Citizendium - a community developing a quality, comprehensive compendium of knowledge, online and free.
Click here to join and contribute
CZ thanks our previous donors. Donate here. Treasurer's Financial Report

User talk:Milton Beychok/Archive 5

From Citizendium
Jump to: navigation, search

I just archived the last batch of postings

That is why this page looks rather empty at this moment. Milton Beychok 07:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideal gas law

First, I hope you liked your birthday presents!

Second, you might be amused at how convenient Ideal Gas Law has been at the moment. It's something that I hadn't used recently enough to remember that I knew it. I have a friend who has asked me to rig a carbon dioxide generator for a closed hydroponic greenhouse, and, for weird logistical reasons, can't use either a carbon dioxide cylinder or a propane-driven generator. So, I'm looking at a possible Rube Goldberg contraption derived from a hot chocolate dispenser, which meters calcium carbonate powder into acid. I can do the stoichiometry to know how many moles I get, but now I have to figure out how to convert moles generated into ppm in a specific volume at constant temperature. People are looking at me strangely as I walk around muttering pV = nRT. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Milton, maybe you should move the approval date to later to give people a chance to read it. Feel free to change anything you want; after all I did that too. --Paul Wormer 17:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Paul, you are right. I will add a week to the date. Milton Beychok 17:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Milton do you know why Daniel is dragging his feet?--Paul Wormer 08:11, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Actually, if you look at the History pages for each of the subpages (Main Article, Related Links and Bibliography), he has added most, if not all, that he said was needed ... and I have added an External Links subpage which he also said was needed. I am waiting until tomorrow (Jan. 14) and then I will change my Approval Nomination version of the article to the latest version of the article ... and ask both you and Daniel to add your names to mine as nominators on the Metadata page. I think he will respond at that time. Milton Beychok 08:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
The topic is just too far off my current research focus to justify working on it while I'm in the lab. So I will need another weekend to finish this off. --Daniel Mietchen 09:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Daniel. Do you want me wait until after next weekend with updating the Approval nomination of Ideal gas law? I am quite willing to do so, if that is what you want. Milton Beychok 09:43, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I have already extended the deadline until Jan 26. --Daniel Mietchen 09:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Daniel. It is now 2:00 AM in California and I must get to bed. Good night. Milton Beychok 09:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Raising inline TeX

Milton, I saw that you raised/lowered LaTeX, but see my comment here:,2470.0.html --Paul Wormer 08:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Couple of things---user, disambiguation (what a combination)

Yes, I saw the new user and put a note on his page. I hope I don't scare off, both from too much information about CZ and also a question I asked him: it's torn down now, but there used to be an Army Intelligence facility that looked exactly, to me, like the warehouse where the bureaucrats stored the Found Ark at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. Both of us worked there at one time or another. Whether that resemblance occurred to anyone else has always been a question in my mind.

Your points about conflicting definition in terms of art, with air dispersion versus other disciplines, is an excellent one. If there ever is a general CZ science and engineering FAQ, it quite likely should contain "disambiguate early and often". You thought about this issue early. Richard Pinch, a prolific new contributor, has been putting in quite a few articles in mathematics, and only after I'd see them go up might I realize that even if there was no entry, the term was used differently in computer science. Eventually, though, he defined "division" in mathematical terms, and I had already put in an entry, which I had disambiguated after a little thought, about "division (military)". Thinking further about it, I realize that while I defined "brigade" in military terms, it is also a term in French restaurant organization.

It would be at the level of MediaWiki code, I suppose, but it would be good if there were a software check if a new article title might conflict with another usage of the word, and would check for any use of "division", either with or without parenthesized disambiguation.

Anyway, it strikes me as wise to create disambiguation entries early for the terms you suggested had problems at The Other Place. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:47, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

NMR approval

Hi Milt, please see this. Thanks, D. Matt Innis 02:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I just picked up your name for the list of Chemistry editors - your name was first on the list! I did not find specific instructions for sending an article for approval, so I just tried editing the metadata page. I thought putting someones name on the ToApproval list would send the page to the person for approval. I removed your name for the template as requested.Sekhar Talluri 04:55, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Ideal gas law

Got it! Thanks for the good work.. and the reminder D. Matt Innis 00:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Your single opinion.....

.... is a pretty good one. I'll code it into the subpages template so that the workgroups are visible at the top of the page. Is that a good compromise? Chris Day 05:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I made a start. Let me know what types of changes would make it more useful. We can link to practically anything you want in any format you wish. Chris Day 05:48, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Mucho thanks, Chris. The top of the page is fine and so is the smaller size font. I don't want to be picky, but I would prefer them to be linked to "All articles" rather than "Approved articles". And now, I've got to get to bed. All those balls at the Inauguration last night wore me out! Milton Beychok 06:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


Milton, while searching for info about how to create a sandbox I saw that you had set them up for lots of new users. Could you please tell me how I can set one up for myself? Or can only constables do that? Thanks. Bruce M.Tindall 22:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I just created a sandbox for you. Enjoy! Milton Beychok 23:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Bruce M.Tindall 00:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Stumbled on these...

(CC) Photo: Sebastiano Pitruzzello
Refinery at Priolo Gargallo, Sicily.
(CC) Photo: Sebastiano Pitruzzello
Refinery at Priolo Gargallo, Sicily.

..are they useful to you? Chris Day 04:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Chris, I'm fairly sure that I can find a use for them. Milton Beychok 05:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


I emailed Eric, and, perhaps this afternoon, will have time to read some of the TTC-56 material he cited and jog him with some ideas. In addition, I remembered I have another colleague who is an inactive Citizen, but is an Army electronics type; I'll drop him an email as well. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Approval of AN-

Howard, Eric posted that paragraph we've been waiting for on the AN-1 Talk page. Could you please work that into the article somehow? I have extended the Approval date by one day to Jan. 28 and I will change the version to be approved just as soon as you have worked his material into the article. Thanks, Milton Beychok 09:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

(to be repeated on both our user pages) Think of this, as well, as a mini-meeting of the active editors of the engineering workgroup.
Milt, as soon as I have ingested a bit more coffee, I shall do so. Not complaining; it wasn't quite what I was expecting. I assumed he was going to explain a bit about it as a terminology example in the specific article context. (i.e., in "TTC-56 (V)1", the first means that it's movable from fixed site to fixed site while the second T means..."). Incorrectly anticipating, I wrote a developing article pn the AN/TTC-56, and also some of the system engineering concepts that don't have AN- designations, such as the Warfighter Information Network–Tactical, into which it fits. I'm going to use his language as more of a case study in AN-, but as a different sort of case study that also explains AN- systems can be components in systems-of-systems.
As an aside here, I'm talking about the general Engineering subspecialty of Systems Engineering, of a military flavor. That raises a question to you: to what extent do modern chemical engineers work with people called systems engineers, who look especially at the control systems, but also, say, the logistical interfaces between the fixed manufacturing plant and transportation engineering? In some respects, I think of systems engineering as something common to all engineering disciplines, but, especially in military context, it is the field of ensuring compatibility among subsystems belonging to different engineering disciplines. While, for example, a mining engineer might look at an oil well, a transportation/civil/mechanical engineer at the means of getting the crude to the refiner, and a chemical engineer at refining it, a system engineer might be looking at the handoffs and interface standards. Many large military development projects are run by systems engineering centers, either government or context. I think there's an article here and may start a stub today, along with some military aspects including "transformation", the conscious movement between generations of interconnected systems.
As yet another aside, as I get more into some of the military systems engineering, I'm going to explore something that might yet be a means of getting support for nonspecialist engineering editors. I do a number of things as what might be called an engineering journalist, so while I might be talking to the "public affairs" arm of a manufacturer or integrator, those people are accustomed to inquiries from the trade press, not general news media, and can be willing to do fact-checking. In many cases, they will do an email response, or sometimes one by phone, but, if for no other reason than to avoid the appearance they are manipulating the article, they don't want that published. Now, for what I'm going to suggest, something of an honor system is involved, which is also one of the reasons I'm hesitant to have instant editors that start ruling without much experience with the CZ process. Hypothetically, if I asked for approval on some military systems engineering, and forwarded either an email from the technical public affairs people, or wrote an email documenting the telephone call and giving point of contact, would that give you more confidence? Wearing my engineering journalist hat, I would consider it completely normal for my publishing-type editor to make random quality calls just to such a point of contact as I mention; I'm literally now hoping to start on a project where I will do a series of specialized computer articles for a broader yet specialized electronics trade magazine, and I'd certainly expect the editor might verify some of my interviews. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Air pollution dispersion terminology due for approval today

Got it! Congratualtions and keep them coming! D. Matt Innis 18:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

The draft page links (at the top) should be functional now. Chris Day 03:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The metadata.... at Template:U.S._Department_of_Commerce/Metadata. Is that the page you get as blank? Chris Day 22:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to be okay now. Before, when I clicked on Talk and then clicked on the Metadata link, I got a blank page with an instruction box telling me to recreate the template. Maybe that happened to me while you were still cleaning up the mess I made. Anyhow, Thanks once more, Milton Beychok 22:23, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


Just yesterday I discovered this article that lays out the simple 3,278-step procedure for moving an article, its subpages, all their subordinate Talk pages, and the metadata template: .

Seems as if there's got to be a better way, but apparently there isn't.

What I did with Rodgers & Hamm. was somewhat simpler but I was surprised that it worked. There was an old (pre-subpages-days) article called "List of R&H musicals"; I simply moved it to "R&H/Catalogs/Musicals" and, amazingly, a main article was turned into a subpage of a different main article. Bruce M.Tindall 01:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I had also read that 3,278 step procedure. Problem is that it was last revised in April, 2008 and there has been a Mediawiki software update since then ... and I don't think the procedure in that article will work now. But maybe I'll give it a try. Thanks for your response. Milton Beychok 01:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Milt, see this discussion on my talk page archive. From what I understand - Click on the move tab of the article after putting in the new name and perhaps a reason, notice that below the save tab there is a checkbox to allow you to move all related subpages (check that), click save and then go to the metadata page and rename it (this is different than the old rules). I won't guarantee that it won't blow up, but I will help you fix it if it does! If it works, let's update those instructions. D. Matt Innis 01:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the pointer. This indeed sounds much easier. It also may explain why my most recent cluster-move attempt resulted in a train wreck that Constable Peirce kindly cleaned up. Bruce M.Tindall 01:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Matt: The procedure you proposed blows up big time! Once I moved the main article and subpages, then I could no longer find/access the Metadata template to revise it and move it.
Fortunately, in anticipation of that happening, I had written down the url of the Metadata template and the url of the Talk page ... so I was able to access them and to finish the move okay. But that is a tortuous way of doing it. We really need a new, simpler method. Chris is working on it and maybe he will succeed soon. Milton Beychok 06:03, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the redirect. Sorry for the blow up, but Chris will get it... so you think that moving the metadata first wont work? D. Matt Innis 06:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
I'll try that next. Milton Beychok 06:31, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

See my notes on Matt's talk page. It's almost there. Chris Day 08:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


Milt, I'll write the definition later today. With regard to nabla (aka del): IE7, Google chrome, and Firefox show it perfectly. Maybe it is time for you to upgrade? Hayford is quite enthusiastic about Google chrome, I use mainly Firefox, but have these other two installed as well. You could even go straight to: IE8

Incidentally, this nabla reminds me of an experience I had at WP. I once wrote "nabla" (an Assyrian harp, term was introduced by the very Anglo Saxon Peter Tait) and I got a very antisemitic reaction to the extent that Jews want to turn everything into something Jewish, even math symbols. One should write "del" according to this person.

The spherical harmonic pictures I made by Matlab (a numerical, commercial, program package; I used to teach Matlab to chemistry sophomores).--Paul Wormer 07:02, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I just bought a new computer and specifically had them install IE6 in it, because I like it much better than IE7 or IE8. Why? I guess at my age, I just resist change. IE6 is like an old pair of shoes to me ... comfortable. I guess I will just have to get along without nabla. Is there any way to just use a LaTex nabla instead of the HTML version?
Your above comment about an antisemetic reaction reminds me. In reading the article Hermann Goering, you mention his saying something about "call me Meyer (a common German name) if bombs fall on the Ruhr or Berlin". Personally, I am convinced that he chose "Meyer" not because it was a common German name, but rather because it was a common Jewish name and in effect, he was saying "call me a verdammten Juden if ...". Milton Beychok 08:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Candidate for deletion?

GF_Engineering_Material looks like it might be one that got lost. Chris Day 07:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Chris, that is the article that Gordon Feric was working on in a sandbox of his. I tried to explain to him how to make it look presentable and how to improve the drawings in it and I provided an example of what he ought to do Energy conversion. Then he got quite upset by my attempts to tell him what I thought he needed to do ... and he eventually left CZ. I have no intention of ever tackling the huge job of improving all of his material. So I would recommend (with my Editor hat on) that GF_Engineering_Material and Energy conversion both be deleted. Milton Beychok 07:42, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


Yes, it can be done. See the disambiguations at Dabdef. All of them should have an article at the disambiguated term with a header on the article pointing to the disambiguation page. Chris Day 09:04, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I was looking at the Concentration_(disambiguation) page and i now realise that if you go ahead with the Concentration article it will not work with the R template. This is a bug and I need to write a workaround so that such examples will function normally on the related articles subpages. Chris Day 19:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Also it might be an idea to set up a standard for disambiguation. We had a few discussions a while back but I'm not sure any formal standard was adopted. i notice that there are two different header templates in use at the moment and different disambiguation pages are using different templates too. Chris Day 19:04, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I have worked up a revision of the existing Concentration (disambiguation) page (in my Sandbox2) and I have found that the Concentration article does not work when using the R template. How long might it be before you have a work-around?
Or perhaps I just won't use the R template. When I looked at many other DAB pages, some use the R template and some don't ... and there are a good many different ways in which the DAB pages have been formatted. Trying to come up with a standard format might be like trying make "one size fit all". Milton Beychok 19:36, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
From what you have seen, do you think one size fits all might be problematic? The R tempalte fix should be easy but need a block of time to think about it. Chris Day 20:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I have looked at about 8 different DAB pages ... and I do think it would be very difficult to come up with a standard format. Perhaps, we need 3 standards: one using the R template, one that does not use the R template at all, and one that has one section for R templates and one section that does not use R templates. Actually, I think that last option (with two different sections) would be best.
I have the Concentration article ready to upload (in my Sandbox1), so I think I will revise the existing DAB page without using the R template. Then after you have had time to think and to fix the R template, we could always revise the DAB page. Does that sound okay? Milton Beychok 23:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Sounds great. Chris Day 00:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Nabla again

Milton, I changed the heading of a subsection in Green's function, it looks perfect except for the table of contents. In ordinary LaTeX you would use \protect to make the title transferable, but the Wiki LaTeX doesn't accept \protect.--Paul Wormer 09:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Paul, you need not mess up the table of contents just to accomodate me. Another alternative is to have the header read "Proof of Green function of Nabla2". But again you need not make a change just to accomodate me. Milton Beychok 09:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Layout Green function

Milton you suggested three changes, I applied two .--Paul Wormer 17:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


Wouldn't it be easier to just turn on the feature to allow access of commons images from this wiki? It is 4 lines in the LocalSettings.php file. Then all of the credits are still with the original image. The fuctionality works very nicely. A user links to an image just using File:Test.png. When a reader clicks on the image, the info, copied from commons, is displayed. In this display is a link to the original image. Again, to add this functionality requires access to the LocalSettings.php file. Melissa Newman 19:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you will find us arguing with you on this. But one problem here is there are few programmers to make such changes. You could e-mail to request the change. Or possibly Larry could do it? Chris Day 19:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with your proposal, it would be very much easier. As Chris has said, you should ask Larry Sanger (the Wiki owner) to implement it. Milton Beychok 20:31, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
The image isn't so much copied from Wikimedia Commons as actually served from Commons--right? If I understand the suggestion properly, there are two problems here. First, it makes us, to my taste, unacceptably dependent on the Wikimedia Foundation for content that is essential to many articles. I don't want to be in that position. I want CZ to retain its independence. Second, it makes it quite easy for anybody to link to any image on Wikimedia Commons. Our standards are higher than theirs; for example, I believe we are more careful about "fair use" than they are. Moreover, we have confirmed the identity of the creators of our images, as comports with the CZ "real names" ethic.
Am I missing something? --Larry Sanger 01:03, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Larry, if you look at this as becoming dependent on the Wikimedia Foundation, then I suppose you have a point. However, if you look at Commons as a resource that could be easily accessed, it would certainly make life easier for a great many of our authors seeking to improve CZ article by including photos, diagrams, graphs and other images.
With all due respect, almost all of CZ's most productive authors, editors and perhaps Constables as well have come to CZ from Wikipedia ... so in effect CZ has been and still is "dependent" upon Wikipedia as a resource for productive participants. Why not accept Commons as just another resource? Having said that, if you decide against using Melissa's idea, it will not be a "game breaker" for me. I will just regret that we passed up an opportunity to make it easier to access good photos and images. Milton Beychok 02:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

from my talk page

Hi Milt, the only thing that a constable watches for is whether the editors involved are editors in the workgroups in the metadata template. The choice as to which articles belong on the page is left to the editorial process as the workgroups themselves should be able to better determine if their group has anything to address in the article in question. If the answer to this question is not obvious, then consider asking the EIC and I am sure he will let you know. Therefore, currently, you are not able to act toward approving the article. However, should it be decided to add any of your workgroups to the metadata page, a constable would consider you an eligable editor. And since you have not made any edits to the article, you could perform a single editor approval.

I realize that there is a lot of gray area here, but I also know that you are perfectly capable of helping to make those decisions in the best interest of Citizendium. D. Matt Innis 20:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


Are you hiding those from me till the last moment :-) D. Matt Innis 00:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


I just noticed you posted a message to Larry on the talk page of the actual article about him, not on his user talk page. Thought I'd point that out so it doesn't get lost. :) --Todd Coles 16:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Todd. I must have been half asleep. Pretty dumb of me, eh? Milton Beychok 17:59, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
No worries, happens to the best of us. --Todd Coles 21:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

James Clerk Maxwell

I'm done with it. Please take a look. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 10:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Ed Council?

Does no good deed go unpunished? Russell D. Jones 14:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

You will enjoy it, won't you? :>) Milton Beychok 16:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


Milton, I took your text and made this out of it. Could you please have a look at it? After we have agreed on a text, we can ask Larry to read it and see if it resolves his objections. --Paul Wormer 22:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Milton, I feel that the intro to energy is converging. Maybe Larry will find the time to have a quick look at it and examine whether it now meets his "readability by the lay person" criterion. Later today or tomorrow I will ask him. --Paul Wormer 20:13, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


Thank you for the welcome and initial support, i'm also an wikipedian, so in the next days i must read the internal doc and organize a page to be my memorandum. I've notice that environment as a lack in some main environmental topics, i might start using my sandbox to water pollution articles. Have fun, sharing acknowledges. André Barbosa 21:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Commas in numbers

Milton, I quote NIST (formerly NBS):

10.5.3 Grouping digits 

Because the comma is widely used as the decimal marker outside the United States, it should not be used to separate digits 
into groups of three. Instead, digits should be separated into groups of three, counting from the decimal marker towards the
left and right, by the use of a thin, fixed space. However, this practice is not usually followed for numbers having only 
four digits on either side of the decimal marker except when uniformity in a table is desired. 

 76 483 522  but not:  76,483,522  
 43 279.168 29  but not:  43,279.168 29  
 8012 or 8 012  but not:  8,012  
 0.491 722 3  is highly preferred to:    0.4917223  
 0.5947 or 0.594 7  but not:  0.59 47  
 8012.5947 or 8 012.594 7    but not:  8 012.5947 or 8012.594 7  

Note: The practice of using a space to group digits is not usually followed in certain specialized applications, 
such as engineering drawings and financial statements. 

--Paul Wormer 15:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Paul, I know it is a NIST recommendation. But every newspaper, magazine or book that I read uses commas. Even my calculator automatically uses commas. I guess that we Americans are just a creatures of habit. If you want to change it back, then do so. Milton Beychok 18:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
So you knew. Evidently I have a preference for spaces (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with html codes), but I'm not dogmatic about it, as long as there is more than one comma in the number. I find a six digit number with one comma very confusing.--Paul Wormer 19:46, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Water properties

I set up a properties subpage using a set of templates made and established by David Yamakuchi for this purpose. I'm not sure if this is the best approach, one subpage for each property, but it is what we currently have as a "standard". This proceedure definitely needs more documentation.

Personally, i would like to see one "properties template" that houses all the properties; one template for each element and compound. Much easier than having them all over the shop on different subpages, IMO. Chris Day 22:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Chris, I agree 200 percent with you. What is needed is one Properties infobox on the main article page with the most important properties. Then we could have a subpage entitled "More properties" for those cases where other properties are deemed to be needed.
The approved article Phosphorus has in infobox on the main article page and also has a subpage entitled "Properties", so the precedent has been set, has it not?
Take a look at User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox2 to see the table I used as a mockup of a template for the properties of water. I used font sized at 85% of the normal size so as to conserve space. When the table is converted into a template, the template should be such that users can easily make changes if needed in any of the property names or the property values. Also text should be able to wrap to the left of the template.
Meanwhile, I might just put my table into the Water article until a template is made. Milton Beychok 22:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
From what I can see of the {{props}} template in the Properties subpage of Water, there is no easy way to make changes or add other properties. As for the note "Please see template {{Props}} for instructions on adding new properties of Water to this table.", I did go and see the template and I could not find any instructions on how to add new properties or how to revise the existing properties. One should be able to actually make such changes or additions or deletions right in the edit page of the Properties subpage without having to go somewhere else to find out how. I like my table approach much better ... the table coding is on the edit page and users can make corrections or additions very easily. Milton Beychok 23:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

In your honour?

Miltonia :) Chris Day 16:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Milt, I believe, first flowered well after 1837. Nothing wrong with putting a flower on his userpage, though. Do you get day lilies on yours, Chris? Howard C. Berkowitz 17:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Daisies. Chris Day 17:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
But Miltonia is a female name, isn't it? And I am not ... I just checked. Milton Beychok 20:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Close enough for us. :) Chris Day 20:26, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Everyone is a stand-up comic! Bye, I've got a tennis match to watch on TV. Milton Beychok 20:33, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
What a racket. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)