aware that there are still about 10 subpages listing single properties but are no longer used? Such subpages exist in many cases. Should they stay until the list templates are replaced? This would require to request deletion separately. Or is ist easier to delete all of them in one step, and teplace the data from other sources?

Peter Schmitt 17:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I would guess that those 10 subpages you mentioned are for elements. I think there would be less chance of causing problems if they were separately replaced and deleted. I haven't done any checking, but it would appear to me that all of the CZ articles on elements (perhaps 90 plus in total) will need reworking or replacing of their Elem Infoboxes. I really think that on the elements, you should consult with David Volk and work closely with him rather than me. He would be much more knowledgeable on that subject than I am.

Look at the Elem Infobox in Oxygen for example. In the top block, all I recognize is the 15.9994 as the atomic weight. All the rest of that block is Greek to me. In the next lower box, all those little squares arranged in the manner of the Periodic Table of Elements ... I don't understand what the color pattern of those squares is meant to convey. But I am sure that Volk would know ... and perhaps Paul Wormer as well. Those Elem Infoboxes were all developed by David Yamakuchi (I believe) and he has not been active for some time. The info in those top two boxes are not usually needed in my field of expertise (Chemical engineering) but I am sure that they are important to chemists. For all I know, those two upper blocks in the Elem Infobox may be okay as they are. But the next block on "Properties" definitely needs to be expanded. As for the lower boxes on "Uses" and "Hazards", they need to be deleted in my opinion because uses and hazards should be covered in the main article text.

I apologize for not being more helpful about the element Infoboxes. Milton Beychok 18:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was not talking about the infoboxes (I think the black square indicates the position of oxygen), but of the table on the Properties subpage. The data come from subpages (each containing just one value). And such subpages exist for water where they were used before you replaced the template by your table. So, at least, for water these subpages are useless. (I do not intend to edit these property tables. I only want to help with developing an easy to use template.) Peter Schmitt 23:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I misunderstood you. Can you use the "What links here" in the left-hand navigation column of the subpage to see what articles are using the value in the subpage? That might give you some indication as to whether or not to delete them. Milton Beychok 02:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Seeking permission to impersonate you in order to get a screen shot of a bug reporting page for an unprivileged user

Milt.

I am working on the How to report a bug in Bugzilla explanatory page (to see where I am at the moment, go here). I have captured a screen shot of what the bug reporting page looks like, but I suspect, since I am an administrator, I see more fields than a normal user. I would like to write the article from the perspective of an unprivileged user. As a Bugzilla administrator, I can impersonate other users, although they will receive an email message informing them that I am doing so. What I would like to do is impersonate you for the sole purpose of getting a bug report screen shot for an unprivileged user. Will you give me permission to do that? Dan Nessett 20:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You have my permission. Since I am a now a registered user of Bugzilla, am I an "unprivileged" user? Milton Beychok 21:04, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

What I mean by an "unprivileged" user is one without administrator access. Only Greg and I have that level of privilege. We use these privileges to manage the flow of bug reports and enhancement requests, manage the configuration of Bugzilla, and so forth. Generally, there are not very many users with administrator access. As a registered user you can create tickets for bug reports and enhancement requests, receive email relating to those tickets you are interested in (even if you were not the reporting user), leave comments on those tickets addressing issues you are interested in, etc. So, don't think "unprivileged" means you are prohibited from participating in the issue tracking activity. Dan Nessett 21:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Milt. I have captured the screen shot and am no longer impersonating you on Bugzilla. Dan Nessett 21:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Second law

Milt, I worked hard on the 2nd law, and I'm finished for the time being. Could you do me a favor and read it? When you see any strange English, you don't have to tell me, you can adapt it straightaway. A "diff" will tell me what you have done. When you see something scientifically wrong, it is better that we discuss it first. Thank you. --Paul Wormer 16:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Properties

Milt, it has taken longer, but now the template seems to work as intended.

If you think that it can be useful for chemistry, then tell me how to name it (ChemList, ChemProp, ...), and check the parameter -- should some more be included, some be left out? Should there names be changed?

Thank you. Peter Schmitt 00:48, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Peter, these are my comments based on the your latest revision of Template:PropList/doc:

• I assume that you intend to have two separate templates.
• I would suggest naming the template for compounds (e.g., water, sodium chloride, sulfuric acid, etc.) as "ChemPropList"
• I would suggest naming the template for elements (oxygen, chlorine, sulfur, zinc, etc) as "ElemPropList".
• I am quite happy with the properties in the "ChemPropList" as it now is
• I would suggest that for the properties in the "ElemPropList", you should make a real effort to get opinions from David Volk and Paul Wormer.

Good work, Milton Beychok 03:23, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

I have left David and Paul a message.

No, my idea was to have one template with two (or more) versions selected by an option. (This can be changed, but I think that it makes it easier to keep a uniform appearance.)

Peter Schmitt 13:13, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I've joined CZ - Henry P.

Hi Milt,  :-)

I've joined Citizendium as an author. Thanks for your help in recommending me. I'm sorry I haven't joined sooner. I tried to join many months ago, but apparently some technical problem arose and I was not confirmed as having joined Citizendium at that time. I've had problems with my internet connection from time to time and have also been pre-occupied with various other things in my life. This time I apparently signed up correctly. I think I'll check around here and see who the experts in chemistry and chemical engineering are in Citizendium. Glad to see you're still doing OK. Henry A. Padleckas 19:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Image:Petrochem Feedstocks.png

Milt, nice work on all "your" chem eng articles including the Petrochemicals article and the included pictures. I would like to suggest a minor change to Image:Petrochem Feedstocks.png. I suggest "Budiene" (steam cracker output in blue) be changed to "Butadiene". Henry A. Padleckas 19:39, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Henry ... and welcome to Citizendium. If you need any help, please let me know. When you are ready to pitch in here, we could sure use the "Vapor-liquid equilibrium" and "Chemical plant" articles that you wrote for Wikipedia. I would be happy to help you get them into the right form for Citizendium. I will fix that mis-spelling of butadiene sometime today. Once again, welcome!!! Milton Beychok 21:40, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Nuclear power plant

Milt,

Are you going to write an article on Nuclear power plant ? I'm not requesting you to, I'm just asking if you do plan to write one, so we can coordinate any efforts between us so we don't unknowingly duplicate efforts. If you're not writing such an article, I may start work on one some time in a sandbox of mine or possibly offline. Henry A. Padleckas 06:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Henry, I am currently writing a new article on steam generators of all types. It includes sections on the steam generators used in:

• Power plants using fuel combustion
• Nuclear power plants
• Heat recovery steam generators or HRSGs (used in gas turbine combined cycles )
• Solar power plants

Those sections focus primarily on the steam generators without getting into details about nuclear power plants, combined cycle power plants or solar power plants. I am about 60 percent along with the article and plan to finish it this week. You can take a look at the article in progress at User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox to see what I have written about nuclear power plants. I do not plan to write separate articles on nuclear power plants or solar power plants or on gas turbine combined cycle plants.

So, I do not plan to write an article on nuclear power plants. I don't have enough know-how to do so. Such an article would be quite useful, so go ahead and write one if you wish. I also think that we sorely need articles on Vapor-liquid equlibrium, Chemical plants and Heat exchangers.

P.S.: If you want to offer comments about what I have already written on steam generators, please do so at User talk:Milton Beychok/Sandbox rather than directly editing my sandbox article at this time. Regards, Milton Beychok 06:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. Chemical plant is in my sandbox, not far from completion. Vapor-liquid equlibrium is likely to be next, but that will take me longer to fix up. After that, .... I think I'll start work on Nuclear power plant some time, probably in a sandbox because it would take me a while to write that one. In the meantime, I have edits on Steam generator in mind, but I will wait until you transfer to the main [article] space. I wrote much of the WP articles on Shell and tube heat exchanger, Valve, and Motor oil which I would eventually like to [partly] transfer over to CZ. Henry A. Padleckas 13:58, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Can't find speedy delete templates

Hi, Milt, I can't find any templates for the four remaining items at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests even by clicking on the redirects and discussion pages etc. They're probably *somewhere*, but until I can find them I won't delete these items. Hayford Peirce 18:37, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

They are not marked for deletion. They are on the list because they contain {{r|Boiler}} which transcluded the definition from the (now deleted) Boiler/Definition. This should disappear. Obviously, the to-delete list has not yet been updated.

Hayford, you will remember that this was discussed some time in summer. To prevent this, the speedydelete template has to be put between noinclude tags, or a new template using "subst:fast del" has to be used (see for details)

Peter Schmitt 22:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

"Ah, I see," said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw. Or "It was clear as mud, but it covered the ground." Geez, what we poor hard-working cops go through! What next, a plague of locusts? Hayford Peirce 22:21, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

You say, "they should disappear" -- when? When someone does something to make them disappear? When the server or something does something in its own mysterious way? They're still there this morning. Hayford Peirce 16:27, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

I have removed them from the list by null edits. I would have expected that the system sooner or later discovers it without this sort of help ... Maybe I was wrong. Peter Schmitt 00:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, in any case, thanks! It makes a poor old Kop's life easier! Hayford Peirce 00:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

"moving" Chemical plant to article main space

I wrote you a private e-mail on this, but I will repeat most of this here for any additional comments from any other Citizendium members.

I was thinking of writing another paragraph into "Chemical plant", but now I think that can wait until later. Do you think I should "move" my sandbox containing "Chemical plant" into the main space, effectively renaming the page, or to copy the contents and paste it into a new blank article main space. "Moving" the article from my sandbox would retain the history of how I changed it from a Wikipedia (WP) article to a CZ article. My understanding is that my sandbox after the move would essentially become a new Redirect. If I were to copy and paste both the article and its Talk page to their permanent new pages, the history of how I converted the WP article to the CZ article would be absent, but would stay in my sandbox. The History record of one of your very minor edits would be lost, but it is insignificant. As far as I'm concerned, the history of how I compiled the "Chemical plant" article is insignificant to me, and I would rather have that history lost and the new history start when the article came to the main space. A summary listing of differences between the WP article and the new CZ would still be present in the article's Talk page. However, approving or disapproving editors may want to see a history of how it was converted from a WP to a CZ article. Do you have a suggestion ?

I will work on the subpages afterwards. Henry A. Padleckas 01:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)