CZ Talk:Introduction to CZ for Wikipedians

Hey Steve, let me leave this in your hands. See CZ:Introduction to CZ for Wikipedians for what I worked on--feel free to fold it in, or not use it. I didn't realize that you were at work on this, or I wouldn't have bothered. --Larry Sanger 14:48, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

workgroups

workgroups build collaboration that wp did not/does not have.

workgroup recent changes allow you to monitor article changes within a general field.

wikipedia had sub-categories that only allowed you to monitor recent changes within that small sub-category instead of a general category like "biology workgroup."

Articles need to get tagged with workgroup tags for workgroup recent changes to work to its full potential.

Adding your name as an author to a workgroup...

Applying to become an editor of a workgroup...

Will add more ideas later. -Tom Kelly (Talk) 19:44, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

?

Really?

"At Wikipedia, creating lots of stubs is considered productive. Someone will always come along and add to it, "eventually". At Citizendium, we feel it is much better to start one or just a few articles, and concentrate on them until they are approved."

This is policy? -Tom Kelly (Talk) 20:09, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

What about Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikisource, etc.?

Do we ignore these? Link to them? Set up a Citictionary? Having done a lot of work on Wiktionary, I find it to be much simpler to work with and less subject to contention, manipulation, and plain silliness, than Wikipedia. Wikiquote, on the other hand, has some of the basic problems of Wikipedia on a smaller scale - obsession with pop culture trivia, arguments as to the notability of persons and media quoted, and efforts to manipulate the placement of quotes on contentious issues such as abortion and religion to score points for one ideological position or the other. Brian Dean Abramson 20:02, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

I think if a word needs to be defined, the article should define it. Etymologies belong parenthetically or in a footnote. Given what you said about Wikiquote, why bother linking to it at all?? Placing a link to Project Gutenberg or Wikisource's copy of Journey into the Interior of the Earth in an article about Jules Verne plainly seems good practice. Stephen Ewen 22:39, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Bringing in solid, unchanging articles from Wikipedia

I've written 100+ Wikipedia articles on WWII U.S. Navy ships and some related subjects. They are all based on the public domain Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships (DANFS), but with some facts, public domain photos, etc. added by me. If I do say so myself, they are pretty good encyclopedia articles. There has been very little editing by other people.

Since these are basically historical articles about subjects that are not ever going to change (the ships were scrapped long ago), I'd like to be able to bring them over to CZ without making a lot of changes just for the sake of making changes. (It would be VERY hard to make factual changes, and troublesome to make wording changes, though the latter COULD be done.)

What should I do about these articles? Louis F. Sander 20:27, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Hi Louis. That sounds like a decision for the Editor-in-Chief. - Stephen Ewen 20:48, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Reading CZ:How to convert Wikipedia articles to Citizendium articles, it seems that you are free to copy them if you think that the Wikipedia articles are good and you adopt them to the Citizendium house style (remove categories and interlanguage links; that sort of stuff). I haven't seen an argument against copying them in this case. -- Jitse Niesen 21:26, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

There is more to it because the articles are based upon the public domain Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. My own question is that if they really are unchanging at WP then is that not just mirroring them here? Are they really not improvable given CZ:Introduction_to_CZ_for_Wikipedians#Get_ready_to_rethink_how_to_write_encyclopedia_articles.21 ? Stephen Ewen 21:28, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

There are tons of good articles at Wikipedia that if you don't bring over eventually we'll be lacking here. If you get 1 enthusiast who wants to write on a rare topic, it is unlikely that he/she will want to completely change the way they approach writing an encyclopedia entry for a separate encyclopedia. Please, let's access the good content at WP and bring it over here. -Tom Kelly (Talk) 21:39, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

By bringing the articles to CZ they will go under the scrutiny of the editors before being approved and may indeed improve slightly. So if your article is really good and ready for approval, it will "improve" during the approval process. Bringing the article over will also attract the article to a group of experts that may not have stumbled across it at Wikipedia. I am not authority or an expert - just my opinion. -Tom Kelly (Talk) 21:42, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

All good points, Tom. The thing that is holding me up in this case from say yes, go ahead, this is clearly allowed by the exception clause, is that the articles are based on a public domain encyclopedia. I am just not sure of the status with that. This is why we need to get a decision on the matter, and one on principle that we can institutionalize into our policy...for the next time this issue comes around. :-) I'll get an answer. - Stephen Ewen 22:44, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for the good discussion so far. I've brought one similar article over already, and of course I removed all the categories (there were a bunch of them). I'm mainly wondering how many wording changes, if any, should be the norm for articles like these. If I change a few things just to change them, somebody could of course make the same changes in the WP article. I'm thinking it might be a good practice to change something, just so one could examine the WP and CZ versions and tell them apart, at least until somebody makes them identical, if that should ever happen.

The article I brought over was USS Rankin (AKA-103). The CZ version is HERE, the WP version is HERE. I put in a better photo when I put it on CZ, and I made some other changes just to conform with CZ desires. It would be most excellent if other similar articles could be brought over without making changes just for the sake of making them. Louis F. Sander 00:32, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Let me just say I think the article could be improved stylistically. See Article Mechanics--Narrative coherence and flow, Improving articles stylistically and Get ready to rethink how to write encyclopedia articles. - Stephen Ewen 11:15, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Too much trouble, too little reward. 100+ stylistic rewrites of 100+ fairly long, reasonably good articles? No thanks. Louis F. Sander 04:10, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm still thinking about this, especially the desire to differentiate CZ articles from those in WP. Is the idea just to make sure that they are different? (If that's the case, making some style changes would do it.) Louis F. Sander 16:57, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

I just noticed this debate. The reason for the policy against bringing WP (or other free content) articles in unchanged is that we don't want to be a mere mirror of other freely available content. Why not? Mirrors do no one any good. Well, you might say, don't they expand CZ's base of content, and isn't that a good thing? Perhaps, but if, simply out of vanity, I just wanted to have my Wikipedia articles hosted by another, perhaps more credible source, and I were just as apt simply to forget about them as work on them, then my content might degrade in quality over time, since no one who's mainly responsible for creating it is on board. It's important that people who are committed to articles be on board. I think that's the bottom line. We don't really trust people to bring articles in willy-nilly; we've seen too many people bring in an article, only to let it sit unedited, particularly when it badly needs editing.

This is why we can allow exceptions like Jaap Winius' many asp articles, as well as the classics articles imported by Ori Redler, as well as articles an aerospace engineer (I forget his name) has talked about importing. We have their commitment in hand.

So, on the same grounds, I would say to Mr. Sander that you are very welcome to import your articles, if we can have your word that you will maintain them--you know, look in on them from time to time, and make sure they're up to our standards--here on CZ. Will you, however, please make a template to place on the top of the talk pages of all of these articles, explaining the situation, that you're committed to maintaining them if no one else does? If we get your word, that's another exception to add to Article Deletion Policy. --Larry Sanger 17:56, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

I brought over another of my Wikipedia ship articles, polishing it in a minor way as I did so. I put a pretty detailed statement on the talk page HERE. Thinking that this might serve as a pattern for "my" other articles and for others who bring "their" articles over from WP, I'm wondering three things:

1) Are the minor changes to the article OK, or should we who do this try hard to make more substantive ones?

2) Is the statement on the talk page OK, or overkill, or ???? (Once it is as it should be, I'd intend to use it for the 100+ other similar articles I bring over.)

3) Considering the small amount of "Wikipedia" work in the article, and the large amount of "Lou Sander" work, how important is it to check the "Wikipedia" box at the bottom of the edit screen? Louis F. Sander 16:58, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I brought over four more articles using a similar technique, which might serve as a model for others. It is also subject to improvement and refinement, of course. The articles are USS Alchiba (AKA-6), USS Alcyone (AKA-7), USS Algorab (AKA-8), and USS Alhena (AKA-9). They all have some changes, some improvements, and a WP disclaimer on the talk page. I'm being bold, but still wondering about the questions raised immediately above. Louis F. Sander 10:38, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

CZ and WP on the Screen

When one has CZ and WP articles open at the same time, and has scrolled down past the top few inches of the screen, there is no visual differentiation between the two. It would help if CZ used a different background color for the left frame (or border, or whatever it might be termed), or put some sort of wallpaper-like graphic there. Or at least a different shade of gray. Having done this in other contexts, I prefer a very pale shade of blue.

If editors can't easily tell whether they are looking at CZ or WP, some really bizarre editing accidents await us. Louis F. Sander 08:18, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

PS - It would also be MOST excellent if the left border could appear in another color, preferably yellow for caution, when in edit mode. Louis F. Sander 09:49, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Here are a couple workarounds for now. One, use Firefox if you use Windows or Mac (with IE) and download the IE tab extension, then consistently open one or the other in an Internet Explorer tab. Two, see CZ:Enhancing_your_editing_with_java_extensions and follow the directions to use it at CZ. Either one of these -- or both -- will make things look differently. — Stephen Ewen 06:07, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

In a nutshell

As someone who is an experienced editor to wikipedia and new here to citizendium, I'm sat here thinking what does it all mean? What is the fundamental difference between the two projects and what will their relationship be?

These are my thoughts so far - please correct me if I am going wrong:

• Scope/Depth: Certain articles on wikipedia would not be on Citizendium, because:
  • Articles on CZ must be Maintainable rather than following Wikipedia:Notability (maintainable being a higher bar)
  • Articles must be family friendly

• Standard: Articles should be of a higher standard because:
  • Articles are written by expert Authors
  • Editors are held to a higher standard of behaviour (no anon editing, real names, more censure)
  • Once approved articles cannot be instantly edited

Both projects are free-content based, and therefore you would expect the projects to be intimately linked, sharing content and editors.

At the moment the tone of the relationship seems quite sour - CZ is better than WP, and we'll prove it. Perhaps a more sensible route in the long term is to imagine a future where both projects exist side by side - perhaps with WP providing the more trivia-based information and CZ the academic rigour for the more serious articles.

You could imagine a future where content is freely shared. Content on WP can be used as a base for CZ articles and then copied back to WP when it has been improved. CZ articles are locked so they become a more reliable source, but WP is quicker to edit so it may become more up to date, say, with current events.

Am I on the right lines here? Andrew Turvey 18:26, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Whether over time WP specializes in pop culture items while CZ in more serious topics is a matter only time will tell. — Stephen Ewen 19:42, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

New template

Incidentally, please see my new template here: {{WP}} Andrew Turvey 18:26, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

really?

This page says:

At Wikipedia, creating lots of stubs is considered good practice.

Really? Few people have a longer Wikipedia editing history than I do, and I for one never considered this good practice. The only time I've run into someone considering it good practice was when I argued in favor of creation of redirect pages with non-existent targets (misnomers or incorrect spellings or the like redirecting to the correct spelling to forestall creation of an incorrectly titled new page). Someone said: why don't you just create a new stub article instead? (I didn't, in the cases I had in mind, because I didn't know enough about the topics.)

(I will heroically abstain from sarcastically saying it is considered good practice to leave a "stub" notice at the bottom of an article after it's length rivals that of War and Peace and it's been cited in the most prestigious scholarly journals a hundred times. I think some efforts have been made to prevent that from happening, but not enough.)

Michael Hardy 13:14, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

You might be different. But look at WP policies and general practices. If creating stubs were not considered good practice, then why are not stubs of 50 words or less older than a few hours old not summarily deleted at Wikipedia as they are at CZ (see here). More so, why do I read such encouragement about creating stubs at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub? There, one is even offered advise on how to create an "Ideal stub article". Heck, we can even fulfill wishes from a list of Wikipedia's Most Wanted Stubs. Do you have a better way to describe this than "considered good practice"?---Stephen Ewen 14:49, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

"Considered good practice" is not the same as "considered tolerable" or "considered OK", etc. Michael Hardy 20:52, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

Within the mathematics sub-culture at WP, what you are saying may be true; but not at all for the project as a whole. Still, let's change it to "an encouraged practice". At the very least, Wikipedia's Most Wanted Stubs actively encourages the creation of stubs. Stephen Ewen 21:34, 30 April 2007 (CDT)