Talk:Knowledge

Copyright license

By this document I confirm that I know that my article entitled 
"Place of science in the human knowledge"
currently posted at 
http://www.ils.uec.ac.jp/~dima/PAPERS/2010mestoe.pdf
is used in the derivative works
"Knowledge" posted at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Knowledge
and 
"Structure of knowledge" posted at http://wikilivres.info/wiki/Structure_of_knowledge_%28Kouznetsov%29
and I allow the free use and modification while the origiunal source and the authorship are attributed.
2010 July 1, Dmirtrii Kouznetsov.

Karl Popper - related?

Not sure about Karl Popper being related to knowledge. As philosophers go, there are others who have a more direct knowledge to the concept of knowledge than Popper. –Tom Morris 12:37, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see the need for most of the material added by Dimitrii Kouznetsov

• I deleted most of the section on religion because it was nothing more than a highly un-neutral rant against religion and against Russian and Chinese Communism. As for the part that I did not delete, I strongly question whether it is relevant to the intent of this article, namely explaining what is meant by the word "knowledge".

• Do we need the section entitled "Sciences" ? I don't think so. I don't see how that section is relevant to explaining what is meant by the word knowledge. We have the Scientific method article, which is an approved article that covers the same ground much, much more thoroughly. Personally, I think that section should be completely deleted.'

• The section entitled "Science and society" gets involved with talking about research budgeting, bureaucratic corruption, bribery, and totalitarianism. What in the world has that got to do with explaining what is meant by the word "knowledge" ??? I think that section should also be deleted.

• As for the section entitled "Objectivity", I agree with Tom Morris (see above). Who is Karl Popper and how or why are his ideas relevant or valid to this article meant to explain what is meant by "knowledge" ??

• The section currently entitled "To be named" needs to be named.

Unless others voice strong objections in the next few days, I plan to delete all or almost all of what Dimitrii Kouznetsov added to this article. Milton Beychok 03:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

My posting just above is in my role as a CZ author only. It has nothing to do with my being an editor in the Engineering and Chemistry workgroups and it has nothing to do with my being a member of the Management Council. Milton Beychok 03:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Quick reaction: I agree that much of it should be deleted, but please hold your hand while I consider what should be retained. Nick Gardner 09:03, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Second take: I believe that the safest course would be to delete everything added by Dmitrii Kouznetsov, leaving only Larry Sanger's stub. (If anyone wants me to say why, I will explain). It may be that some of Dmitrii's drafting could usefully be retrieved for use in a rewrite, but I do not think that it would be sensible to attempt selective deleting.

Is anyone willing to do a rewrite? Nick Gardner 10:34, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I also think a great part of this article can just be deleted as it looks indeed like a personal analysis rather than an encyclopaedic article. However, couldn't a sentence like Generally, knowledge is the ability to generalize the experience in a compact form... just be re-formulated as something like: Another possible definition of knowledge is the ability to generalize the experience in a compact form.., etc., with indication of the sources where this definition comes from?

After all, though it is of course far-fetched to present this like an objective fact, it still doesn't look like utter nonsense. Stefan Olejniczak 13:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Nick. Not everything is nonsense, but large parts are a personal essay Gareth Leng 13:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I will hold off and let others try re-writing it ... although I stlll believe Larry Singer's original stub was better than what we now have. Milton Beychok 14:54, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, Milton, and I am in favour of deleting all except Larry's stub immediately - in preparation for the addition to it of a rewrite in due course. The present draft does not do CZ credit. Nick Gardner 21:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) As an Engineering editor, I am far from a philosophy expert. Since you are a philosophy author, why not just "be bold" and do it ... go completely back to Larry's original stub. As you say, the present article does not do us credit ... in fact, it discredits us. Milton Beychok 22:07, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK - If no-one objects I will try to do that - starting by deleting everything except Larry's stub . Nick Gardner 06:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I started a new section, 'To know', and partially developed it. I'd like to keep it for further development, after which you all can decide on its merits/relevance. I believe 'to know' is more basic than knowledge', exploring its meaning will shed insight on the meaning of 'knowledge'. I will supply inline citation once I have a full draft of the section. Anthony.Sebastian 16:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood what is required here. If it is an essay on the semantics of the word knowledge that it is required, I will be content to stand back and leave it to others. What I had in mind was a concise and non-discursive outline of some of the better-known philosophical theories of knowledge - expanding briefly on Larry's stub and sticking closely to the writings of eminent academics.

I think a choice has to be made between those two approaches: I do not believe that they can be combined Nick Gardner 21:56, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I have deleted all except Larry's stub and Anthony's "to know" paragraph. I won't do anything else until there is a response to the above (of 8 December) Nick Gardner 15:22, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the focus of this article is well beyond the semantics of the concept (though that would probably merit a paragraph, perhaps in an "Etymology" section). Your second option fits with what I think is expected here. --Daniel Mietchen 15:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

language variant

The Metadata says it is AE and it starts out with " for quotes. Then uses ' for quotes. Hayford Peirce 16:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

The quotes should of course be consistent, but I'm not convinced by your theory, Hayford. In Britain in the 1950s I was taught to use " for quotes, and was not surprised about it, having seen them in Noddy books and in all my subsequent reading. It wasn't until the sixties that I came across ' for quotes. Ro Thorpe 19:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Ro, you may have found the subject for at least a Master's thesis, or even PhD! I don't have all that many early Brit books, but I've located a number of them and the evidence seems to back you up, but is still contradictory. Here we go in order:

Stop Press, by Michael Innis, hardback, Victor Gollanze, 1939, " " quotes

The Saint Goes West, by Leslie Charteris, hardback, Hodder and Stoughton, 1942, " " quotes

Meet the Tiger, by Leslie Charteris, hardback, Ward Lock, reprinted in 1952, " " quotes

The Long Goodbye, by Raymond Chandler, paperback, Penguin, reprinted in 1959, ' ' quotes

According to the Evidence, by Henry Cecil, paperback, Penguin, reprinted in 1963, ' ' quotes

Close of Play, by Simon Raven, paperback, Panther Books, reprinted in 1966, ' ' quotes

Friends in Low Places, by Simon Raven, paperback, Panther Books, 1967, " " quotes

I have a vague memory of being told by someone in publishing, or reading it, that maybe the Brits moved to ' ' quotes because so many US books were being brought in (their plates) and being reissued illegally with the original US text that the ' ' became standard in order to prove that the Brit books were original, or at least had been reset. Does that make sense? Hayford Peirce 20:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Commendable research, Peirce. Indeed, that's entirely consistent & believable, is it not? I think I first noticed the ' quotes when I began reading Agatha Christie in British paperbacks, a variety of publishers, around 1961. Cf. The Long Goodbye above. Ro Thorpe 20:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)