Talk:Reuben sandwich

What happened to the photo I added?

I added an image of a Reuben sandwich which has disappeared. What happened to it?Mary Ash 16:56, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. When I edited, I thought I only removed the template metadata, which doesn't work in the article page; it needs to be in Template: Reuben sandwich/Metadata, where I completed the questions. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Don't understand the template stuff but I'll learn. I hopefully filled out the upload image correctly. I copied and pasted off the image page at Wikimedia. Thanks! Mary Ash 17:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the classic corned beef v. pastrami debate. Have you encountered the Montreal Beef Schism, in which "smoked meat" from Bens (not Ben's) replaces pastrami? Smoked beef seems to involve both Quebec and pan-Canadian honor, although I haven't been that impressed with it. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I bought "smoked meat" twice in Quebec City and thought it was to die for. Fantastic! I made a special trip back to, and then through, what seemed to me like the largest underground shopping mall in the world to find the shop where I'd had it the first time. Finally found it and had them make a couple of sandwiches to go.... Hayford Peirce 18:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Credit

The main paragraph is copied from Recipe Wiki. Is mentioning this and the link on External Pages enough to conform to CC-BY-SA?

Instead, I prefer a rewrite. Is this a "reliable source", anyway?

--Peter Schmitt 00:31, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I would think Recipe Wiki is a reliable source. What can you do with a recipe except post recipes. Here's a link to their licensing page, similar if not identical to Citizendium: [1] and their about page. They belong to the Wikia bunch. [2] Mary Ash 00:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I was referring to it as a source for the history of the sandwich, not the recipe. Though it may also concern the "original" recipe. There are even more than two versions told. --Peter Schmitt 01:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The word "reportedly" is the reporter's best friend. It covers all sins. I can add it back, if you like. Mary Ash 01:54, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

But is the covering of sins appropriate for an encyclopedia? Howard C. Berkowitz 14:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Apropos definition

A mixture of dairy and meat is Jewish? Howard C. Berkowitz 01:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This characterization is used by Evan Jones. He also describes a kosher variant. --Peter Schmitt 01:28, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Yesterday night I did not pay enough attention. Even the "kosher" version uses meat and cheese ... on the other hand, the "Jewish" tradition is mentioned elsewhere, too. But because of this problem it is better not mentioned in the definition (but probably in the article). --Peter Schmitt 09:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but which Evan Jones? There are several.

See Bibliography. --Peter Schmitt 15:25, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Now, many New York delis are not kosher. I enjoyed many a ham and cheese at Times Square delis, although that would be less likely on the Lower East Side. Nevertheless, something cannot be kosher if it combines meat and deli.

It's certainly fair to say Jewish-American or Eastern European Jewish cooking, but neither equates to the provisions of religious law, kashruth, which defines the requirements of being kosher. I hope "Kosher-style" would be considered sufficiently imprecise not to be used in an encyclopedia; the kashruth inspectors are precise and have no sense of humor. Even within kosher practice, there are gradations, such as the glatt kosher observed by ultra-Orthodox. Nevertheless, the mixing of meat and dairy products at a single meal, not even in a single dish, is forbidden. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

recipe

The recipe should be moved to a Recipe template tab. As per previous CZ convention with this. If no one else does it, I'll do it after breakfast (not a Reuben sandwich....) Hayford Peirce 14:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Arnold or Arthur?

Peter, my own source says Arthur: The New Food Lover's Companion, Sharon Tyler Herbst, Barron's, Hauppauge, New York, 1995, ISBN 0-8120-1520-7, page 478, but gives all of the other info that you have put in. Hayford Peirce 17:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

The name was a typo as I was typing a quick rewrite. The correct name was originally listed and returned to the article. I used Recipe Wiki as a source. Also, the Reuben can be made with corned beef, pastrami or ham. Either Russian (traditional) or Thousand Island dressing (more easily attainable) can be used. I've made many a reuben as I used to be a short order cook. I also know how to make Hot Roast Beef Sandwiches, Tuna Melts, and all kinds of short order things. Does that make me an expert? Probably not but I fixed a lot of sandwiches with a lot of happy customers. Mary Ash 17:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

When I was young, I thought tuna was native to cans. Now that I've seen them caught, I've always been impressed with the idea of the ray gun required to melt a whole tuna. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

You are too funny! I don't think I've ever eaten fresh tuna. Like you my tuna came in a can. Mary Ash 17:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Look at the page at the Library of Congress (in the Bibliography). I think it can be considered as an original source. (Besides, WP and all other pages I have seen have Arnold, too.) Changing the first name was easy, but there remains more to do to make the information correct. There seems to be much recycled information around that has to be sorted out. --Peter Schmitt 17:55, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I'll do some more research if you like. I don't think an article about a Reuben sandwich is going to be a make or break article. Food history is often murky and hard to track down. Mary Ash 17:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It was not a typo: The Recipe Wiki indeed says Arthur. And there is no doubt that such a recipe can be modified in many ways. But for an article about it the standard meaning and its history are the important issues. --Peter Schmitt 18:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I did not use Wikipedia as I thought that source was not allowed here. Below are some links I found doing a quick search. Read and enjoy!

• http://www.foodhistory.com/foodnotes/leftovers/reuben/01/
• http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=DGMgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CWYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3781,2528903&dq=reuben+sandwich+history&hl=en
• http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Sandwiches/ReubenSandwich.htm

"Reportedly originally named for its creator, Arthur Reuben (owner of New York's once-famous and now-defunct Reuben's delicatessen), this sandwich is made with generous layers of corned beef, Swiss cheese and sauerkraut on sourdough rye bread. Reuben is said to have created the original version (which was reportedly made with ham) for Annette Seelos, the leading lady in a Charlie Chaplin film being shot in 1914. Another version of this famous sandwich's origin is that an Omaha wholesale grocer (Reuben Kay) invented it during a poker game in 1955. It gained national prominence when one of his poker partner's employees entered the recipe in a national sandwich contest the following year and won. The Reuben sandwich can be served either cold or grilled." Quote from Recipe Wiki: [[3]] Mary Ash 18:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Typos are neither here nor there -- sources are the important thing. I've just looked at what Peter suggested (the LOC) and I am 100% convinced that Arnold is correct and that *all* the other (secondary) sources are wrong about the Arthur -- as Mary says, the sources of almost all food items are murky in the extreme. But at least let's postulate that for ONE of the stories, Arnold is correct. So I'll change it. Hayford Peirce 18:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) You will notice I changed the name to ARNOLD and reflected that in the article history. Mary Ash 18:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Righto, thanks! Hayford Peirce 18:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Poker puzzlement

So does one ante up with potato chips or serve the sandwich with poker chips? Howard C. Berkowitz 17:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know but a cold beer sounds good about now. Mary Ash 17:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)