Talk:Abraham Lincoln

Article Checklist for "Abraham Lincoln"

Workgroup category or categories	History Workgroup, Politics Workgroup, Military Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developed article: complete or nearly so
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Matt Mahlmann 21:31, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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This is a wonderfully readable and interesting article. Thanks, Dr. Jensen. --Larry Sanger 10:14, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

I enjoyed reading the article, I added quite a few wikilinks. Some links I know do not exist yet, but I hope they will soon. I hope they are found acceptable, otherwise anyone may change or revert. Matt Mahlmann 21:03, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

I have to add my voice here. I'd love to see this worked toward approval. Stephen Ewen 21:26, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

For a really interesting take on Abraham Lincoln encyclopedia articles, go to http://chnm.gmu.edu/resources/essays/d/42 and use your browser to search for the words If the unpaid amateurs and then read the two paragraphs that follow. Stephen Ewen 01:46, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Rosenzwig makes some good points. But Using a paid essay by a Pulitzer prize winner, who had a year to do it and professional editing help, as the standard is a bar too high, which no reference work can remotely approach. Richard Jensen 15:48, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Just some good ideas there, that's all, like using some choice Lincoln quotes. Stephen Ewen 19:43, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Neutrality issues

Reading through this article, it seems to me that some of the language presents neutrality issues, particularly in the intro. Here are the points I noticed specifically:

• Much of the intro seems to praise Lincoln and defame his enemies. For instance, it says that he "saved the Union". Lincoln's policies did have the result that the United States continued include the south, but is "saving the Union" the most neutral way to describe this? The same sentence describes him as "an icon of American values"; what does it mean to say that someone is an icon of a nation's values? The following sentence adds additional plaudits.

• The intro says that Lincoln "abolished slavery". As I'm sure we're all aware, this is not, strictly speaking, true. Slavery in the U.S. was abolished by the 13th amendment, and amendments are passed by Congress and the states, not by the president. I realise that Lincoln played a large role in abolishing slavery, but still this phrasing enhances the laudatory tone.

• Does "slave power" menace republican ideals? Didn't slave societies produce most of the greatest American republicans, viz Washington, Jefferson, Madison (to say nothing of the ancient Greek republicans as another example).

• The intro states that Lincoln's destruction of the Confederacy, "guaranteed that 'government of the people by the people for the people, shall not perish from the earth.'" Is this a neutral observation? Granted, it was Lincoln's own view of his actions, but, to take two examples, Acton and H.L. Mencken argued that the opposite was true.

• Under Whig Politician, the article states that Lincoln had "four brilliant terms" in the state legislature. Ideally, it should elucidate what was brilliant about them.

• When discussing the 1860 presidential campaign, the article says, "Republicans demanded equal rights and freedom for all men". This seems to imply that the Republicans campaigned on an abolitionist platform in 1860, which was not the case. The general tone of the article's treatment of Lincoln and the Republicans during this period seems to emphasise their principled opposition to slavery in a way that strikes me as slightly dubious ... however, I'm not an expert on the subject, so I will leave that to more informed opinions.

• The clause, "aware that this was a crisis in mankind's history" (in the second paragraph under Civil War: 1861) has a rather vague meaning, which the remainder of the sentence does little to clarify: "Lincoln pledged never to surrender 'that sentiment in the Declaration of Independence which gave liberty, not alone to the people of this country, but I hope to the world for all future time.'" Lincoln was not much involved in intervening overseas, so the mention of the Declaration giving liberty to the world is a bit of a non sequitur in the context of discussing his policies in office.

• The article says, ""Sherman gave Savannah to the nation as a Christmas present". This is an unfortunate bit of phrasing, considering the toll of human suffering that the capture of Savannah caused.

• Under Civil War: 1864-5, the article says, "The issues over which the Civil War was fought - union versus disunion, freedom versus slavery - proved to be nonnegotiable." This seems a bit like post hoc analysis. It's true that there was, in fact, no negotiated solution to the war. Various people tried to negotiate one, though, and it's hard to know for sure that it couldn't have worked.—Nat Krause 02:04, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

In response to Nat Krause.

1. it's not controversial to say AL saved the Union. Historians are pretty unanimous about that. Whether that's good or bad depends on whether you want the Confederacy to win.
2. 99% of the slaves of 1860 were freed by the time the 13th amdt passed; the Emancipation did most of the work. Lincoln by the way is given primary credit for the 13th.
3. "Slave Power" was the way Lincoln and the GOP phrased the issue. By 1860 the slaveowners had repudiated Jefferson.
4. did Lincoln promote government of/by/for the people? More than anyone else, and he locked that goal deep into the American value system. Mencken cannot be considered a serious historian, and he despised democracy, so his goal was ridicule not scholarship. Acton supported the Confederacy; he was not much in favor of liberty for the blacks.
5. good point about AL in Illinois state legislature. The whole article is short and needs expansion especially here.
6. "equal rights and freedom for all men" was Lincoln's position in 1860 and the Rep party as well. The 1860 GOP platform said: That all men are created equal... is essential to the preservation of our Republican institutions; and that the Federal Constitution, the Rights of the States, and the Union of the States, must and shall be preserved.[1]
7. Lincoln had a world vision (very explicit in Gettysburg address)--he saw a world historical duty [if I can use a Hegelian term] to promote democracy worldwide and that is a major legacy
8. It is not true that Sherman hurt Savannah or its people--in fact he lifted the blockade and brought in food, and freed the slaves. Sherman himself used the "Christmas present" terminology.
9. union versus disunion proved to be non-negotable as late as Feb 1865 when Lincoln personally met with top Confederate leaders; freedom versus slavery -- Lincoln tried very hard to buy out the slaves but the slaveowners refused. Richard Jensen 03:21, 24 April 2007 (CDT)