User talk:Hayford Peirce

Hayford Peirce

Current talk page

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Threading

Moving this discussion from ID talk page. Do you remember if there was already a discussion in the forum. If so I think I missed it and i don't want to rehash old news. Chris Day 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there was one several months ago, in which I *thought* some sort of consensus was arrived at. Milton, I believe, was writing the text for this blue Etiquette box that we see at the top of the screen, and we were discussing what exactly to put into it. I thought that it was *you* who was doing the actual writing of the template and also, maybe, participating in the discussion. But, I guess, you were just putting in what Milton asked you to. Having gone through that one discussion, this is why I get annoyed, sometimes, when people seem to arbitrarily decide not to play by the rules/guidelines/suggestions/whatever that were talked about. (I think that as a result of the discussion, someone *also* went in the CZ:HowToDo things and rewrote it to say that the use of indents in threading *was* the way to do it, not merely a "suggestion".) Hayford Peirce 17:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)"

May I point out, Hayford, that threading refers specifically to the system which you are deprecating? :-p

Also, re. "people seem to arbitrarily decide not to play by the rules" - I've never actually come across such rules, and until you mentioned them the other day I had no idea that discussions were supposed to be linear.

Anyhow, I am very much in favour of a new discussion or a vote. I believe the form software allows them to be set up very easily.

Caesar Schinas 17:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm all for a new discussion, just as long as it gives a definitive, permanent answer. I don't care one way or another, except I do have my own personal opinion, of course. Lemme look for where what I call "the rules" spell it out -- I know it's there somewhere. (I myself didn't just arbitrarily decide one day that we were going to use colons for indents come hell or high water!) Hayford Peirce 17:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Here, Caesar, take a look at this: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ:How_to_use_talk_pages&action=edit&section=4 There's probably some wriggle room in there, but maybe not. The intent seems clear, however. I know that *you* weren't here at the time of the discussion (which apparently was back in January), but some of the other people who disagree with the indentation system *were* here and, I think, didn't raise their voices very strongly in opposition. (In their defense, I *will* say that we were struggling with two different issues at the same time. We had just gone through some problems with, shall I say, a "difficult" contributor, who insisted first on putting all new comments at the top of the page, and using/or not using the indent or anything-other system except in his own totally arbitrary manner. It was in a reaction to him that we rewrote the rules.) Hayford Peirce 17:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I have not read your link yet, but here's the interesting thing. I did write the text in the blue box, but my interpretation of that text seems to be different to your own. Obviously this is more subjective than we had realised. This makes me suspect I missed the discussion since I think I would have brought this up at the time, if I had noticed it. Anyway, I'll now go back and read the original discussion. Chris Day 17:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Great! And if, after you find it, you would put a link to it here, I would be very grateful! Hayford Peirce 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

So I did participate on the talk page but not on the CZ page. As far as i can tell, the scenario where two people reply to the same person is not discussed. OK it is. I guess I disagree with that example. I should read the talk page more carefully to see what the rationale was. For your information, I would have thought the example in that link should look like the following since both lisa and george are replying to Bob. In the current example it looks like George is replying to Lisa. Chris Day 18:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Example:

How's the soup? --[[Bob]] :It's great!! --[[Lisa]] :Not too bad.. --[[George]] ::I made it myself! --[[Bob]] I think the soup discussion should be moved to [[Talk:Soup]].. --[[Lisa]] :I tend to disagree. --[[George]]

The above will produce this:

How's the soup? --Bob It's great!! --Lisa Not too bad.. --George I made it myself! --Bob I think the soup discussion should be moved to Talk:Soup.. --Lisa I tend to disagree. --George

Yes, I can see that. Geez, what a can of worms! Hayford Peirce 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It depends what is valued most. An effort to maintain the chronology of replies by indenting or an effort to match the replies in the correct context. Obviously this is only an issue when multiple people are involved in a discussion. I prefer the example where the two replies are on the same level since it is then obvious that Lisa and George are both replying to Bob. In our current example:

How's the soup? --Bob It's great!! --Lisa Not too bad.. --George I made it myself! --Bob I think the soup discussion should be moved to Talk:Soup.. --Lisa I tend to disagree. --George

I had to read for context to determine who George was addressing. The chronology, for me, is less of an issue since you can untie complex pages by stepping through the edit history or looking at the time stamp. For me, reading for context is more time consuming on a busy talk page. Obviously neither solution is near perfect. Chris Day 18:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, the example seems pretty clear to me; it shows threading.

Bob asks how the soup is. Lisa and George people answer him, each indented one level. He then replies to George of them, indenting a further one level.

Below, a separate discussion is taking place. Lisa suggest moving the soup discussion, and George replies - indenting one level - to say that he disagrees.

The only complaint I have about the example is that the spacing is a little weird. I think we should allways leave a blanbk line between one comment and the next, with the possible exception of if they are both by the same person.

Caesar Schinas 06:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

"Lisa and George people answer him, each indented one level." The problem is that our current example does not do this. I agree about the blank line. it makes it much easier to find the relevant text when in edit mode. Chris Day 17:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah yes; I see that now. I had thought the first example was a copy-paste from the instructions, because I just skimmed the posts above... never a good idea! Caesar Schinas 21:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's start a new one, to clear the air

Oh, I thought you meant you were going to find a Forums discussion. Am I misremembering and *all* of the discussion was on a talk page (or more than one talk page). If you will recall, because of Dr. Cohen, this was a contentious subject at the time. Hayford Peirce 18:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh I see, sorry for the confusion. Your original link went to an edit page for me. I actually don't remember any of this discussion, my mind must have been on other things, even though I participated. Chris Day 18:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It's confusing because I think we had *two* ongoing discussions, one (or more) in the talk pages, and another in the Forum. I think I can say without fear of contradictions, however, that any *new* discussion will probably bring up the same arguments. I think that what I *may* have said at the time, in one place or another, was that it didn't so much matter as to *which* system we chose, but that we should only have one, to prevent confusion and acrimony. Which, of course, has again arisen. Hayford Peirce 18:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Unifying concepts

It's...it's...(Monty Python) the Soup [threading] Nazi (extended Seinfeld). Howard C. Berkowitz 18:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Replace template in Approved article

Hayford, would you mind changing the following, at the beginning of Tux?
Currently

{{subpages}}
[[Image:Linux_Tux_Logo.png|thumb|150px|right|Tux the penguin, the Linux mascot, as he most commonly appears and as originally drawn by Larry Ewing. Also see [[Tux/Gallery|"A pictorial history of Tux".]]]]
__NOTOC__
{{dablink|This article is for Tux the [[Linux]] mascot. For other uses, see [[Tux (disambiguation)]].}}

Please change to

{{subpages}}
{{dambigbox|Tux the [[Linux]] mascot|Tux}}
__NOTOC__
[[Image:Linux_Tux_Logo.png|thumb|150px|right|Tux  the official Linux penguin. This image depicts him as most commonly appears and as originally drawn by Larry Ewing. Also see [[Tux/Gallery|"A pictorial history of Tux".]]]]

Thanks, Caesar Schinas 06:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Caesar Schinas 16:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Monster crisps

Yes, Pringles, how I used to love them, but a health scare forced me to give them up about a decade ago - nice article in the NYT. We have the odd situation wherein there are separate articles on the very similar chips/chipped potatoes and fries, but none on crisps/potato chips. That sent me back to the language articles, but I don't know that I could start a new one on such a scientific subject; I could essay an opening definition, perhaps, after dinner. Crisps are potato-based snacks found in English pubs, hmm... Ro Thorpe 18:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I gotta say that Pringles actually taste pretty good, particularly the sour cream-chives one, even though they're all frankenfood monsters grown in a vat.... As you say, I was surprised there was no article. There were a couple of Dereks here a couple of years ago who did some stuff, then vanished, I thought that one of them had done it.... Hayford Peirce 19:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Please weigh in on this with your comments

Hayford, please look at my comments here on the forums. Milton Beychok 04:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ketoconazole

Thanks for the approval work Hayford. David E. Volk 12:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Asneira

is a nice Portuguese word for what I did yesterday, moving a talk page instead of the page itself. And my efforts to undo the mistake have only made matters worse: Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch). But I'm sure Officer Peirce can help. Ro Thorpe 13:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to do? Should the article be at Bruch Violin Concerto Number 1 and the talk page at Talk:Bruch Violin Concerto Number 1, or the article at Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch) and the talk page at Talk:Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch), or what? Caesar Schinas 14:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The article should be at Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch) & the talk at Talk:Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch). Ro Thorpe 14:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Is that OK now? Caesar Schinas 15:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

ToApprove articles

Hayford, I've been in contact by email with Robert Badget about those articles. I'll let you know when everything is straightened out. --Joe (04:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)) Approvals Manager

Should be all straightened out now. Both are due for approval on July 1st. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 16:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I revised CZ:Article of the Week. Provided a place for anyone to simply make nominations. Then the program Administrators will do the transclusions.

I just revised the CZ:Article of the Week to provide a place (and instructions) for any CZ author or editor to simply add the names of new nominees.

I did NOT make any revisions to the transcluded versions of the articles that were added by Daniel Mietchen, Caesar Chinas or myself. All I did was provide a new section where anyone can simply add new nominees without having to transclude them.

I also reworded some section headers (and relocated one section) to make clear that Administrators of the "Article of the Week" initiative would do the transclusions.

I did that because I felt many authors and editors would be reluctant to make nominations if they had to do the transclusion themselves.

I asked Caesar Chinas to review my revision. After he does, I will also revise CZ:New Draft of the Week similarly. Milton Beychok 23:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

approvals

Thanks for taking care of folk saint. Did you notice that Randomized controlled trial and Evidence-based medicine are both scheduled to be re-approved today too? --Joe (Approvals Manager) 21:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I did those two first, for practice. They're actually easier to do than the real Approval. So you can remove them, or move them around, or renumber, or whatever needs to be done.

Huh. It must have taken longer for the cache to clear or something. When I left the message above, it looked like they were still awaiting a constable. They look fine now, though. I'll post a note on the approvals announcement page. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 22:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh. By the way, Roger found a typo in the lead paragraph of folk saint. Could you fix it on the approved version? Thanks much. --Joe Quick 21:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Hayford Peirce 21:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Constable issue

Hayford, you are a constable: Do you think this is a case where an approved article should be changed? See User_talk:Jitse_Niesen#Complex_number_page Peter Schmitt 22:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Dutch article

Hayford, can you please delete Kroese brands & behaviour because (1) it is an advertisement (2) it is straight from the Dutch WP (placed there by user:MarkBoukes and it is about to be deleted) and (3) it is in Dutch. Thank you. --Paul Wormer 11:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Wanted: comma

Hi, Hayford. Someone has edited the 'This is a draft article' thingy, and, well, it looks a tad dummm... But I don't know how to put in the comma, perhaps you can. Ro Thorpe 18:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Gimme a klew, myte, as to where this thingee might be! Hayford Peirce 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, at It Won't Get You Anywhere, for example. This is a draft article..., the panel that appears at the top of all draughty articles. It looks as if someone has rewritten it, because I don't think it used to be in bold, but neglected to put a comma after 'cited'. Ro Thorpe 18:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah. There's a long discussion going on about it in the Forum. I've rewritten it as follows: "This is a draft article, under development and not meant to be cited, but you can help improve it. These unapproved articles are subject to a disclaimer." If you agree that this is what it should be, lemme know and I'll tell the Forum chappies -- Lord knows what they're doing and where.... Hayford Peirce 18:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks! Discussion about it?!? Ro Thorpe 19:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

You gotta keep up wid de times, myte! http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2771.30/topicseen.html Hayford Peirce 19:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

It's fixed now. And thanks for the mention! Ro Thorpe 20:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Idly wonders if a "missing period" would bring up as much attention in BE. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, please look at first sentence of Chemical elements

Hayford, would you please look at first sentence of Chemical elements purely from the viewpoint of grammar and use of the English language? Then let us have your opinion here on the article's Talk page? Thanks, Milton Beychok 04:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to edit summary

"there's no article about the Pacific Theater?!"

Lol. Not if you haven't made it Hayford. Apparently there's nothing on D-Day either.Drew R. Smith 04:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)