Talk:British and American English

Wallets and Pocketbooks

I just noticed that Wallet is listed as Brit and Pocketbook as 'Merkin. SURELY this has been reversed from what it SHOULD be! We had a LONG discussion about this years ago at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:British_and_American_English/Archive_1#wallet -- unless I am really wrong about this, I will switch the two around eventually.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

You say wallet, I say wallet, who says pocketbook? Americans, I thought. I may have heard it on the radio/TV a couple of times.

Just remembered billfold, which is obviously American. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Good catch! Shall I change the listing to wallet for Brit, wallet; billfold fer 'Merkins? And eliminate pocketbook entirely. As I said five years ago in the original discussion, NO 'Merkin male carries a pocketbook. Never, ever, not even once. But "billfold" is used occasionally. Less now, I think, than when I was young. Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that would be fine by me. Ro Thorpe (talk) 02:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

How about the female equivalents? What we call a handbag they call a purse. I don't know what they call what we call a purse, i.e. a small container mainly for money that can fit inside the handbag. (Just to confuse things, the Oscar Wilde sense of handbag is now obsolete, replaced by holdall here and grip there.) Peter Jackson (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Merkin's use the word handbag also, in the same sense as a purse. But "purse" can *also* be that small currency container that fits inside a handbag. I think we discussed this earlier in the archived link. I don't think that the differences between the two countries are distinct enough to make this an item on the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• I impulsively decided to archive this page. Hope that's OK. The previous section's talk at Archive 2 can be continued if need be. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Fine with me. It was getting a little long in the tooth. Superannuated? I don't THINK that 'Merkins use that word....Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

And therefore not healthful. Just seen that for the first time (on my WP talk page). Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Okie, I've looked up superannuate and it doesn't say chiefly Brit., to my surprise. Are you saying that healthful is not used it Brit. at all? In M-W it has a long separate entry from healthy and there *are* differences.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't recall hearing it, no. Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Even great Rheault can nod. Here's what the Concise Oxford says about healthful: a. Health-giving; conductive to moral or spiritual welfare. Hence ~LY adv., ~NESS n. Nothing about it bein' 'Merkin usage. But I'm sure that we DO use it more.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Never heard it on BBC, Sky, Al Jazeera, CNN. Perhaps they use it on Fox News, I tend to skip that one. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Twee and quaint

These aren't synonyms. Quaint is a term of approbation, twee of disapproval. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, "quaint" *also* has another sense of "odd, figures of fun, strange". "Old-fashioned" in a disapproving sense, too. I think that today, in the States, at least, it's a coin-flip as to whether it's a word of approbation OR at least somewhat disparaging. The M-W says of twee: (1905) chiefly Brit: affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint <such a theme might sound ~ or corny -- Times Literary Supp.> -- that's where I grabbed quaint from. Please give me a better one and I'll make the change. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Quite right, quaint can be negative, too. Once again the direct equivalent table model is failing us. Much better would be a list of words that are (normally) not used by Americans, and another of those not used by Brits, each entry as long as needed. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

You are, of course, absolutely right. The question is: who will do it? Our manpower is severely constricted.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Glad you agree in principle, anyway. Earlier I thought of bolding those that are normally restricted to one variety only, like sidewalk. Room for lots of disagreement there? Or just lots of work? Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I think we're proposing something that is gonna be a lot of work, with only a couple of us contributing to it. A LOT of time, for instance, could probably be spend on individual items like tadpole/polliwog and purse/handbag etc. etc. Freeways, divided highways, dual carriage ways, motorways, etc. etc. etc.... Where is Doctor Johnson when you need him? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think we need to worry about the amount of work. What actually needs to be done is for anything that's not straightforward "We usually say this, they usually say that" should be removed from the table and replaced by more dicursive explanation somewhere else, such as Lexis and idiom. This doesn't need to be done suddenly in one large operation. We can do it one item at a time whenever we feel like it. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's the way to look at it. Ro Thorpe (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Some more words to consider

From Sword of Honour, page 217 getting near the end of the first book:

"A potty little show." M-W traces this back to 1860 and says it's chiefly Brit, meaning either trivial or insignificant, OR slightly crazy, OR snobbish.

Just means 'crazy' to me.

"All round the bum boats floated....", page 229. For the spelling section? In 'Merkin it is all around.

It's audible, not just spelling. Lexis and idiom, more like.

"she was not much of a dab at anything" -- M-W says it's chiefly Brit and is a "skillful person". I've also frequently seen something like "he's a dab hand" in all sorts of Brit books....

I only know it in the latter expression.

From The Mathematics of Murder, a little-known collection of short stories by the esteemed Michael Gilbert, a man who also writes a very clean prose:

The first story concerns murders being committed on railroad cars carrying commuters out of London. He refers to them as either coaches or carriages. I'm pretty sure that 'Merkin-talk is cars.

Correct.

Also, to my vast surprise, he describes these carriages as having a central gangway "down the middle". The old Brit trains with individual compartments had a corridor, I think, but American ones with open seating would have an aisle.

Also.

On the same page, 17, he refers to a pantechnicon, which is NEVER used in the States. A very large lorry, I believe?

Correct.

In the next story, page 33, he refers to a rough shoot (the great Geoffrey Household had a novel called A Rough Shoot), and I don't think there is any exact 'Merkin equivalent. Shoot does exist in 'Merkin but isn't much used, I think. Hunting rights I *think* is what we would say.... Maybe a blind....

I'd need the context for this one.

Also in this story, various lawyers and accountants look at account sheets -- I think these are bank statements or ledger pages but am not quite sure. Hayford Peirce (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No idea about that last one. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Have to be careful with technical stuff. There's a varety of different accounting documents (or were pre-computer). Might need an accountant to clarify what's what. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes indeed. I did a little googling on this one,then decided to stay clear of it. Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation -- Caribbêan

I just noticed this. At least in MY experience, BOTH pronunciations are common in the States -- Cah-RIB-ee-un, AND Care-ah-BE-un. Might be slightly regional. I know that over my own lifetime I have gone from one to the other. The second seems to be more common these days.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I first became aware of the first (Cəríbbean) just in the last few years. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I THINK that when I wuz younger we used the first more, then as I aged moved to the second. But I just don't know.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

trucks and lorries

Am almost at the end of the second novel comprising the Sword of Honour trilogy. The first was written around 1952, the second in 1955. Both are quintessential Waugh, the master of "British" English prose. In the first novel there are many references to "lorries" as Guy Crouchback moves back and forth across the UK. Towards the end of the second book he is in Egypt and then Crete. Here Waugh begins referring to lorries as trucks, then back to lorries, then to trucks again. Generally describing the same vehicle a few pages apart. He would have killed himself rather than knowingly used an "Americanism" in his prose, other than in dialog (in which his Americanisms were noticeably BAD). There's no possible way that he could have done this by mistake and then not picked it up at some point in his rewriting and copy-editing. I wonder what was going on here. DID British soldiers in 1941 sometimes refer to lorries as trucks? Hayford Peirce (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't know about that. I tend to think of lorries as bigger than trucks, but I couldn't specify the distinction out of my head. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Got round to checking Chambers, which confirms: they're both for carrying goods, with lorries for heavier loads.

Another one where we have finer gradations is stones, which are in between rocks and pebbles. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh my, I don't think I want to get into that! My tennis club locker room got a new electronic scale the other day -- it can be set to read in pounds, kilograms, or stones! A guy who had spent 25 in England and I were scratching our heads about the stones. I said it was 12 lb., he said it was 16. But neither made any sense for my weight in pounds. So I finally looked it up. 14 pounds. Wikipedia, incidentally, does NOT have an article about it. Hayford Peirce (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking of those stones (which are in our article). It's the more literal ones.

I know, I just brought this up as a "By the way...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

On the BBC this morning: it has been known for British material to be subtitled on American TV. They didn't mention whether it happened the other way. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

bowler hat and derby

The scholarly Companion to Sword of Honour that has been so useful says that "bowler hat" is the Brit term for "derby" (the first ones were made by an outfitter called, in part, Bowler. I think that 'Merkins also say bowler hat from time to time, but is "derby" ever used in this sense in Blighty? Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. Ro Thorpe (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Okie, then I'll put it in the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Lay-by

'Turnout' or 'pullout', says Wikipedia. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds right to me. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Meter/re

We need an explanation of the different senses in Britain. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, but it is covered in the Suffixes table. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Enquiry vs. Inquiry

Just came across a gift shop/nut (as the kind you eat) shop/ museum called Perry's Nut House in Maine that was once run by distant relatives of mine. They were using the word enquiry on their website, so I looked it up. M-W says only that it's chiefly Brit. usage for inquiry. To my 'Merkin eyes, it is misspelled.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Generally, an enquiry is a question, an inquiry is an investigation. Both are pronounced with the stress on the second syllable, while I think you stress the first. Peter Jackson (talk) 17:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Hah! I think Brits have Inquiry Agents, which I really don't think is used for 'Merkin PIs.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

As a Brit, I've never heard of Inquiry Agents (but then I'm v oldfashioned). If I wanted to ask about something, that would be an enquiry. If the government wanted to pacify public opinion by looking into something that had happened, that would be an Inquiry. --Martin Wyatt (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to tell how common it is. I know that in one of the wonderful Victor Canning books about Rex Carver, Carver tells someone sardonically that he's "just a simple inquiry agent". And the phrase turns up here and there in various Google searches.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Preparatory schools

In England these are typically age 8-13. I understand that in America they're substantially older. Wikipedia isn't explicit, but seems to imply 14-18. Would that be right? Peter Jackson (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I went to a prep school, Phillips Exeter Academy, which, along with Phillips Andover (both founded by the same guy), are the oldest and best known. They, like MOST of them, I think, are for four years, grades 9 through 12. Some of them, such as Lawrenceville and maybe Grotons and St. Pauls, took in kids a couple of years younger, I think, being basically 6-year schools. As the years have passed though, I think that more or more of the schools have not only taken in girls but have also added younger grades. I don't know if even a majority of them are strictly four-year schools these days. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

"it was hard grafting"

In the Michael Gilbert collection of stories Anything for a Quiet Life Jonas Pickett sets up shop in a small coastal town. After a while a fellow solicitor comes by to chat with him, mentioning the names of some of their competition. "I didn't come here to work myself to death," says Jonas. Mr. Clover looks at him doubtfully. "Well, we've been here for two years, and I don't mind telling you it was hard grafting at first."

So what means "grafting"? There are a number of meanings for "to graft", obviously, but none of them seem to quite fit. I THINK that what he's saying is, "It was hard making a go of it at first...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Synonymous with hard work. Includes persistence. Ro Thorpe (talk) 12:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

And for the other thing, I would say 'travelling salesman'. 'Travellers' suggests itinerants in a caravan. Ro Thorpe (talk) 12:43, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I've only come across the noun form "hard graft" before, but my Chambers gives both forms as meaning "hard work", so there's strictly speaking redundancy: "hard hard work" (like "PIN number"). Peter Jackson (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll put graft or something into the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Michael Gilbert, who was probably almost as precise in his English usage as Evelyn Waugh, writes in the above-cited story: "One whole morning was occupied with the installation of an impressive safe. Travellers called hoping to sell them office accessories...." There's an old science-fiction story, a very lesser one, by Robert A. Heinlein called The Man Who Traveled in Elephants, but that usage, at least in the States, has disappeared. His story was circa 1940.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I remember reading that and discovering it wasn't as odd as the title seemed to suggest.

The term "commercial traveller" presumably still exists. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, as far as I know "commercial traveler" is still around. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Phones

From American fiction I gather that the terms "cell (phone)" are quite common over there. I don't think I've ever come across the short form here, and even the long seems pretty rare. We correspondingly talk of a "mobile (phone)", as I think they do too. Peter Jackson (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I THINK that a lot of 'Merkins, particularly younger ones, will say, "What's your cell?" Or "What's your mobile?" I THINK that at some point there might have been a subtle difference between a cell and a mobile, ie, the mobile might have been more connected with your automobile, but I could easily be wrong on this. I myself always say "cellphone".... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Didicoy

Doubtful about this one. I'd never heard of it and a search suggests it's a rather technical family term. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

It should probably be removed. It ain't in either my 2nd Ed. M-W Unabridged of 1940 OR my complete OED. It was used in dialogue by an 80-year British admiral in a Michael Gilbert story. Talking about a traveling circus/fun-fair: "...run by a crowd of swindling didicoys, whose brats spend their days shop-lifting...." Maybe he picked it up somewhere on his OWN travels.... I didn't realize that it was so uncommon. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Not in normal usage, as they say. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

I have heard it in conversation, but I agree it's not common. Ordinary people probably mainly talk of gypsies; politically correct terms seem to be travellers, Romany and Roma. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:07, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

According to what I found, a "didicoy" is a branch of gypsydom but NOT a Roma.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

That may be "correct" usage, but I don't imagine the ordinary gorjo when using such terms makes such distinctions. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Roundabout

So Americans use neither noun, I didn't know that. Presumably not the adjective either, 'in a roundabout fashion', meaning roughly 'indirectly'? Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Strangely enough, us 'Merkins DO use that adjective in precisely that way. It's pretty common. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Makes sense if adjective preceded noun. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it almost certainly would have, in both cases.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Fowler

I do like this article, always something to make me smile in it. Looking at it now made me turn to my copy of The King's English by Fowler (1906) - worth a look - a couple of vignettes: "There are certain American verbs that remind Englishmen of the barbaric taste illustrated by such town names as Memphis" and "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" (Obviously Fowler's firm stand was in vain.) "The English and the American language and literature", according to Fowler "are both good things; but they are better apart than mixed." As differences he includes "fix up" (organize); "back of" (behind); "anyway" (at any rate); "standpoint" (point of view) "right along" (continuously), "some" (to some extent) and "just" (quite or very - as in "just lovely").Gareth Leng (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

When I was living in London in 1968 I bought Fowler's Usage and dipped into it mostly at random with great enjoyment. A true eccentric! But I did (and still do) agree with MOST of what he wrote. However, he certainly proved to be a VERY poor prophet when it came to: "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" -- as far as I can tell, they are now very commonly used everywhere. Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

cutting the sandwiches

I'm PRETTY sure that a while ago we had a discussion as to whether Brits still said "cutting sandwiches" to denote "making sandwiches". Since it isn't in the list, I must have been overruled on it. But in Michael Gilbert's fine story Holy Writ, written, I believe, in the 1980s or 90s, an 8-year-old boy says, "Shall I cut the sandwiches?" And his father replies, "I cut them before breakfast." (They are on their way to a desolate spot for the father to replicate the Biblical story of Abraham -- Gilbert can have a *very* hard edge to his apparently very urbane stories....) As I've said before, Gilbert is a very meticulous craftsman with a judicious sense of language. I don't believe he would use a deliberate anachronism.... Any further thoughts on this? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I (b. 1950) don't recall hearing it. Are you sure it is a synonym for make? One can further divide a slice (or two) of a loaf into two or four pieces. Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

That's just how I'd naturally understand the phrase. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, when I was teenager in the 50s, and for some years afterwards, I read a *ton* of British mysteries, all the early Agatha Christies, Dorothy Sayers, etc. etc. In the ones from the 20s and 30s, at least, my recollection is that people were always "going to the kitchen to cut sandwiches". Then later an Englishman named Peter Dickinson wrote a dozen or so *highly* regarded mysteries, many of which were set in earlier decades -- in *his* books people are always cutting sandwiches. From the context in all of these, as in the Gilbert story cited above, it's clear that they are making numerous sandwiches, not simply cutting previously made one into smaller pieces. I'll do a little research on this and report later. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Just looked at the Wikipedia article about Dickinson -- had forgotten how prominent a writer he is! From his mystery The Last Houseparty, a snatch of dialog: "Would you like to come over to the kitchen at eleven for tea or coffee?" "Thank you, but I've brought a flask." "Lunch, then?" "I usually cut my own sandwiches." Could it be an eccentric usage confined to mystery writers, hehe? Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I did an "advanced" Google search for the phrase "cutting sandwiches in the kitchen" and turned up these items: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=%22cutting+sandwiches+in+the+kitchen%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights= Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Commendable research, Peirce. I suspect it was frightfully upper class and dying out by the 60s. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes indeed, from this VEDDIE tony U. blog: http://snippetsnscraps.blogspot.com/2009/06/its-tuesday-and-i-cant-wait_24.html -- "There’s also a stall selling biscuits, jams and various handcrafted gifts, all made by our very enthusiastic committee members. I usually work “below stairs” cutting sandwiches in the kitchen, which is fun in a bustling kind of way, but this year will be delightfully different – I’ve been put in charge of the stall." Pip pip, wot! Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure there are other descriptive idioms like that that have been replaced by boring verbs like 'make' but I can't think of any at the moment. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Quite likely. But in this particular case, you think it would be too recondite to put in? Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I suspect it's just dated. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

packed our traps, and public assistance

Have started another Michael Gilbert, a novel called The Long Journey Home, which apparently features the solicitor Jonas Pickett in a minor role. The protagonist is chatting with someone in Italy who says he had spent 30 years working in the States. When he saw a "bust" coming, "me and my wife we packed our traps and headed for home." Is this like "part and parcel", as in "trap and trappings"? He also says that his children are now on "public assistance" -- this, I assume is "public welfare". Have we got distinctions here? Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I can only presume yes in both cases. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I can't figure out precisely what "trap" would be in 'Merkin, there are MANY slang meanings for it, but none of them seem to fit this context. So I'll let it go. And "public assistance" seems to be used widely in the States also. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I found "traps" in this sense in a number of slang dictionaries, and in OED, which gives 1813 as earliest known occurrence. I can't remember ever coming across it before, though. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't seem to be widely used. So I'll give it a pass. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Ground-nut/peanut

This at least needs clarification: "peanut" is perfectly normal British usage. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

This should probably be removed -- I think it's the sort of word that Agatha Christie might have used 80 years ago, along with motor and aerodrome, and that Evelyn Waugh used in the 50's, being toffish. I sure that no one in England today says, "Momma, please give me a groundnut butter sandwich...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I would have imagined that was different from 'peanut butter sandwich'. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)