Talk:British and American English: Difference between revisions

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== Canàrd ==
== Wallets and Pocketbooks ==


I heard this pron on CNN, but I supect it isn't standard. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:22, 4 May 2008 (CDT)
I just noticed that Wallet is listed as Brit and Pocketbook as 'Merkin.  SURELY this has been reversed from what it SHOULD be! We had a LONG discussion about this years ago at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:British_and_American_English/Archive_1#wallet -- unless I am really wrong about this, I will switch the two around eventually.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
:I've never heard anyone actually say it except when referring to a coin-coin-type canard, so I really don't know. By the way, are "canaille" and "canard" in the French list? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:29, 4 May 2008 (CDT)
:You say wallet, I say wallet, who says pocketbook? Americans, I thought. I may have heard it on the radio/TV a couple of times.
:Just remembered billfold, which is obviously American. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 21:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
::Good catch!  Shall I change the listing to '''wallet''' for Brit, '''wallet; billfold''' fer 'Merkins?  And eliminate pocketbook entirely.  As I said five years ago in the original discussion, NO 'Merkin male carries a pocketbook. Never, ever, not even once. But "billfold" is used occasionally.  Less now, I think, than when I was young. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 22:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
:::Yes, that would be fine by me. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 02:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)


i thought of the former, + don't think it is. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:45, 4 May 2008 (CDT) - but they are both.
::::How about the female equivalents? What we call a handbag they call a purse. I don't know what they call what we call a purse, i.e. a small container mainly for money that can fit inside the handbag. (Just to confuse things, the Oscar Wilde sense of handbag is now obsolete, replaced by holdall here and grip there.) [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 17:49, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::Merkin's use the word '''handbag''' also, in the same sense as a  '''purse'''. But "purse" can *also* be that small currency container that fits inside a handbag.  I think we discussed this earlier in the archived link. I don't think that the differences between the two countries are distinct enough to make this an item on the list. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


== warren ==
*I impulsively decided to archive this page. Hope that's OK. The previous section's talk at Archive 2 can be continued if need be. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 03:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
:Fine with me.  It was getting a little long in the tooth.  '''Superannuated'''? I don't THINK that 'Merkins use that word....[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
::And therefore not '''healthful'''. Just seen that for the first time (on my WP talk page). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 21:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
:::Okie, I've looked up '''superannuate''' and it doesn't say ''chiefly Brit.'', to my surprise.  Are you saying that '''healthful''' is not used it Brit. at all? In M-W it has a long separate entry from '''healthy''' and there *are* differences.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
::::I don't recall hearing it, no. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 23:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::Even great Rheault can nod. Here's what the Concise Oxford says about '''healthful''': a. Health-giving; conductive to moral or spiritual welfare. ''Hence'' ~LY adv., ~NESS n. Nothing about it bein' 'Merkin usage. But I'm sure that we DO use it more.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::Never heard it on BBC, Sky, Al Jazeera, CNN. Perhaps they use it on Fox News, I tend to skip that one. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 13:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


should this - + perhaps similar - be on the list~ bre has the ó sound, ame apparently the or sound - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 13:12, 25 May 2008 (CDT)
==Twee and quaint==
These aren't synonyms. Quaint is a term of approbation, twee of disapproval. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 13:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
:Well, "quaint" *also* has another sense of "odd, figures of fun, strange". "Old-fashioned" in a disapproving sense, too. I think that today, in the States, at least, it's a coin-flip as to whether it's a word of approbation OR at least somewhat disparaging. The M-W says of '''twee''': (1905) ''chiefly Brit'': affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint <such a theme might sound ~ or corny -- ''Times Literary Supp.''> -- that's where I grabbed '''quaint''' from.  Please give me a better one and I'll make the change. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
::Quite right, quaint can be negative, too. Once again the direct equivalent table model is failing us. Much better would be a list of words that are (normally) not used by Americans, and another of those not used by Brits, each entry as long as needed. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
:::You are, of course, absolutely right.  The question is: who will do it?  Our manpower is severely constricted.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
::::Glad you agree in principle, anyway. Earlier I thought of bolding those that are normally restricted to one variety only, like '''sidewalk'''. Room for lots of disagreement there? Or just lots of work? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 23:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::I think we're proposing something that is gonna be a lot of work, with only a couple of us contributing to it.  A LOT of time, for instance, could probably be spend on individual items like tadpole/polliwog and purse/handbag etc. etc.  Freeways, divided highways, dual carriage ways, motorways, etc. etc. etc.... Where is Doctor Johnson when you need him? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
::::::I don't think we need to worry about the amount of work. What actually needs to be done is for anything that's not straightforward "We usually say this, they usually say that" should be removed from the table and replaced by more dicursive explanation somewhere else, such as Lexis and idiom. This doesn't need to be done suddenly in one large operation. We can do it one item at a time whenever we feel like it. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Yes, that's the way to look at it. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 17:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)


== Geyser ==
== Some more words to consider ==


my dictionary says, is from a particular spring in Iceland. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:20, 29 June 2008 (CDT)
From '''Sword of Honour''', page 217 getting near the end of the first book:
:Yeah, I think I knew that. What I meant was, do the Brits (or did they) call "water heaters" in general "geysers", either after the real thing in Iceland or after the name, say, of a particular British company that made them? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:29, 29 June 2008 (CDT)


definitely i have heard that usage, which is where 'geezer' comes from, yes - don't recall if it was a cº name - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:38, 29 June 2008 (CDT)
"A '''potty''' little show." M-W traces this back to 1860 and says it's chiefly Brit, meaning either trivial or insignificant, OR slightly crazy, OR snobbish.
:Just means 'crazy' to me.


== Trailer ==
"'''All round''' the bum boats floated....", page 229. For the '''spelling''' section? In 'Merkin it is '''all around'''.
:It's audible, not just spelling. Lexis and idiom, more like.


isn't general usage for 'caravan', is it? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:48, 9 July 2008 (CDT)
"she was not much of a '''dab''' at anything" -- M-W says it's chiefly Brit and is a "skillful person". I've also frequently seen something like "he's a dab hand" in all sorts of Brit books....
:It used to be when I was a kid. Now I think they're "mobile homes", plus some other terms that don't readily spring to mind.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:38, 9 July 2008 (CDT)
:I only know it in the latter expression.


i asked coz i heard it u-no-where. is 'caravan' used in any sense in merkin? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:38, 9 July 2008 (CDT)
From '''The Mathematics of Murder''', a little-known collection of short stories by the esteemed [[Michael Gilbert]], a man who also writes a very clean prose:
:just sliced off some finger & am back from the ER feelin' OK. am gonna go to bed with an extra-cold martini but it's hard to type. "caravan" is used *only* in the sense of "a caravan of old trucks snaked its way through the desert, following their intrepid leader [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:18, 10 July 2008 (CDT)"


ouch - hope it's on the mend now. thanks for confirming my suspicions - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:36, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
The first story concerns murders being committed on railroad cars carrying commuters out of London. He refers to them as either '''coaches''' or '''carriages'''. I'm pretty sure that 'Merkin-talk is '''cars'''.
:feels fine this morning but am typing with 1 finger. "trailer" is still used, particularly in "she lives in a trailer park" or "trailer home park". Or "she is trailer park trash". poor girl.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 10:46, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
:Correct.


good; and yes, i've put it in, have heard all those uses - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:53, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
Also, to my vast surprise, he describes these carriages as having a central '''gangway''' "down the middle".  The old Brit trains with individual compartments had a '''corridor''', I think, but American ones with open seating would have an '''aisle'''.
:Also.


== redundant vs laid off ==
On the same page, 17, he refers to a '''pantechnicon''', which is NEVER used in the States. A very large '''lorry''', I believe?
isn't "made redundant" used by brits to say, "GM laid off 6,000 workers today"? or some such. it;s never used in that way in 'merkin. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 11:35, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
:Correct.
:nice one, that's exactly right, and nearly always in the passive. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 12:36, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
::active: "bill smith wuz redundantized today"? hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 13:05, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
:sounds like 'disappeared'. i'll put it in. as i type, the bbc are talking, not for the 1st time, of 'emily brontay'...sigh... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 13:21, 10 July 2008 (CDT)
::oh, i say! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:00, 10 July 2008 (CDT)


== Naughty ==
In the next story, page 33, he refers to a '''rough shoot''' (the great [[Geoffrey Household]] had a novel called '''A Rough Shoot'''), and I don't think there is any exact 'Merkin equivalent.  '''Shoot''' does exist in 'Merkin but isn't much used, I think.  '''Hunting rights''' I *think* is what we would say.... Maybe a '''blind'''....
:I'd need the context for this one.


yes, i was surprized, as jane austen would put it, that checkers wasn't in - no doubt that inspired your 'naught' - and the spelling. the 'a' spelling is a near-obsolete synonym of 'nothing', as in 'stop at naught', the 'o' spelling is 0. 'zero' is used by brits too, but has serious sci connotations. i'm surprised at 'cipher' though, i thought that usage was obsolete, or referred only to the 0 character. must stop now before my arm falls off - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:53, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
Also in this story, various lawyers and accountants look at '''account sheets''' -- I think these are '''bank statements''' or '''ledger pages''' but am not quite sure. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 00:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
:No idea about that last one. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
::Have to be careful with technical stuff. There's a varety of different accounting documents (or were pre-computer). Might need an accountant to clarify what's what. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
:::Yes indeed.  I did a little googling on this one,then decided to stay clear of it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


:?should we have both:
== Pronunciation -- Caribbêan  ==
:*naught
:*nought
::[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:35, 19 July 2008 (CDT)


i'd go for 'nought' in the table and a footnote to cover BrE 'zero' - if it's more limited than AmE usage - ? - and 'naught', which ox. has as 'arch' but then goes on to quote 3 acceptable modern usages, 'bring to', 'come to' and 'set at' to add to mine above - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:49, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
I just noticed this.  At least in MY experience, BOTH pronunciations are common in the States -- Cah-RIB-ee-un, AND Care-ah-BE-un. Might be slightly regional. I know that over my own lifetime I have gone from one to the other.  The second seems to be more common these days.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 02:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
::what's the brit fer tic-tac-toe? crosses and noughts? something like that.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:18, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
:I first became aware of the first (Cəríbbean) just in the last few years. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 18:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
::I THINK that when I wuz younger we used the first more, then as I aged moved to the second.  But I just don't know.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


== Coffin Ed Johnson and Gravedigger Jones ==
== trucks and lorries ==
[[Chester Himes]] didn't call one his of tough Harlem cops Casket Ed Johnson -- although he could have, of course: it has a nice ring to it. But i would say that the two words are interchangeable for 'merkins. although the croque-morts (a great word!) want ppl to use the word "casket". don't brits use it at all? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 13:45, 20 July 2008 (CDT)
:i never used it, but the ox says a small jewel box, for example, can be called a casket. i'll see if i can reflect that in the list - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 13:48, 20 July 2008 (CDT)
::my own impression, and MW has just confirmed it, is that a "casket" is a "fancy coffin". in deadwood you're buried in a wooden coffin. if you're a gangster in chicago, you're buried in a $10,000 casket. when winnie was walked throught the streets, what wuz he in? a coffin? a casket? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:48, 20 July 2008 (CDT)
:you're referring to the 1965 funeral, but the same with any of 'em, eg the qm, i've never heard a brit use the word casket. so the latter is a fancy coffin in america, 'twould appear - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 12:56, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
::hmmm, i'll be darned! it must have been a word introduced by the croque-morts about the time, back in the 40s and 50s, when they evolved from "undertakers" to "funeral directors".... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 13:32, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
:that figures. by the way, should 'croque-mort', which i'd never heard before, be in the french list? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:36, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
::no, no, it's just french slang that i gleaned years ago from reading the wonderful [[Lucky Luke]] comic books. books that were actually comic! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:06, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
:so i see. wikipedia has a short article on him, shooting faster than his own shadow, but can cz do better? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:39, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
::that looks like a fairly thorough article to me. a cz article could be less impersonal and better organized but it ain't for me. if you scroll down to the bottom of the french article, you'll see a typical xroque-mort in the series, looking like a vulture and smiling happily at the prospect of a gunfight. the guys who did this series really were geniuses when at their best. they were funny both visually (extremely rare, almost unheard of, even) and in the plotting and dialogue. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luke [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:59, 21 July 2008 (CDT)
:yes, accompanied by a vulture, in fact - good stuff! [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:34, 22 July 2008 (CDT)
==Pocketbook==
turned up again on the BBC, Congressman Ed Schuster I think it was. Canadian Lyse Doucet understood its metaphorical meaning... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:41, 30 August 2008 (CDT)
:We talked about it interminably a while back, now in the Archives at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:British_and_American_English/Archive_1, but, I guess wore ourselves out so badly that we never actually put it in the list. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


Ah, right, thanks for the reference - well, it's finally got its hyphen! [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Am almost at the end of the second novel comprising the Sword of Honour trilogy. The first was written around 1952, the second in 1955. Both are quintessential Waugh, the master of "British" English prose.  In the first novel there are many references to "lorries" as Guy Crouchback moves back and forth across the UK.  Towards the end of the second book he is in Egypt and then Crete.  Here Waugh begins referring to lorries as trucks, then back to lorries, then to trucks again.  Generally describing the same vehicle a few pages apart.  He would have killed himself rather than knowingly used an "Americanism" in his prose, other than in dialog (in which his Americanisms were noticeably BAD).  There's no possible way that he could have done this by mistake and then not picked it up at some point in his rewriting and copy-editing.  I wonder what was going on here.  DID British soldiers in 1941 sometimes refer to lorries as trucks? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 02:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


== vaze as in haze ==
:Don't know about that. I tend to think of lorries as bigger than trucks, but I couldn't specify the distinction out of my head. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 11:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


I dunno if I've ever heard that, but as feu mon epouse useta say, "Tous les gouts sont dans la nature...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:06, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
:Got round to checking Chambers, which confirms: they're both for carrying goods, with lorries for heavier loads.  


:mw says it's most common in canada, certainly it's new to me too - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:31, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
:Another one where we have finer gradations is stones, which are in between rocks and pebbles. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


== Fifth graders ==
::Oh my, I don't think I want to get into that!  My tennis club locker room got a new electronic scale the other day -- it can be set to read in pounds, kilograms, or stones!  A guy who had spent 25 in England and I were scratching our heads about the stones.  I said it was 12 lb., he said it was 16.  But neither made any sense for my weight in pounds.  So I finally looked it up.  14 pounds.  Wikipedia, incidentally, does NOT have an article about it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 13:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


Who are these people? Eight-year olds? Nine-year-olds? Ten-year-olds? This stuff needs a note, I think. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:05, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
:I wasn't thinking of those stones (which are in our article). It's the more literal ones.
:When I was at (British) school, the fifth form was 15-16 year olds. Given how Americans seem to inflate numbers (and everything else) I suppose their fifth form would be more like 12th? It would be useful to know what their Vice-Presidential candidate is wittering on about, though...[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 20:44, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
::I know, I just brought this up as a "By the way...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)


::How did *this* topic spring up?! Just FYI, I started 5th grade when I was 9 going on 10, but the more usual starting age would be 10. And even though 'Merkins *do* love to inflate numbers, if fifth form was 15-16 y/o's, that would probably be 11th grade for most kids that age. Most 'Merkins graduate from high school (12th grade) at 18, although 17 is possible, and 19 is not rare (particularly not among star football players). [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:02, 5 October 2008 (CDT)
:On the BBC this morning: it has been known for British material to be subtitled on American TV. They didn't mention whether it happened the other way. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:57, 17 March 2015 (UTC)


Thanks, folks. See how you like my notes. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:47, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
== bowler hat and derby ==
:Eggcellent! [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 10:53, 6 October 2008 (CDT)


Thanks, Martin. Governor Peirce? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:55, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
The scholarly ''Companion to Sword of Honour'' that has been so useful says that "bowler hat" is the Brit term for "derby" (the first ones were made by an outfitter called, in part, Bowler. I '''think''' that 'Merkins also say bowler hat from time to time, but is "derby" ever used in this sense in Blighty? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
:Hmmm, I'd never thought of expressing it that way before, but the numbers seem to be right. Innaresting.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 11:09, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
:Not to my knowledge. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 00:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
::Okie, then I'll put it in the list. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 03:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


Good. Just shows how widespread that usage seems to be in American English, whereas in Britain e.g. 'fifth formers' would rarely be used outside the school context; also such expressions are confined to secondary schools. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 11:30, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
== Lay-by ==
:It's not just "widespread", it's both universal, and, I dare say, the official language, at least in all public schools. There are a few oddities from the old *old* days, like the school I went to, [[Phillips Exeter Academy]], founded around 1780, in which the four classes (9th through 12th grades) are called, if I recall correctly, Lower Middle, Upper Middle, Junior, and Senior.  Sort of like 'Merkin colleges or universities, where we have no numbers, but Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior years.  Make of it all what you will.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 12:51, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
::Or are you guys discussing this as a *metaphor*? Ie, "Sarah Palin last night revealed that she has the gravitas and knowledge of a fifth-grader"?  Or some such.  If so, then in 'Merka, that usage is absolutely universal, and everyone would instantly know what you meant. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:21, 6 October 2008 (CDT)


Yes, that's what I meant by 'widespread' - its use where Brits would say '...of a ten-year-old'.  And not just figuratively, but also as in 'the yard was full of xth-graders' - the American novels I have read with sentences like that in, thinking, well, must be about y years old from the context... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 14:37, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
'Turnout' or 'pullout', says Wikipedia. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 18:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
:Gotcha. We are all, I would say, about on the 17th-grade level (first year post-grad studies in college) at the very least, hehe.... ~
:Yes, that sounds right to me. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


== "O Level Oscar" ==
== Meter/re ==


I read a fine Brit thriller written about 1968 in which a relatively minor character, a thuggish or maybe just loutish London teenager, had a chapter about him entitled, more or less, "O-Level Oscar" or "O Level Henry".  I got the drift of things, but it took me several years, I think, to get the exact reference. No Google in those days :( [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:18, 6 October 2008 (CDT)
We need an explanation of the different senses in Britain. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
:Yes, and it's now GSCEs (at least, I think that's the latest version) which I don't understand at all... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 09:34, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
:OK, but it is covered in the Suffixes table. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
::Actually it's General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE).  As far as I'm aware these are exams that everyone takes.  They replaced a two tier system of the GCE (General Certificate of Education) O-level, aimed at the higher level students and the CSE that was aimed at the lower level. I'm not sure how it works in reality. Do they still have GCE A-levels (like AP courses in US?) and S-levels or are they under the GCSE umbrella too? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 09:52, 7 October 2008 (CDT)
:::Yes, they still have A Levels, although they are trying to destroy those too. I think some schools tend toward the international baccalaureat as an alternative, but maybe only the cosmopolitan ones...[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 02:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


== Ever so awful ==
== Enquiry vs. Inquiry ==


It suddenly occured to me that I think the phrase "ever so" is far, far, far more Brit than 'MerkinCorrect me if I'm wrong, but where a Brit might say, "That film was ever so funny and the popcorn was ever so bad," a 'Merkin might well say, "That movie was awfully funny and the popcorn was awfully bad...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Just came across a gift shop/nut (as the kind you eat) shop/ museum called Perry's Nut House in Maine that was once run by distant relatives of mineThey were using the word '''enquiry''' on their website, so I looked it up.  M-W says only that it's chiefly Brit. usage for '''inquiry'''. To my 'Merkin eyes, it is misspelled.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:02, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
:you're quite right, but it's the sort of thing i associate with working-class females of my mother's generation - do young people use it now, i wonder? it may be enshrined in dickens etc... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
::You got me, myte. So it's working class rather than Bright Young Things? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:i'm ever so unsure of this and would value a second opinion - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 13:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::Well, I meself am awfully unsure about it -- where is [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] when we need him? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Ha! Well, I am unsure but am inclined to agree with Ro. I will try to check it out in London tomorrow, during my fleeting visit. Maybe I can use the expression in my lecture, and see how the audience responds! [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 15:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Give it a go, myte! as we Aussie sye. That would be ever so cheeky! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


== High there! ==
:Generally, an enquiry is a question, an inquiry is an investigation. Both are pronounced with the stress on the second syllable, while I think you stress the first. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 17:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
::Hah! I think Brits have Inquiry Agents, which I really don't think is used for 'Merkin PIs.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
:::As a Brit, I've never heard of Inquiry Agents (but then I'm v oldfashioned).  If I wanted to ask about something, that would be an enquiry.  If the government wanted to pacify public opinion by looking into something that had happened, that would be an Inquiry.  --[[User:Martin Wyatt|Martin Wyatt]] ([[User talk:Martin Wyatt|talk]]) 19:41, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


Correct me if I'm wrong, me mytes, but does the 'Merkin "Main Street", so beloved of birdbrained politicians, translate to "High Street", which was mentioned today in a NYT op-ed piece by a Brit? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 02:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::::It's hard to tell how common it is.  I know that in one of the wonderful [[Victor Canning]] books about [[Rex Carver]], Carver tells someone sardonically that he's "just a simple inquiry agent". And the phrase turns up here and there in various Google searches.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
:Yes. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Slight difference in usage, ''the'' high street, and also Bromley High Street (Kent) but not I think Bromley Main Street (Arizona?). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, I wondered if "the" was always used with "high street". And no, I don't believe that other names are ever used with "Main Street," ie, there is no "Peirce Main Street" in downtown Tucson. So, given all this, what will you do about the High Street-Main Street entry I made? Edit, amend, footnote, delete...? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
:Indeed, I was thinking maybe a footnote. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
::Yup, a footnote would probably be the way to go. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


== "High!" again ==
== Preparatory schools ==


I'm pretty sure that in the three fine spy novels that the Brit [[Desmond Skirrow]] wrote in the 1960s, every time an American character turned up, he would *always* say something like, "High, there!" Always spelled High. And Skirrow, who wrote copy for a big-time London advertising agency, obviously knew what he was doing hereA subtle put-down?  Satire?  Leg-pulling?  Or what?  Any other instances that you know of? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
In England these are typically age 8-13. I understand that in America they're substantially older. Wikipedia isn't explicit, but seems to imply 14-18. Would that be right? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 17:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
:I have never seen someone use "high" before. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:Yes. I went to a prep school, Phillips Exeter Academy, which, along with Phillips Andover (both founded by the same guy), are the oldest and best known. They, like MOST of them, I think, are for four years, grades 9 through 12. Some of them, such as Lawrenceville and maybe Grotons and St. Pauls, took in kids a couple of years younger, I think, being basically 6-year schools. As the years have passed though, I think that more or more of the schools have not only taken in girls but have also added younger gradesI don't know if even a majority of them are strictly four-year schools these days. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)


== Hockey Maugham, to rhyme with "Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son" ==
== "it was hard grafting" ==


I knew a Tahitian guy, whose first language was French, and second language English, who was fascinated by S. Maugham and collected his works. I could *never* get him to believe that the name was not pronounced Mog-hum, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
In the [[Michael Gilbert]] collection of stories [[Anything for a Quiet Life]] Jonas Pickett sets up shop in a small coastal town. After a while a fellow solicitor comes by to chat with him, mentioning the names of some of their competition. "I didn't come here to work myself to death," says Jonas. Mr. Clover looks at him doubtfully. "Well, we've been here for two years, and I don't mind telling you it was hard grafting at first."
:Well, with spelling pronunciation going the way it's going, who's to say the next generation won't decide he was right? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


== further to "ever so questionable" ==
So what means "grafting"?  There are a number of meanings for "to graft", obviously, but none of them seem to quite fit. I THINK that what he's saying is, "It was hard making a go of it at first...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)


I guess we never did decide what to do about "ever so something or other"....
:Yes. Synonymous with hard work. Includes persistence. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 12:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


A headline in today's ''Arizona Daily Star'' 's sports section: "A Jolly Good Show by Saints, Chargers", anent a National Football League ('Merkin version) played yesterday before 85,000 Brits in London.  I *know* that they're being tongue in cheek, and gently twitting our Limey friends, but *does* anyone in Blighty still use "Jolly good!"?  And if so, should it go into our list?
:And for the other thing, I would say 'travelling salesman'. 'Travellers' suggests itinerants in a caravan. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 12:43, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
:In the 90s on BBC World Service radio, there was a pop record request show called A Jolly Good Show, super ironic. No, I don't think this is worth putting in, having a distinctly old fashioned air, ditto 'ever so'. At least not exactly here.


Furthermore, Judge, what about "further to"? As in a bar sign that I used to see in Tahiti 45 years ago, "Further to police regulations, blah blah." I gather that it is actually used in Brit-type talk or writing. I don't think that it is in 'Merkin, however.  Wotcha! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
::I've only come across the noun form "hard graft" before, but my Chambers gives both forms as meaning "hard work", so there's strictly speaking redundancy: "hard hard work" (like "PIN number"). [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 17:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
:Gee baby, well, I guess that's kinda legalese Brit style... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


== ticks and checks ==
:::I'll put graft or something into the list. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


Have become an obsessive over the last couple of weeks about http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ -- on Tuesday night I can start my de-tox program -- and in one of the blogger's comments tonight he said that only Brits use the word "tick" for "boxes and ballots". True? Vrai? I think that I *might* have heard the expression in 'Merkin, but it sure ain't verra common.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Michael Gilbert, who was probably almost as precise in his English usage as [[Evelyn Waugh]], writes in the above-cited story: "One whole morning was occupied with the installation of an impressive safe.  Travellers called hoping to sell them office accessories...." There's an old science-fiction story, a very lesser one, by [[Robert A. Heinlein]] called ''The Man Who Traveled in Elephants'', but that usage, at least in the States, has disappeared.  His story was circa 1940.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


:That's one I've long been sensitive to, but, it seems, not in front of the computer. I'll put it in.
:::::Yes, I remember reading that and discovering it wasn't as odd as the title seemed to suggest.
:Yes, 538 I looked at when you recommended it before, &, thankya myte, I'll go there again, as I am having another wineless night as a result of antibiotics for an accursed bladder infection.  
:::::The term "commercial traveller" presumably still exists. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:Also, some chriffic Merkin writing on Bush in the Guardian today. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 03:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
::As one of the reigning writers from Minnesota, Garrison Keller, or some such, calls him always: "The Current Occupant".  May he rot in the nether regions. Can't bear to read anything about him, or even to think about him.  Fortunately he has lately vanished from all our screens and even our consciousness.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, 'tis a long time since I had to change channels to get away from him; this is still necessary alas quite often when there appears the late occupant of nº10; before him it was his mentor Thatcher, but we now have the occasional pleasure of seeing a somewhat post-conscious Maggon on our screens, & perhaps we'll live to see the other two in a similar state. Meanwhile Nulayba continues its attacks on hard-won British liberties, and it's quite normal for people to shout in public libraries.
:Do you agree with my addition of 'swish' as in 'Nike'? Always a tick to me, as learner & teacher. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
::I '''guess''' so, but as far as I know that is the *only* place it occurs. Frankly I was baffled by your addition until I saw this discussion page. I think I would remove it on the grounds that it *only* occurs in these wretched advertisements. To me, this thing, as a noun, is a "checkmark", although MW-11 defines "checkmark" as being definition #10 of check. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


== speaking  of one-off words ==
::::::Yes, as far as I know "commercial traveler" is still around. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


MW-11 does show "one-off", and doesn't call it a "Mostly Brit. usage", but I gotta say that I sure don't think of it as an Americanism.  I could be wrong, I suppose.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
== Phones ==
:Surprised at that. My Oxfords don't label it, thesaurus doesn't have it - so what do you say, or is a phrase needed? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
::Strangely enough Bill Safire wrote an article about the damn thing only a couple of months ago -- I musta read it at the time but completely forgot about it. Here it is. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/magazine/24wwln-safire-t.html/partner/rssnyt/?_r=1&scp=8&sq=one-off&st=cse&oref=slogin  I was doing a search in the NYT and *most* of their references were to something like "Two guys got off the airplane but only one off the boat." Constructions like that.... Anyway, thank you, Bill Safire. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
:Funny, for me it's always been around, & if asked I'd've hazarded that it was American.  It does indeed mean unique (a word that all sensible persons know should not be qualified) but there is this usage difference: a unique example = a one-off example (adjective), but it's a one-off = it's unique (not a noun). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
::I'll be darned. I've certainly never used it myself, and I don't think I've *ever* heard anyone speak the word.  I see now that Safire's piece was from June of 2007, and I doubt if I was even aware of the word until I read about it in his column. A strange gap in my knowledge, perhaps.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, every now & then I find I have had such a gap... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


== me shirt's too tight, myte ==
From American fiction I gather that the terms "cell (phone)" are quite common over there. I don't think I've ever come across the short form here, and even the long seems pretty rare. We correspondingly talk of a "mobile (phone)", as I think they do too. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 17:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
:Yes, I THINK that a lot of 'Merkins, particularly younger ones, will say, "What's your cell?"  Or "What's your mobile?"  I THINK that at some point there might have been a subtle difference between a cell and a mobile, ie, the mobile might have been more connected with your automobile, but I could easily be wrong on this.  I myself always say "cellphone".... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


Isn't there a Brit word "shirty"? If so, do we want it here with its 'Merkin equivalent?  Or is it too much slangy? And what did we decide to do with slang, anyhow?  Just put in slang that has stood the test of time, or what? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
== Didicoy ==
:I dunno. Certainly both my (80s) dictionaries have it, but it's not something I've heard for, er, ever so long. But then I'm not really in a position to judge. Probably better to  ask one of the Brits who actually lives there. I'd be interested to hear your nominees for American equivalent, though: indeed, that highlights the main problem, indeed the whole point, of slang: nothing is official or intended to be permanent... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
::Well, just looked it up in MW and it says: adj (1846) ''chiefly Brit'': ANGRY, IRRITATED.... That's a long time that it's been around. But, of course, I dunno if anyone ever uses it any more. I think I've still seen it in Brit. novels, but whether they're 1920s Agatha Christies or more recent ones I can't recall. I think I *have* seen it occasionally in 60s spy thrillers, etc., that sort of thing.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 05:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:I associate it with my parents & their ilk, but don't recall it in the sitcoms that BBC Prime was airing a year or two ago. Probably it is still around, but it's definitely slang, anyway. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 05:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
::Okie, so it's a no-go fer us August Lexicographers.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
:Surely someone out there has a [[Slang]] article cooking? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
::Maybe my friend Dr. Partridge -- or anyone else with 2 or 3 centuries of spare time on his hands.  That's a subject about as big as [[Knowledge]], I would say.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


== Standard ==
Doubtful about this one. I'd never heard of it and a search suggests it's a rather technical family term. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 20:30, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:It should probably be removed.  It ain't in either my 2nd Ed. M-W Unabridged of 1940 OR my complete OED. It was used in dialogue by an 80-year British admiral in a Michael Gilbert story. Talking about a traveling circus/fun-fair: "...run by a crowd of swindling didicoys, whose brats spend their days shop-lifting...." Maybe he picked it up somewhere on his OWN travels.... I didn't realize that it was so uncommon. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
::Not in normal usage, as they say. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 21:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:::I have heard it in conversation, but I agree it's not common. Ordinary people probably mainly talk of gypsies; politically correct terms seem to be travellers, Romany and Roma. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:07, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
::::According to what I found, a "didicoy" is a branch of gypsydom but NOT a Roma.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
:::::That may be "correct" usage, but I don't imagine the ordinary gorjo when using such terms makes such distinctions. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


As a northerner, I object to the description of southern English as "standard" British. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
==Roundabout==
So Americans use neither noun, I didn't know that. Presumably not the adjective either, 'in a roundabout fashion', meaning roughly 'indirectly'? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 20:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:Strangely enough, us 'Merkins DO use that adjective in precisely that way. It's pretty common. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
::Makes sense if adjective preceded noun. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 20:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Yes, it almost certainly would have, in both cases.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)


You can object all you like, that's what foreigners want to learn! Even if they go to Huddersfield School of English and arrive home with a Yorkshire accent...
==Fowler==
I do like this article, always something to make me smile in it. Looking at it now made me turn to my copy of The King's English by Fowler (1906) - worth a look - a couple of vignettes: "There are certain American verbs that remind Englishmen of the barbaric taste illustrated by such town names as Memphis" and "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" (Obviously Fowler's firm stand was in vain.) "The English and the American language and literature", according to Fowler "are both good things; but they are better apart than mixed." As differences he includes "fix up" (organize); "back of" (behind); "anyway" (at any rate); "standpoint" (point of view) "right along" (continuously), "some" (to some extent) and "just" (quite or very - as in "just lovely").[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] ([[User talk:Gareth Leng|talk]]) 14:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


I'll deal with your other points later on, when I'm in the mood. The û phoneme is a can of worms, & I wasn't so much recommending an American pronunciation as dodging the issue. But you might like to look at [[U]], where I think I tried to address the [u] v. [ju] nuisance...
:When I was living in London in 1968 I bought Fowler's Usage and dipped into it mostly at random with great enjoyment.  A true eccentric!  But I did (and still do) agree with MOST of what he wrote.  However, he certainly proved to be a VERY poor prophet when it came to: "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" -- as far as I can tell, they are now very commonly used everywhere. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 22:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


Thanks for your interest. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
== cutting the sandwiches ==


Whether that's what foreigners want to learn or not is irrelevant. See [[British English]], which says all forms must be included. Isn't this a matter of neutrality?
I'm PRETTY sure that a while ago we had a discussion as to whether Brits still said "cutting sandwiches" to denote "making sandwiches".  Since it isn't in the list, I must have been overruled on it.  But in Michael Gilbert's fine story ''Holy Writ'', written, I believe, in the 1980s or 90s, an 8-year-old boy says, "Shall I cut the sandwiches?" And his father replies, "I cut them before breakfast."  (They are on their way to a desolate spot for the father to replicate the Biblical story of Abraham -- Gilbert can have a *very* hard edge to his apparently very urbane stories....) As I've said before, Gilbert is a very meticulous craftsman with a judicious sense of language.  I don't believe he would use a deliberate anachronism.... Any further thoughts on this? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


On u, see [[Talk:English phonemes]], where I've pointed out the utter mess there. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:50, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
:I (b. 1950) don't recall hearing it. Are you sure it is a synonym for ''make''? One can further divide a slice (or two) of a loaf into two or four pieces. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 23:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


For the time being I've taken you at your word & changed the lead accordingly. However, I think it wouldn't be too hard to cover things properly. The main local variations are in pronunciation, which might be summarized thus:
::That's just how I'd naturally understand the phrase. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


#in [list of words], southern English uses à, northern English & American (& the rest of the English-speaking world?) use á
:::Well, when I was teenager in the 50s, and for some years afterwards, I read a *ton* of British mysteries, all the early Agatha Christies, Dorothy Sayers, etc. etc.  In the ones from the 20s and 30s, at least, my recollection is that people were always "going to the kitchen to cut sandwiches".  Then later an Englishman named [[Peter Dickinson]] wrote a dozen or so *highly* regarded mysteries, many of which were set in earlier decades -- in *his* books people are always cutting sandwiches.  From the context in all of these, as in the Gilbert story cited above, it's clear that they are making numerous sandwiches, not simply cutting previously made one into smaller pieces. I'll do a little research on this and report later. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
#r in [certain positions, detailed] is pronounced in American & Scottish, but not in England
#wh is pronounced as hw in American & Scottish, but as w in England (& Australia)
#in certain words the pronunciation is yoo in Britain & parts of America but oo in other parts of America (?I think, but leave that to Americans)
#others I've forgotten?


[[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Just looked at the Wikipedia article about Dickinson -- had forgotten how prominent a writer he is! From his mystery ''The Last Houseparty'', a snatch of dialog: "Would you like to come over to the kitchen at eleven for tea or coffee?" "Thank you, but I've brought a flask." "Lunch, then?" "I usually cut my own sandwiches." Could it be an eccentric usage confined to mystery writers, hehe? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


:Good start. Regarding 3), we should be clear that "wh" is [w] for the large majority of American speakers as well as basically all other non-Scotsmen. 4) is referred to as yod-dropping and is indeed well-entrenched in most American forms; it occurs regularly after alveolar and post-alveolar consonants. Another notable difference is that the short-o phoneme (as in "bother" or "hot") is merged with [a] (as in "father" or "car") in all American dialects other than Boston.&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 23:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
:::::I did an "advanced" Google search for the phrase "cutting sandwiches in the kitchen" and turned up these items: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=%22cutting+sandwiches+in+the+kitchen%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights= [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::A pronunciation dictionary I consulted said hw was usual in American. I'll go back & see which one it was. The o point was one I'd forgotten. It's mentioned in the other article. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::Commendable research, Peirce. I suspect it was frightfully upper class and dying out by the 60s. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 20:47, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::''Oxford Dictionary of Pronunciation'', 2001, just marks the h as optional in American, which doesn't get us any further.
:::::::Yes indeed, from this VEDDIE tony U. blog: http://snippetsnscraps.blogspot.com/2009/06/its-tuesday-and-i-cant-wait_24.html -- "There’s also a stall selling biscuits, jams and various handcrafted gifts, all made by our very enthusiastic committee members. I usually work “below stairs” cutting sandwiches in the kitchen, which is fun in a bustling kind of way, but this year will be delightfully different – I’ve been put in charge of the stall." Pip pip, wot! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::''Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary'', 2006, page 558: "... ususally pronounced as /w/ in British English and /hw/ in US English. The realisation /hw/ also occur amongst some speakers of British English."
::::::::I'm sure there are other descriptive idioms like that that have been replaced by boring verbs like 'make' but I can't think of any at the moment. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 21:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::''Longman Pronunciation Dictionary'', 2000, page 835: "In RP and other accents of England, and in Australian English, it is usually w ... but in GenAm usually, and in Scottish and Irish English almost always, it is hw ... (In England and Australia ... hw tends to be considered 'better', and so is used by soem people in specially formal styles only.)"
:::::::::Quite likely. But in this particular case, you think it would be too recondite to put in? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 22:02, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::page xiv: "... '''General American'''. This is what is spoken by the majority of Americans, namely those who do not have a noticeable eastern or southern accent."
::::::::::I suspect it's just dated. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 03:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


::[[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
== packed our traps, and public assistance ==


::Actually, I hadn't forgotten the o case. Rather, by the time I read your comment I'd forgotten the original purpose of the list: to cover those cases that aren't simply British vs American because some British agree with the American pronunciation or vice versa. So the o case doesn't belong in the list because it's uniformly different (I think). Contrariwise, the wh case probably doesn't either, for the opposite reason.
Have started another Michael Gilbert, a novel called ''The Long Journey Home'', which apparently features the solicitor Jonas Pickett in a minor role. The protagonist is chatting with someone in Italy who says he had spent 30 years working in the States.  When he saw a "bust" coming, "me and my wife we packed our traps and headed for home."  Is this like "part and parcel", as in "trap and trappings"?  He also says that his children are now on "public assistance" -- this, I assume is "public welfare".  Have we got distinctions here? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 22:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
:I can only presume yes in both cases. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 03:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


::(y)oo is more complicated. The article [[U]] says oo is substandard, but I'm sure it must be much more common over there than here. Certainly it's part of our folklore that Americans go to buy a noo soot (though perversely they often seem to go to Hyoostn to do so). On the other hand, East Anglian dialect has pronunciations that sound very much like hooge &c. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 15:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
::I can't figure out precisely what "trap" would be in 'Merkin, there are MANY slang meanings for it, but none of them seem to fit this context.  So I'll let it go.  And "public assistance" seems to be used widely in the States also. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)


::Merriam-Webster gives noo as standard (American), nyoo as chiefly British. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 10:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
:::I found "traps" in this sense in a number of slang dictionaries, and in OED, which gives 1813 as earliest known occurrence. I can't remember ever coming across it before, though. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


:::Hillbilly and country singers useta sing about "My neeyoo love fer yee-oo in the foggy, foggy dee-yoo," but I don't know if they still dooo or not." The closest most 'Merkins can get to pronouncing the French "u" is to be a country singer, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
::::It certainly doesn't seem to be widely used. So I'll give it a pass. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


::::Peter, you're right, I seem to have misunderstood the purpose of the list. Regarding [ʍ] (or [hw]) ... I wonder if it would be possible for me to be awarded the status of editor for American phonology, on the grounds of being a native GA speaker. Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary and Longman are just plain wrong: [w] for "wh" is quite predominant in American English. Wikipedia cites a 2006 study to the effect that "there are regions of the U.S. (particularly in the Southeast) where speakers keeping the distinction are about as numerous as those having the merger, there are no regions where the preservation of the distinction is predominant ... Throughout the U.S. and Canada, about 83% of respondents in the survey had the merger completely, while about 17% preserved at least some trace of the distinction." Regarding [ju], I think that [nu sut] for "new suit" is pretty much mandatory in most forms of American English, although I don't entirely trust my ear in distinguishing [nju] from [nu]. [hudʒ] for "huge" is unheard of here, although, ironcally, some folks go the other way and have [judʒ].
:::::Not specifically British: ''Moby Dick'', chapter 20. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)


::::Hayford, I've heard some younger Americans with a tendency to front [u] to [ʉ], so maybe if you wait long enough you will find they eventually have no trouble with the French "u".&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 23:28, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
::::::Sure it wasn't a '''lobster''' trap, hehe?  Although I think Captain Arab was after bigger game.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 15:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)


:::::It's a toughie, no question about that. I think it took me years to get pretty close to it. I still remember the mangled efforts of a poor Texan kid in my first French class many years ago. Made me grit my teeth in anguish. He never did come close to getting it. The test for the younger kids will be when they go to France and actually try to talk.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
== Ground-nut/peanut ==


I once read that a good method is to round your lips & try to say 'ee' - that gets pretty close to it - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
This at least needs clarification: "peanut" is perfectly normal British usage. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
:Yup, I remember poor Mr. Neumeister (such a French name!) telling the poor yokel to do it that way (I think), to no availA long-suffering man, fer sure! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
:This should probably be removed -- I think it's the sort of word that Agatha Christie might have used 80 years ago, along with ''motor'' and ''aerodrome'', and that Evelyn Waugh used in the 50's, being toffishI sure that no one in England today says, "Momma, please give me a groundnut butter sandwich...." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 03:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
::Indeed, I would have imagined that was different from 'peanut butter sandwich'. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 13:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


:Nat's citation is another reminder to us all that "reliable" sources are often wrong, & we have to go to the most specialized & up-to-date sources we can find. This is where a system like ours can be very effective. Lots of people working together can find lots of sources.
== polo and turtlenecks ==


:The last pronunciation he mentions is quite common here. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 12:16, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
From a recent NYT article about "polo shirts":<blockquote> What an American calls a turtleneck sweater, a Briton calls a polo-neck jumper. A camel's hair coat was, in the 1920s, "a polo coat."</blockquote>  Here in the States, today, we DO have polo shirts, AND turtleneck sweaters, and, I believe, camel's hair coats. Thoughts and comments? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
:Me?? Sorry, no idea. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 03:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


== It's hard and it's hard, ain't it hard.... ==
::Yes, "polo-neck" is common usage here, and "turtle-neck" sounds like a descriptive term for the same thing. I'll reserve comment on the exact differences in meaning of "jumper", "sweater" and "jersey". [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


...to call someone a hardware dealer.  I suppose that this does it exist, but the normal term in 'Merkin talk is "hardware store." Ie, "I'll be back in 15 minutes, I'm going to the hardware store to buy some nails." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
== Tuck ==


==Vicious==
I imagine it is still used, as the likes of Greyfriars still exist. The phrasal verb 'tuck in' is no doubt still used too. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Is 'cycle' the normal Am for 'circle'? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
:"To tuck in" is used in the States in that sense too.  (As well as to tuck someone into bed....) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
:you mean as in "vicious cycle"? I've never hoid that -- must be a typo, or ignorance. or irony. or something. I can see why someone might have '''invented''' the phrase, feeling pleased with himself, but I'm sure that it isn't in common use. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC)


::Interesting - I think that was the 2nd time I've heard that - not sure if it wasn't a Brit the first. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
==Standing in the box==
I've just been practising my Murkan, doing the crossword at dictionary.reference.com. One of the clues continued to puzzle me after I had answered it: Where people get grilled in London? In the witness box. Then I remembered from Perry Mason et al that witnesses take the stand in America. So no box, right? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 19:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


:::"Well, let's look at the record," as the 1928 Demo. pres. candidate used to say (he lost v. badly to Hoover). A Google shows 1,930,000 for "vicious circle".  And almost as many for "vicious cycle".  BUT - there seem to be a software company, a band, a bicycle factory, a blog site, and other things named "vicious cycle." None of them appear to have the same meaning as "circle".... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:46, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
:Absolutely correct, it's the witness stand.  I remember reading an old Brit legal novel in which one of the people in court referred to it as the "stand" and the judge, or someone, corrected him/her, saying, "You've been watching too many American TV shows." Maybe the wonderful Henry Cecil.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


::So it's a case of life imitating commerce, & not for the first time. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
== Row ==


== two turns of the screw ==
also means noise. Is that usage also specifically British? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
:I don't think so.  Perhaps the Brits use it a little more often than the 'Merkins.  I *think* that the 'Merkin sense of it can also imply an angry dispute as well, which contributes to the noise.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
::I don't know. An American correspondent gave it as an example of a 'British word'. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 04:29, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:::Hmmm. If it *is* a Brit word, then it's certainly one that any 'Merkin would understand.  Although maybe we use it more in the sense of "a fuss".  Could be that I've simply read so many Brit books for 65 years that I think of it as being a common word everywhere.  On the other hand, I certainly never said to my mother when I was young, "Why do the people in this book call blankets "rugs", and flashlights "torches" and Indians "Red Indians" and an argument a "row"?"
:::Well, let's look at Merriam-Webster.  Here what it says, no less and no more: '''row''' ''n'' [origin unknown] (1746) a noisy disturbance or quarrel -- so, I would say, overall, that your correspondent is wrong on this. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
::::No problem, I've removed it. I'm interested in your blankets/rugs example. To me they are separate things, blankets on beds, rugs on floors. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 17:24, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::In old Brit novels by, say, Edith Blyton or whoever she was, the kids were always wrapping themselves in rugs.  Maybe it's a term like lorry, motor, and aerodrome that has fallen into disuse.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::Ah, Enid Blyton, maybe her children lived in houses with nice clean rugs. As for 'lorry' falling into disuse, I don't think things are quite that bad, are they? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 18:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I agree that "lorries" are still about.  But *sometimes* they also appear to be "trucks", even by Brit writers.  I was shocked to see Evelyn Waugh of all people calling them trucks at *some* points in his Sword of Honour trilogy.  And they clearly were "lorries", not railway trucks.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:02, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::::See [[#trucks and lorries]]. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 15:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)


How come you gettin' rid of the 'Merkin talk fer tournament and tourniquet, myte? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
== Rugs ==
:I just streamlined it - it's still there, but it was presented differently, don't know why - now, the Br is on the left, the Am on the right, like all the others. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::Ah, okay. I see what you've done. I hadn't studied it carefully enough -- it looked to me as if a couple of items had just disappeared.  Sorry! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:16, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
:No problem! Cheers - [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


== mains ==
From Enid's '''Five Go Back to Kirrin Island''': "Well," said Julian, before Dick could catch his breath and reply. "There's the food of course. There are also ropes, spare batteries, rugs, and a couple of small spades and trowels. I've even packed a bone for old Timmy."
I doubt if he was stuffing the family Persian carpets into his knapsack, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:In my version of Brit English, a rug is not a blanket, and only occasionally something on the floor, but more often a portable piece of woollen (or similar) cloth, often with a squared-off pattern, and often with a fringe (which blankets don't have) carried about for use in picnics and other outdoor activities.  It may look like a blanket but is usually not as dense.  The distinction may be more in the outdoor use than in the manufacture.  --[[User:Martin Wyatt|Martin Wyatt]] ([[User talk:Martin Wyatt|talk]]) 23:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
::Yes, that makes perfect sense.  It was my MOTHER, who was not a trained Brit/'Merkin scholar, who told me that a rug meant a blanket. What are the blankets, somewhat like airline blankets (if those even still exist) that people used to put over their legs in carriages? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:::Well, apparently it *is* a "carriage-rug"!  See: https://www.wordnik.com/words/carriage-rug [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
::::Also called a "traveling rug". [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::Yes, portable rugs, typically with fringes, I'd forgotten about those. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::Gotta have the fringes! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)


I just looked at the website of Simpsons in the Strand for no particular reason and saw that on their menu have have a list of Starters, followed by a list of Mains. Us 'Merkins will sometimes use the word Starters on menus, but I've never seen the word Mains before. Main Courses, Entrees, or some such, yes, but not that solitary word by itself. I don't recall seeing it in London 40 years ago, but it could have been used I suppose. Progress has been made, however: I see that Simpsons now serves its Scotch salmon "starter" with capers and some other stuff. When I was there with my Tahitian wife we ordered the salmon and I asked for some capers. The waiter was baffled. Eventually he returned with an enormous dusty bottle and asked if that was what I meant.  Everyone in the restaurant was staring at us, hehe.... A true boulevardier, I said, Yes, that's it precisely. And we spooned capers out of the bottle to go with our salmon....
== Prams &c ==


By the way, I surprised to see that the online MW has pissoir, but it does.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Just to complicate things, ordinary British usage nowadays is to call a pushchair a buggy, short for the trade name BabyBuggy. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:30, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


: 'Mains' I have heureusement never heard in that context. Beware, it might catch on, what with quantiteez, Mumbai and Thai-land on Sky Newspeak in rapid succession today.
==no one says East Indian for Asian. ==
:That's good about 'capers' though, a word and food I first came across in Germany, I think.
I am in the USA. No one says East Indian. [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] ([[User talk:Tom Kelly|talk]]) 15:37, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
:Oxford has pissoir too, and nearby, piste and piolet - do we have those...? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 10:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
:I would say you're right on that. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
::We've got piste but not piolet. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
::Added by [[User:Peter Jackson]] on 21 November 2011. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 18:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


== I.N.I.T.I.A.L.S. ==
:::Well, what do they say? In American usage, as I understand it, Asian means East Asian. Here it means South Asian. So what do Americans call South Asians? I came across the term East Indian in a report on some politician, I think in one of the Western states. They probably said he was the first East Indian to hold a certain office or something like that. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 11:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


Is it true that Americans use 'U.K.' & Brits (I certainly do) 'UK'? - & if so, can one extrapolate from this? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
:::[http://www.everyculture.com/multi/A-Br/Asian-Indian-Americans.html] says they're often called Asian Indians. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
:That Americans, with their greater land mass, accumulated wealth, and larger population, are more expansive in all ways. They can afford to be profligate with their periods.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


::Truly a Land of Periods and Majuscules. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
:::The reference I mentioned above must be to Congressman Dalip Singh Saund, I think. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


:::Except that so many 'Merkin wimmin are runnin' marathons that periods are in danger of disappearing entirely.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 02:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Could be.  I dunno why he isn't being called Indian, though.  That horrible Bobby Jindal, late gov'r of Louisiana, is usually referred to as Indian-American, occasionally Asian-American.  Never, to my knowledge East Indian-American. I *think*, without doing any research, that 'Merkins use "Asian" to mean *anyone* from Japan, China, India, Southeast Asia, and Bangladesh. Pakistan?  Not sure. I know that if anyone said to *me*, "That lady is an East Indian," I would reply, "What does *that* mean?"  In WWII, of course, the Japanese built what *they* called "The Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," or at least that's how it's generally translated. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)


::::Well, [[colon]] has been pre-empted from the grammarians. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::From today's news, anent Obama's State of the Union Address: <blockquote>South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley says the nation should resist the temptation to "follow the siren call of the angriest voices" during anxious times.... The daughter of Indian immigrants is delivering the Republican response to President Barack Obama's State of the Union address.... Haley calls herself a "proud daughter of Indian immigrants" and says individuals willing to work hard and follow the law shouldn't feel unwelcome.</blockquote> [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 01:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


== Postvocalic r ==
::::::The references I found on internet search for the above Congressman suggest a variety of terms in use.
This is the most noticeable difference in English dialects and I think current text oversimplifies, saying it's just "British" vs, "US" English. I'd say the full list of +r dialects is Scots & Irish English, plus Canada & most of the US, heavily influenced by Scots & Irish immigration. -r includes (most? all?) of England, plus Oz, NZ, South Africa. What about Southern US, the "Boston brahmin" accent, Wales, and Indian English? I'd say those are all -r, but I'm not completely certain on any of them.


Anyone know the history? Since the r's are in the spelling, I imagine they fell out of the pronunciation sometime after spelling was standardised, but before the big bursts of immigration to places like Oz that got -r dialects. [[User:Sandy Harris|Sandy Harris]] 04:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::In some contexts the term "Asian" may well be used in a broad sense as you suggest. But, when the police issue a description of someone they'd "like to speak to", or a writer describes a character as "of Asian appearance", such broad meanings would be nonsensical. In such contexts Asian must mean East over there, South here.  
:Postvocalic ''r'' was disappearing in England long before the founding fathers made it to the New World (I think there may be one or two examples of ''r''-less spellings in Chaucer, or at least texts from his day). I suspect that it may have been retained in the spelling to indicate the historic pronunciation and also to allow distinctions between so-called 'short' and 'long' vowels (e.g. ''cad'' and ''card''). The reason ''r'' made it to America was that most of the early settlers were from the south-west of England, which retained ''r'' (and still does to this day). Later settlers came without ''r'' but their accents were overwhelmed by the well-established rhotic accent (except for a small group who, one story says, were blown off-course by a storm and ended up around what is now New York, I believe - which is why some north-eastern accents are non-rhotic). ''r'' may or may not have been reinforced in the US by later Irish/Scots etc. immigration, I'm not sure. Obviously, most settlers who headed to Australia much later carried with them the non-rhotic accent that by then had come to dominate England. Something like this could be added. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 05:37, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


This is only humble BrE & AmE, and it says the pronunciation discussion is limited to the two standard varieties. But there is a [[Commonwealth English]] stub, and you've given us the basis for [[English postvocalic r]] (or whatever) right here. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 13:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::I think we probably want to remove all these items from the main list and instead have a separate subsection alongside religion &c for ethnic groups. I'll make a start on that. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 18:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


== Demagog? ==
:::::::Good idea.  This is a can of worms.  And remember, what a policeman in Birmingham, England, is gonna call a person of interest is probably gonna be quite different from what a cop in Birmingham, Alabama is gonna call the very same person. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


I've always used (and seen) "demagogue," which is allegedly the British variant.  Maybe it would be better to list both "demagogue" and "demagog" for the American variants. With just "demagog," students are apt to think, incorrectly, that that spelling is the common "correct" American spelling, which it ain't. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
==Color commentator==
:I've swapped it for 'synagog'. Hopefully... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC) - Alas I should have looked in Merriam Webster: seems 'synagog' is merely an option also. Will alter... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I've just come across this as AmE equivalent of BrE summariser at a sports event on TV. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 17:59, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
:No 'Merkin, not even I, would understand what a "summariser" was.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
::A summarizer is usually someone who has played at a higher level than the commentators who give the "live" commentary, and inserts remarks when there's a bit of time to spare. Is that what the American term means? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 15:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
:::The guys (or girls) who describe the action that's going on are called either announcers or broadcasters or sportscasters. These people may or may not have actually played the sport that they are describing. In the old days of radio *some* of the announcers had once played the sport, but most of them had not and came to their jobs through a variety of ways. Vin Scully, for instance, who has been calling the Los Angeles Dodgers' games for 66(!) years now, had never been a baseball player. I think that *all* sports (in the States) now have their regular broadcasters AND what they call "color commentators" -- the later generally being former players who actually played at a fairly high level -- so that their names are recognizable to the people listening (or watching), and therefore carry a certain weight of expertise.  Chances are that the broadcasters actually have more expertise in the subject than the commentators, but who knows? If you asked Vin Scully, however, who his summarizer was, he would look at you blankly and scratch his head.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
::::The guys who call the action for the most part are sometimes called the "play-by-play" broadcasters -- they would probably do 75% of the actual talking during a match or game.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)


== You lot (or you guys) are doing a fab job on this.... ==
:::::It sounds from what you say as if both roles have different names. I admit I'm not much interested in sport as a whole, so my impressions based on Test Match Special may not apply to sports other than cricket. On TMS they have "commentators", who give the impression they've played at some level, but never (?) at test level. They give the main running commentary. The "summarizers", who are all former test players, add comments as convenient. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)


...but there's still so much more.
::::::Tennis has similar pairs, and football and golf too, I think---both called 'commentators', and the 'expert' probably also 'summariser', in British English. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 22:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC).


Y'know what I'd like to see?  A section on words and expressions where the user might think they understand exactly what is being said, but might be wrong due to misunderstanding the primary or first-to-pop-into-head use of the word in the other variant. That seems apparent enough when we talk about slang, but 'jumper', an article of clothing, describes two entirely different garments, a 'comforter', two different kinds of bedding.  Same with the verb 'to table' (in the context of meetings).  It's used exactly the same way and in the same context in both CE and AE, but usually means something quite different.
== Different ==


Also, is aluminum/aluminium correctly termed a spelling difference? Minor, I know, but it *is* pronounced differently.   
How about "different from" (BrE) v. "different than" (AmE)? Where would it go? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 16:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
:I think you're gonna find 'Merkins all over the map on this one. I think 'Merkins mostly just use both of them at complete random. But here's what the NYT ''Manual of Style and Usage'' says: You can't go wrong with ''different from''; you can, and almost always will, with ''different than''.  Whatever the hell '''that''' means! From Strunk & White: ''Different than''. Here logic supports established usage; one thing differs ''from'' another, hence ''different from''. Or, ''other than, unlike''.  Now I'll leave the rest up to you, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
::I think "different to" is quite common in practice in British usage, though more likely to be considered "incorrect"; "different than" is much less common over here, though there are cases where construction would be quite awkward without it. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
:::"Different to" is definitely NOT used in the States. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
::::In my GB youth we were taught to resist saying 'different to' and that 'different from' was correct; 'different than' was unknown. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 16:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
:::::Life and words are complicated. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
::::::I don't think that we should have an entry on the "different from-than" businessIt's clearly not a simple straightforward Brit/'Merkin divide. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)


[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 01:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
== -wards words ==


:A friend from Australia was quite surprised at what she was served when she ordered "chips and sauce" on her visit to the U.S. [[User:Raymond Arritt|Raymond Arritt]] 01:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
There's also 'inwards' and 'outwards', which, like 'forwards', lose the 's' also in BrE in compounds like 'outward-looking'. So the new section needs elaboration, but I'm not in the mood at present. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 21:54, 14 February 2016 (UTC)


::Having lived here off and on for 67 years, I can't believe that there's a waiter anywhere in the United States who wouldn't have said, "What's that?" if someone ordered "chips and sauce". Although *conceivably* a Mexican restaurant would bring their standard corn chips and salsa. So what *did* she get? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:48, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
== Onto ==


:::Tortilla chips and salsa. She was expecting what we'd call french fries and ketchup. [[User:Raymond Arritt|Raymond Arritt]] 03:06, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you'll find this is perfectly normal in British usage, with only Oxford refusing to recognize it. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
:I was surprised not to find it anywhere. Could you provide a ref, please, so I can put it in [[English spellings]] instead? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)


::::She musta been in a Mexican joint. (I was in one for lunch today -- I don't like either the chips or the salsa, though....) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Chambers 12th ed p 1075, near the end of the entry on "on"; gives the 2-word version as an also, which probably means substantially less common, though I can't find a statement to that effect. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
:Thanks, done. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 19:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC)


:::::In English caff (if you're lucky enough to get someone polite/condescending): Plate o' chips, love? Sauces are on the table, dear. (Bottles of Heinz tomato ketchup & HP Sauce on each table, along with a sugar dispenser.) [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 16:34, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
::Fowler's, second edition, has an anguished ''cri de coeur'' about "onto" and whether it exists or not. I remember reading this about 45 years ago and just checked the book -- he is still anguished 45 years later, hehe. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 01:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
::::::In Australia during the 1970s, if you ordered "chips" you would have received two actors pretending to be motorcycle cops... Okay seriously, if you ordered "chips" you would be served what most Americans would call French fries (with the exception that the chips here would be usually plumper and less crispier). That all changed somewhat when McDonalds started opening franchises here, so its usage became muddied. I believe back in the 1970s most Americans (bar Mexicans) would refer to "potato chips" as something we would call "crisps". Have I confused everyone already? :) {{UnsignedShort|Meg Ireland}}


:::::::Throughout history, ever since they were invented (supposedly by George Crum [he shoulda been a baker]), "crisps" have been known in 'Merkin culture and language as "potato chips." Period. That's all there is to it. It doesn't matter what decade it is or was. So it's not confusing at all. That said, there are now a gazillion *kinds* of "potato chips", such as kettle-cooked, light salt, buffalo-wings flavor, salt-and-pepper, Hawaiian style, you name it. But they are all crisps made from potatoes. There may be *other* things that resemble them, but they will be called, geez, I dunno, "turnip chips" or "plantain chips" or "sweet potato chips" or whatever it is they're made from.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
As an aside, Indian English seems to have created an analogous word "upto". [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC)


== "And two hardboiled eggs!" HONK! "Make that three hardboiled eggs!"==
Another aside. Fowler also mentions that words like "everyone", "someone" and "anyone" didn't exist in the 19th century. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)


According to Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_shy it's a Brit phrase. If you read the article, maybe it will give a clue as to what the 'Merkin phrase for it is. Off-hand, I can't think of it. I know that similar things exist at U.S. carnies, just they generally feature stuff like throwing baseballs in order to make people drop into a tank of water or something. I can't even think of the phrase for that, either.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
== The Law of Averages? ==


:Well, apparently Danny Kaye does it in a film, so sez WP. And is also says that 'cocoanuts' is an 'old spelling', so I checked in Merriam Webster and that gives only 'coconut', so alas... My Oxford gives both spellings for the tree, curiously. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC) - And MW does not give a definition for 'cocoanut', instead saying it can be found at MW abridged - must be X-rated version... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:13, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Am reading another [[Michael Gilbert]] novel, an old one from 1955 called '''The Country-House Burglar''' in the States and '''Sky High''' in the UK.  In it a Chief Constable is talking about a pre-war country-house burglar named Feder, "Outwardly a respectable average adjuster in the City.  And no nonsense. If you had an average to adjust, he'd adjust it for you."  I gotta say, I *think* this is the first time I've ever encountered this word. And, considering the source, and the context, it clearly isn't slang of some sort. So wot is it? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 15:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)


::I think this is a can of worms that we can safely ignore, which will save us time, energy, and grief. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:11, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
:Never come across it either, far as I recall. Chambers 12th: "an assessor employed by an insurance company in marine claims". Cf the same dictionary on one I have come across: "'''loss adjuster''' ''n'' an assessor employed by an insurance company, ''usu'' in fire damage claims." [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)


==Zero & nought==
::From the BIG OED, there are numerous uses going back a long time regarding shipping expenses etc., but the current meaning seems to be: "The expense or loss to owners, arising from damage at sea to the ship or cargo." And from the Merriam-Webster 2nd Unabridged of the 1930s, an Average Adjustor is: "''Admiralty law'': One whose profession is to adjust the several liabilities arising from general averages." '''Now''' do we understand, hehe? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm puzzled by Caesar's edit & comment 'zero more common that nought in UK'. That certainly wasn't the case when I grew up there. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC) - Anyway, I'll change them round, so the emphasis is on the contrast. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


:I saw his comment, but since I haven't been in England since '68 I simply don't know. And even then, I can't remember what people used to say (or write). I'm sure that people still say, "All for nought", even Merkins say that, without knowing, I would say, what Nought actually means. In your time, did telephone standardistes say, "The number you want is seven nought one six two nought nought?" And I've always thought of James Bond as being Oh Oh Seven, but I suppose he could have been Zero Zero Seven or even Nought Nought Seven, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
== Milk bars ==


I was last there in '94 (seems like 3 or 4 years ago...) so ditto. I suppose that phrase could be spelt 'all for naught'? The British telephone word was & surely still is 'O': seven O one six two double O. (I don't think there's a standardised spelling.) Bond is Double-O-Seven, but it must have been the ska record you heard called Oh Oh Seven - I have a copy, natch, or rather my mother's bungalow has... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:29, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
In the [[Michael Gilbert]] I'm reading a lady drops in at a London "milk bar" circa 1955. According to Our Competitor, milk bars exist in Poland and Australia, although they seem to be quite different from each other in those two countries. In the States, a "milk bar" is totally unknown, I would say. (Except for a ''Milky Way'' candy bar...) What were they in 1955 London, and do they still exist in the same form today? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 01:23, 26 June 2016 (UTC)


:Yeah, you're right, it's probably "all for naught". I've never head a ska in my life, thank goodness, although I dated a ska sax player twice about a year ago. I think that back in the days when maybe I heard Merkins talk about 007 they said Double-Oh and Oh-Oh interchangeably, although I could be wrong.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
:I vaguely remember around 1970 there was a place called The Milkmaid, which specialized in milk and milkshakes as its main drinks. Maybe that's the sort of thing, though they did food too. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:21, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


OK, yes, Oh-Oh too, not so common, but yes, come to think of it. I just vandalised a bit of your comment, forgot to hold down the key when pasting, but have done a repair job - plenty of experience at the other place! [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:54, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
== a couple more from Michael Gilbert's 1955 Sky High ==


::That's fer sure! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:10, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
1.) "Ahead showed a square of alders and brambles.  In the middle an affair of tumbled '''bucks''' and rotted timbers, stood the remains of a barn."  No clue, me, as to what a '''buck''' is.


Well, I don't claim to be an authority, but I hear zero more often than nought - I think nought is generally regarded as old fashioned.<br />
2.) "Don't tell me," he said, "that you've had a little man in a bowler hat hidden in the '''dickey'''. Extraordinary."  A dicky in earlier 'Murkin was, I think, a kind of collar or shirt for gentleman -- see one of the songs in ''Carousel''.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe the spellings naught and nought are interchangeable, both having both meanings.<br />
And yes, of course, there's oh - only used in ''speech'', in a sequence of numbers - you wouldn't tend to use it on its own. Never used in writing.<br />
I've never heard of cipher meaning zero. The Oxford American Dictionary says this meaning is dated...<br />
[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 14:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


:Perhaps we need to distinguish two meanings: the concept and the symbol. What we have now, I think, is the latter, as in: a quantity of zeroes or noughts (never, here, naughts) or ciphers (yes, 'ciphers' sounds dated to me) but not ohs, which are as you say, oral & only used in a sequence. I was thinking yesterday, perhaps we don't need this entry at all, as any American/British contrast is now vestigial. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 16:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
:2 I've always understood as a sort of bib standing in for a proper shirt, but maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


::Except for Drafts and Noughts or whatever weird Limey name youse guys uouse fer tic-tac-toe! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:47, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
:: From online M-W:<blockquote>plural '''dickeys''' or '''dickies''' 1 any of various articles of clothing: as a:  a man's separate or detachable shirtfront b:  a small fabric insert worn to fill in the neckline 2 chiefly British a:  the driver's seat in a carriage b:  a seat at the back of a carriage or automobile</blockquote> [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


:Ciphers and crucifixes, you mean? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 16:49, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
== something the cat drug in? ==


:: This entry is confusing unless one reads this discussion. Perhaps some explanation could be added. I heard mathematicians say "a-nought" for ''a''<sub>0</sub> (and "a-zero", but never "a-cipher"). However, even dated differences should be included (with explanation) because one will find them in (old) books, and maybe even in old movies. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:06, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Just finishing up ''The Country House Burglar''. The hero is crawling up the stairs in pursuit of the bad guy: "You got to it by a steep secondary staircase which was covered only by a thin '''drugget''' and had a most peculiar squeak." Drugs, anyone? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:36, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


== Some missing words ==
== more Brit talk from my next Michael Gilbert ==


I just discovered this nice page -- very useful for a non-native speaker who has learned (probably: Oxford) English in school and is reading books from both sides of the Atlantic, and sees more pictures from Hollywood than of British origin. I miss some differences I know about: billion, rather, o.k./all right, and the entry about "bill" is not clear enough:
I finished '''Sky High''' and am now slowly going through his 1966 '''The Crack in the Teacup''', about a young lawyer caught up in municipal corruption in a Channel resort town. So far here are the words that are unfamiliar to my 'Merkin ears:
Where does one ask for the bill and pays with a check, and where one asks for the check and pays with a bill? ;-)
<br>One more question: Shouldn't "See also" be moved to "Related articles"?
<br>[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 21:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


:While waiting for Noble Rheaux to reply, let me say that in the States one can ask the waiter for either the bill or the check. Check is probably more common but bill is frequently used. Bill is probably used more often for things like auto repairs, etc., where check is *never* used. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
page 28: " "and who's a '''jobbing''' builder" "


::Thanks for that explaination Hayford; I've always wondered about the exact usage of the US ''bill'' and ''check''.
page 29: " "Have I got a '''smut''' on my nose?" "
::In the UK, it is the bill which says what you must pay. You ask the waiter for the bill. If you asked for the check he wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. Then you ''might'' pay with a cheque (never check) or, more likely, with cash - ''notes'', which I believe the Americans call bills. Or a credit card, but that's the same in American.
::[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 22:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


:::the word "banknotes" is used sometimes in the States, but in fairly specialized senses, I think. "Notes", never. "Bills" always, in that "I paid the bill with a $20 bill." Or "I paid the check by check." The old system of checks and balances, I guess, hehe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
page 30: " "He '''blethered''' about the personal touch." " In the States we would say "blathered" -- could this be a typo?


::::Thanks for those, Peter, glad you like the page. I've made a couple of additions to vocab, hope bill & check are clear, if not we could add some footnotes. Check & cheque are in the spelling section already. Billion, well, the Murcans have won that one, as their system was always simpler, if less numerical, so trillion is now 1000,000,000,000 (four lots) in British too (right??). The old British word for 1000,000,000 was, I think, milliard, but that sounds like a ball game & was never in general use even in my youth. The other words are used on both sides of the Atlantic, more or less frequently, although 'alright' is considered by many to be incorrect. OK?/O.K.?/Okay? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
page 61: "a much older wall of '''knapped''' Sussex flint"


Well, I like this page because I am interested in language in general, and from the "outside" it is often not easy (or impossible) to distinguish betwen individual usage and regional differences. <br> It is interesting (and maybe important) to know that "billion" now differs from (german) "Billion" in BE tpp. But I think that such historical changes should be included in some way as well. Is okay and alright also a historical difference? I thought that when I learnt English, "okay" was considered to be AE. And with regards to "rather": I read that referees should be careful because phrases like "he is rather good" are interpreted drastically different in BE and in AE.
several pages: '''drains''' -- obviously used in the sense of what 'Merkins call '''sewers''' or '''sewage'''. If an American butler said to an Brit. livin' in the States, "Your lordship, the man is here about the drains," he would be referring to the drainpipes leading down from the gutters, *not* to the sewage pipes.... Or so I'm pretty sure.
<br>Some more (potential) candidates for the list: first floor, you know / isn't it (?), the comma in "A,B(,) or C", quid / smackers / greenback, "white metal" for silver without British hallmark. And what about differences in hyphenation?
<br>[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 08:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
<br>I forgot: lift/elevator. And how about film/movie/picture and cinema/film theatre(-er) -- are there differences in usage? And I just remember disc/disk. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 09:35, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


:I'm interested in what you are saying about ''billion'' - so far as I am aware, it now as the same meaning the world over - namely, the product of a thousand and a million; 10<sup>9</sup> or 1,000,000,000. I know it used, some time ago, to mean 10<sup>12</sup> in some countries including the UK, but this is now called a ''trillion''. Is there anywhere where a billion is still 10<sup>12</sup>?
page 70: " "Neither Jack nor I have had much time for '''canvassing'''." " Out politicking and seeking votes. There are 'Merkin words for it, but they escape me at the moment.
:''OK'' - were you referring to the word in general, or to the spelling okay rather than ok? I don't think either is considered to be American; both are commonly used in English.
:''Rather'' - we use it rather a lot in the UK, but I don't think it's used much in America or, for that matter, Australia or New Zealand. I don't know about Canada. I wasn't aware of any possible misinterpretations - what else can it mean?
:What are the issues with ''you know'' and ''isn't it''?
:''Greenback'' is another American word for paper money, isn't it - but can it be any note, or is it just one dollar notes or something? I can't remember whether all dollar notes are green or not. ''Quid'' - is it ever used outside the UK? Never heard ''smackers'' before. Nor have I heard of that usage of ''white metal''.
:''Lift'' is used exclusively in English, but everyone would understand if you said ''elevator'' to them.
:''Picture'' is very archaic, at least in English. You would watch a ''film'' or a ''video'' at home (possibly regardless of whether it was on a ''film''  or a ''DVD''). In the ''cinema'' you would watch a ''movie'' or ''film'', never ''video'', whilst on the web it would always be a ''video''. In the ''theatre'' you would watch a ''play'', not a ''film/movie/picture''...
:Disc/disk varies greatly within both English and American - Generally, the English is ''disk'' and the American is ''disc'', but according to the Oxford American Dictionary on my computer, specific usages are the same in both. Computer-related usages are almost always ''disk'' - ''floppy disk'', ''disk drive'', etc, - with the exception of ''compact disc''. The we have things like ''disc brakes'', which apparently always use the US spelling.
:The Oxford comma is controversial in English - some people such as myself almost always use it, whilst others steadfastly refuse to (sometimes resulting in rather ambiguous lists). Is it used in American?
:Hyphenation, again, varies greatly in English according to personal style. I think it's used less, in general, in American.
:[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 09:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


::At the moment, I don't have time to discuss all points. Maybe it is also better to wait for more comments (if any). However, in German there is still "Milliarde" and "Billion" (and "Billiarde", etc.), unless someone carelessly translates an English text. Concerning disc/disk: My Collins English Dictionary (of 1979) says: disk, variant spelling of disc, mainly US. And an elder friend from England who is very careful and British with his language calls "elevator" an American word. Finally, aren't there different rules how to hyphenate words in BE and AE? For instance, TeX has separate patterns for BE ("ukhyphen"). [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 10:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
page 86: "waiting for the '''dixie''' to boil" -- some sort of teakettle or camping utensil?
:::Also, donut (American) and doughnut (British). [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 10:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


::::I don't quite understand about million - what do these German words mean? Google tells me that milliarde means ''billion'' - so what does billion mean in German? And billiarde apparently means ''quadrillion'', which we don't tend to use in the UK.
page 89: " "If you two don't do what you're told, and quick, you'll be '''on bounds''' for a week." " There are a couple of 'Merkin phrases for this that I can't put my finger on. '''grounded''' is one, I think.
::::''Disk'' - interesting; the exact reverse of what my Oxford American Dictionary seems to be saying. Hmm...
::::Certainly, ''elevator'' is American and not English. As I said, nobody would ever use it in English. But we would understand it.
::::I don't know what "rules" there are about hyphens, but in the UK they vary greatly according to personal style. My mother, for example, hyphenates all sorts of words which I would never dream of putting a hyphen in. I think the Americans hardly use the hyphen. I recall a quote from ''Eats, shoots and leaves'' - where an American author apparently wrote that "the hyphen is the most un-American thing ever". Note the hyphen in un-American...
::::[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 10:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


::::: First, to answer the question: Billion = 10^12, Trillion = 10^18, Quadrillion = 10^24, (and so on), while Milliarde = 10^9, Billiarde = 10^15, Trilliarde = 10^21, etc.
page 101: "Grand Avenue joined the Marine '''Parade''' at a point opposite the Municipal Bandstand...." '''Esplanade''' or some such?
::::: Second, are we talking about the same meaning of hyphenation? I meant hyphenation as it occurs at the end of line, not whether or not to write e-mail or email.
::::: Third, concerning rather: I recall that it was pointed that sentences like "The candidate is rather good" are interpreted as a positive evaluation in one case (it was BE, I think), while it is considered to have a negative connotation in the other case.
::::: And concerning elevators: I do not doubt that "elevator" is understood in Britain (and "lift" in US), but the page is also about differences in usage.
::::: [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 13:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


:So in German you still use the definition of ''billion'' which we used to use in the UK. Interesting.
page 103: "and three battered wooden '''settles''' round a table...."  Chairs?  Stools? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
:No, I wasn't talking about using hyphens to split words at the end of lines. I don't know of any differences in that usage between English and American, but that doesn't mean there aren't any...
:''Rather'' - yes, in English that would certainly be positive. I wasn't aware that it would be negative in American - how odd!
:''Elevator'' - yes, I was just remarking on the fact because a lot of Americanisms are hardly understood, or not understood at all, in the UK, whilst we would have no hesitation about elevator.
:[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 17:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


(unindent) '''Donut''' is simply a stoopid Americanism that merchants invented to make the word "doughnut" shorter for their neon signs and painted signs. Like "nite" for "night". Or to stand out. Whatever the case, it is informal, and incorrect. It is NOT an Americanism that is used in place of the fastidious British doughnut as "elevator" is used in place of "lift". Speaking of which, did Rheaux take care of ground floor, first floor, rez de chaussee and all of that business earlier on? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:27, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:A "jobbing builder", I vaguely assume, is a self-employed contractor hired for particular jobs.
::No one in the States would know what you meant if you used this term.
:I think "smut" in this sense is still fairly common.
::I guess that it's a piece of dirt, or soot, that drifts out of the sky, but in the States it's really only used, if at all, to describe "dirty" pix or literature.  And even that has probably vanished.
:I've heard "blethered" fairly often, though I see typing this that the (apparently American) system red-lines it. Might be regional, though.
::Yes, that's probably the case.
:Flint-knapping is something they did in the Stone Age.
::Ah, an anthropologist would know what it meant.
:Surprised you haven't come across "canvassing"; it's standard WP terminology, so I vaguely assumed it was standard over there too.
::Yes, I did a little research and it IS used here.  But not as common as in Blighty.
:Don't recall "dixie", though your guess sounds plausible. Cf. Australian "billy".
::Once again, could be regional.  Or a word from Gilbert's youth.  But he DID keep up with things....
:Haven't come across "on bounds". Various terms are used in different contexts: "grounded", "confined to barracks" &c. Is this quotation in the context of a public (private) school?
::Sort of, but really a gang of disreputable teenagers going to create trouble in a seaside resort.  The older ones are telling the younger ones to begone while they talk about sex....
:"Parade" in the context you give sounds almost like a proper name. I suspect such usages are local.
::It's definitely a proper name in this book.
:I've come across "settle" occasionally, including I think American sources, but it's not common. It seems to mean something not much different from "settee" or "sofa", but I'm only guessing that. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:55, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
::Okie, that makes sense. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 02:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


:No, I haven't done those. Ground floor is unAmerican, right? Donut, etc., I have now put in [[English spellings]], with dire warnings. 'Rather' is a complex word, 'rather good' means 'agreeably better than expected', for example, but I don't think any of that's a US/UK thing. Quid is certainly British, but then so is the concept (although I believe 'pennies' are informally cents, including the ones 'from heaven'). The comma before 'and' is another individual thing (I vote against). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Chambers says "blether" is Scottish, "blather" is American and dialect. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)


::Merkins say, "I got in on the ground floor," to mean that they invested in, or got into, something at its very inception. In other words, a generally favorable thing. Aside from that they *very* seldom use it except, I suppose, to say, "the baker's shop is on the ground floor of the building." But they would generally say "the first floor." A Merkin's "second floor" is everyone else's "first floor." That completely baffled me as a student studying French, but I finally got the concept after a couple of years....
::::Hmmm, I don't think of "blather" as being dialect.  (It can be either a noun or a verb, by the way.) Maybe it started ''out'' as regional?  I'll do some checking.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:21, 23 July 2016 (UTC)


::As for commas, we discussed this elsewhere once. The comma before "and" is called "the Oxford comma," "the Harvard comma," or "the serial comma." I myself would cut off my left hand before *not* using it. Some style manuals recommend it, others don't. As long as I don't see an article here in CZ marked BE and not using it, I will continue to insert it, ie, in all AE articles. It's probably a little more frequently used in Merkin than Brit-write. Although even here it is on the wan, I think. I believe the NYT *used* to use it, now they don't. Grrrrrrrrrr, I'll cancel my subscription! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::Just checked my 1940 M-W Unabridged for "blather". Doesn't say anywhere that is a dialect word. And says it's the same as "blether". [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 20:13, 23 July 2016 (UTC)


:Both candidates for the usage section, then... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
::::::MW is rather careless about British usage. E.g. it just says "metre" is a British variant for "meter", without mentioning that there are 2 different words spelt that way in America but distinguished over here.
::::::When Chambers talks of dialect, it means dialects within England, I think. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 15:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)


::Interesting; I didn't think the Oxford comma was used in American. I'm glad to hear it is. I feel the same as Hayford about it. I'd never heard it called the Harvard comma, though!
:::::::Yes, that's likely. I can't put my finger on an example right now, but the big M-W, and to a lesser degree the Collegiate one, do label some words as dialect, but I can't remember if they specify Brit. or Amer. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 15:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
::If you're going to insert it in en-US articles you should do so in en-GB too; it is just a matter of style here too. CZ should probably decide on one style and stick to it.
::''First floor'' - does ''anyone'' other than the Americans use it the American way? Frankly, the American way does make more sense from many points of view...
::''Rather'' - but Perter said that in the US it would be negative rather than positive, implying that Ro's example would mean disagreeably worse than expected to an American - Hayford or another American, is this so?
::[[User:Caesar Schinas|Caesar Schinas]] 07:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


:::Just Googled: 322,000 for Oxford comma, 2,400 for Harvard comma, 47,700 for serial comma. So Oxford it is. I've never heard anyone actually use these terms in speech -- I had to look them all up a year ago when this same discussion came up. I think that if you *said* "serial comma," an educated person would probably figure out what you meant. If you said the other two, he'd just scratch his head.
::::::::I'm not sure where this should go in the article: it's not really a vocabulary difference, because they're obviously the same word; but it's nor really spelling, because there's a different pronunciation; and vice versa. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


:::"Rather". A head-scratcher. A lot of it depends on tone and inflection, I think. If you say, "That was a rather good hamburger," I don't *think* that's quite as positive as simply saying, "That was a good hamburger." But if you say, "Oh, that hamburger was really rather good!", that's pretty positive. I don't think it's actually used all that much, however. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::The vocabulary table has variants, like aero/airplane and afterward(s), so I'd put it in there. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


::::Since there is some discussion about it -- I expected that native speakers would have no problem to decide upon it -- I want to explain in more detail why I brought it up: I read (or heard?) about advise for referees that they should be careful with the word "rather" when they are writing some report because what they write is likely to interpreted other (opposite meaning) than intended on the other side of the Atlantic. (If I could remember the source I would be happy to cite it.) [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
== Rutabaga/swede/turnip ==


:::::It could very well be, I just don't know. I'd be happy to see some concrete examples, however. One word that *does* have opposite meanings, however, is the verb "table".  In England, if you say, "The committee tabled the motion," it means that they put it on the table in order to discuss it. In the States, if you say exactly the same thing, it means that they TOOK IT OFF THE TABLE, so that it could NOT be discussed! Or is it the other way around? Very, very strange, in any case! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
According to both Chambers and Merriam-Webster (i.e. both sides of the pond), there are 2 species commonly called turnips: 1 of them is also known as swedes in Britain and rutabagas in America; the other seems to have no name of its own. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 14:42, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
:I thought that we had discussed this years ago.  If not, this is a FOOL'S ERRAND. Even in the States there is absolute chaos in determining what a turnip is as opposed to a rutabaga. It depends on what part of the country you live in.  In New England, where I grew up, it's completely the opposite from California, to which I moved as a teenager.  Hopeless.  "Swedes" MAY exist in some parts of the country as fodder that is fed to animals.... I don't think they are ever considered human fare.... In any case, I don't like ANY of them, hehe. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 01:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


== Two questions about usage ==
::We may well have done. There doesn't seem to be one of those panels giving links to archives of this page, like the ones they have in WP. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


It is slightly off topic, but I have two questions concerning the usage of common mathematical terms.
:::Strange. I thought that there *used* to be links. Maybe something that got lost when we switched servers?  Maybe John Stevenson would know? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 18:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
They can be found in [[Talk:Platonic solid]] and [[Talk:Greatest common divisor#highest common factor?]].
I ask them here, too, because they might go unnoticed. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:52, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


== A candidate ==
== Chinese Checkers ==


A remark of an American speaker suggests "cookie" vs. "biscuit" as a candidate for inclusion. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:04, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
is the spelling of Booker T.'s tune (checked on YouTube). Would this be a specifically American variant? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 17:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
:Apparently, yes. In UK it is Chinese chequers, or so I believe. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


:A shocking omission. Possibly we discussed it & couldn't agree on something...? Anyway, I'll put it in... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
::WP article on it cites ''Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary'' for the British spelling. In any case it's not called "Chinese draughts". In fact, again according to WP, it's neither Chinese nor a form of draughts/checkers, but a German adaptation of the American game halma. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:52, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


::Yeah, I'm *sure* that we hashed that one over at some point a long time ago.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:56, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Halma, I used to play that in Germany! Thanks for replies; I'll put the variant in. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 14:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


:::Do British browsers accept biscuits? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 00:14, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
== Navvies in the Navy? ==


== the barmaid in the honky-tonk downstairs ==
I don't THINK any 'Merkin would know what you wuz talkin' about if you said a "heavy laborer" wuz a "navvy".  I see the term in Brit. thrillers, however, from time to time.... "Laborer" would probably be the 'Merkin equivalent, although there may be others.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 05:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


there's a superb old [[George Jones]] song from about 45 years ago called ''The Honky Tonk Downstairs'' at http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/h/honkytonkdownstairs.shtml but it's probably one of those words that has disappeared from the 'Merkin language, at least in Beverly Hills and other PC spots. Whether people still use it in East Texas buckets o'blood, I dunno.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 05:55, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
:They were originally the (mostly Irish) workers on the navigation canals, whence the name. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:38, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


:There are proudly self-identified honkytonks in otherwise metrosexual Dallas. Maybe they were in a suburb. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
::Makes sense. Probably were called that also in the early days of the Erie Canal.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


== Cooks and cookery ==
== Queue ==


I have a very nice book of recipes and pretty photos that someone gave me about 20 years ago called "The Harrod's Cookery Book." Is Harrods being affected, old-fashioned, or pretentious, or do my British cousins actually call "cookbooks" (one word) "cookery books" (two words)? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
is sometimes used to mean a pigtail or something similar. I've only ever come across this in American sources, but is it in fact an American usage? The dictionaries I've tried say archaic, but the sources I've seen are fairly recent. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 13:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
:It's ancient.  Might be talking about Chinese men's pigtails 100 years or so ago. No one today unless they're my age or a scholar would know what the hell was being talked about.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 03:38, 20 October 2016 (UTC)


:Gor blimey, them 'Arrods. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
== Sassy & cheeky ==


:: This [[Talk:English_breakfast#Some_questions_for_truly_English_citizens|remark]] could point out another entry (porridge). [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 13:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Do Americans say 'cheeky'? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 22:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
:I really don't think so.  But I don't think sassy is used much anymore, either. What the alternatives are, I can't think of at the moment. But I'll give it some thought.... Insolent?  But that's formal.  Maybe some words revolving around "dis"? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 03:07, 5 November 2016 (UTC)


== Quotes ==
== Insurance ==


From Hayford's corrections I see that the usage of quotes is different in BE and AE (something I was not yet aware of). This should be included here.
In Britain, when an insurance contract specifies that you pay the first so much and the company pays the rest up to a limit, that first amount is called an excess (charge). From something I heard on the BBC this morning it sounds like it's called deductible in America. The rather confused explanation in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductible a Wikipedia article] seems to confirm this. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
<br>
:Yes, it's always called a deductible. There may be excess verbiage at some point to explain PRECISELY what this means in relation to your own policy (since the companies are always trying to minimize what it INITIALLY looks like you'll have to pay out of your own pocket), but it always boils down to "deductible". With all of my familiarity with British terminology, if you told me that my insurance policy had an excess on it, I really would NOT have known what you meant. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 22:43, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
A question on quite another topic: Where is the meaning of the accents (which denote pronunciation) explained?
I know the IPA characters, but not this notation.
<br> [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
:The accents are referenced at the beginning of the Suffixes section, where they first appear. [[English spellings]] has a table, which could be copied here.


:Hayford I think regards single inverted commas as especially British, but I was brought up in England with both double and single, although in primary school it was always double. Later I read that it's a matter for publishers. A similar case is -ise, more common in BrE, and -ize, ditto AmE -but again, not, it seems, exclusively. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 23:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
== ring roads and beltways ==


::99% of all Brit novels that I own (and I used to have a ton of them), always used single quotesWhat the practise (note, hehe) is today, I dunnoI do know this for an absolute fact: in the States, single quotes are never used in that way. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
I think that both terms are used in the States, along with loop and various other words. The Beltway in Washington,which has officially been given that name, has popularized it, of course, but it is by no means universalI remember a long time ago, when a lot of the country's fledgling electronic industry was on Route 128 around Boston, THAT was called a ring road, certainly not a beltway.... I have a feeling this may be one of those cases of "a distinction without a difference"Could be wrong, too, of course.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 23:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)


::: I overlooked the link to spellings or, rather, did not notice its significance (a clear hint that it leads to the explanation of the notation would be helpful). Concerning quotes: You native speakers (Hayford and you?) will have to sort out whether this should be mentioned (and how). I would think it should because it is considered a difference by some. <br> Another topic: Ro, you are obviously monitoring this. So I suppose you overlooked my pointer/question left just above this section. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
== Negligence and Malpractice ==


::::An edit conflict, but never mind...I put in a bit in italics at the top. Will that do? By all means put in something about the quotes. As for porridge, what had you in mind? I'm not one for breakfast myself... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
"If you sue a doctor for not doing their job with due care and attention, this is usually called '''negligence''' in England and '''malpractice''' in America." -- I don't think this parses correctly -- you're saying that the act of SUING is the negligence or malpractice. Think it needs to be reworded....[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)


== Europe ==
:Yes, I think it could be clearer. Maybe I'll think of something. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 15:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


Does the British use of "Europe" for the continent merit an entry?
::How about: '''When doctors are sued for not doing their job with due care and attention, it is because they are usually being accused of '''negligence''' in England and '''malpractice''' in America.''' [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


A delayed answer :-( With the link to breakfast I wanted to point to: <br>
:::That makes the sentence construction clearer, but obscures the point that the distinction is linguistic, though that might be considered obvious from the context. How about changing the second part of your sentence to "what they are accused of is usually called ...", or something like that? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
"Porridge is known in North America as oatmeal. To a Briton, eating oatmeal would mean eating the uncooked raw ingredient."


[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
== Hire cars &c ==


== lemme (caution) remind you about remand ==
Ordinary British usage distinguishes between a taxi, which you can flag down in the street, and a private hire car, which you have to order. Dictionaries don't seem to have noticed this. I don't know what we call a car you hire to drive yourself. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 12:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
:I think a hire car. At least I just got an email from my Aussie son-in-law, a well-educated chap, who said that he was going to drive his hire car from Paris to St. Nazaire....[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
::What about rental (or rented) car? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 10:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)


I think that only my good friends the Brits use "remand" to mean "we'll send you back to jail (gaol) for 15 days while the tweedy inspector continues his inquiries."  It is NOT, I gather, the same as "to sentence," ie, "I sentence you to three years in gaol."  I don't *believe* that 'Merkins use "remand" this way; a judge here would say, "I'm returning you to jail for 15 days while we wait for the municipal torturer to show up to work." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
== three more from a 1956 (circa) Michael Gilbert story ==
:Quite so. So do Americans use 'remand' at all? When I was a kid, people were always being 'remanded in custardy', which sounded very messy. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:29, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


::Have any of you people ever tried looking up merkin in a good dictionary? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 16:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The Brits use '''bedsitting, bed-sitter, bedsitter''', etc, and the 'Merkins simply don't. My big old MW unabridged calls it ''Engl.'' and says it's an apartment that combines a bedroom and a sitting room. I really can't think of an American equivalent, although it must exist. The same story also speaks of the '''letting plan''', and the '''letting agent''' -- this would be "leasing" in the States. And it contains the phrase "difficult to mark him to earth", which was new to me. We say "run to earth, and I thought the Brits did too....[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 19:51, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
:Yes, a bedsit, as it's often shortened to, is a one-room flat. And yes, 'run to earth' is what I'd say; never heard the 'mark' phrase. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 18:48, 1 January 2017 (UTC)


:::Quite so, my dear chap, I too grew up thinking that "remanded-in-custody" was one word, hehe.  As to "merkin", A.) That's how Lyndon B. Johnson used to address "My fellow 'Merkins"; and B.) That's the name of the Peter Sellars presidential character in "Dr. Strangelove", Merkin Muffley.  Look up Muffley -- it means the same as Merkin.  I think that the manufacturers of them have gone the way of the buggy-whip manufacturers, however.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
== Word of Mouth ==


:Where does Muffley mean the same as Merkin? [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Latest episode of this series was specifically on this subject. Here are a few things they said:


:::I wuz wrong -- that was something that I read *years* ago, and I never bothered to check it.  Just did, with the complete OED -- says "muffley" is an old variant of "muffler": no sexual connotations over 500 years for "muffler". I guess that because "muff", at least in Merkin English, can mean a lady's pubic hair, whoever wrote the script for "Dr. Strangelove" (Terry Southern?) conflated the two.  And a Website I just checked said that the "Muffley" in this case suggested that President Peter Sellars was a "pussy".... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:41, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
#"vetting" was virtually unknown in America before 2008;
#"fortnight" is not used there;
#Webster deliberately rejected "aristocratic French" spellings like "honour" and "centre".


::::Are you thinking of Mrs Slocombe's cat? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 04:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I should add that MW 2003 doesn't seem to support 1 and 2. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


:::::For the non-native speakers reading this discussion:
:I think that "vetting" was known by the "elites" but not much used. It certainly wasn't used as commonly as it is today. "Fortnight" is similar in that I think most educated people "knew" what it meant (or still do) but certainly never use it. I don't think that in all my life any American, no matter how well-educated or how great an Anglophile, has ever used "fortnight" in talking to me. As for #3, that *may* be. I thought that around the time of Teddy Roosevelt spelling reforms were made with a number of words, changing "theatre" to "theater", for instance. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 17:10, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
::::::'''merkin'''/'mə:rkɪn/ '''noun''' an artificial covering of hair for the pubic area.  
::::::'''muffley'''/ no entry
::::::'''muff'''/noun/ '''2''' ''vulgar slang'' a woman's genitals
:::::''Source:'' Oxford New Dictionary of English (1998). --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 09:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


To return to the original topic, you can be remanded on bail instead of in custody. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 11:45, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
== Parliamentarian ==


== Trapezoid  ==
See [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:2017_Venezuelan_constitutional_crisis&diff=773714015&oldid=773692652]. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 08:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
:Yes, whoever made that comment is absolutely right. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 15:04, 4 April 2017 (UTC)


My Collins dictionary claims: trapezoid (a bone in the wrist) = U.S. trapezium. [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 20:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
== Biscuits/cookies ==
:Oxford: trapezium, gb, 4 sides, 2 parallel, us = trapezoid. trapezoid, gb, 4 sides, 0 parallel, us = trapezium. then look in wikipedia, bones, eureka...and get REALLY confused... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:52, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


:: I was careless and only read "trapezoid U.S. trapezium". A more careful look showed that there are '''two''' different bones but - what is really weird - that the '''geometrical''' meaning is said to be exchanged in BE and AE.
Do Americans ever talk of "dog cookies"? [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 13:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
:They probably do these days, in which there are so many specialty items for dogs. But it they do, they're probably referring to what would be more like real *human* cookies than what are generally called dog biscuits. In other words, they aren't using the word cookie to replace the word biscuit. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:17, 9 April 2017 (UTC)


[Collins 1979]
== to tick someone off ==
trapezium 1. Chiefly Brit. quadrilateral having to parallel sides of unequal length
              Usual U.S. name: trapezoid
          2. Now chiefly U.S. a quadrilateral having neither pair of two sides parallel
          3. a small bone of the wrist near the base of the thumb
trapezoid 1. a quadrilateral having neither pair of two sides parallel
          2. the usual U.S. name for trapezium
          3. a small bone of the wrist near the base of the index finger


:: My older English-German, German-English dictionary is rather imprecise:
I've seen the phrase from time to time in Evelyn Waugh's military novels and always thought that it was almost like sending him a rocket or whatever the exact phrase is. Apparently, from what you say, it's much milder than getting a rocket. Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:45, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
  [Cassels 12th edition 1968, printed 1976]
:Welcome! [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] ([[User talk:Ro Thorpe|talk]]) 02:43, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Trapez    trapezoid, trapezium (math)
Trapezoid  quadrilateral (geom)
trapezium  Trapez
trapezoid  Trapezoid
:: By the way, what is more common -- quadrilateral or quadrangle?
:: [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 11:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)


:::The normal mathematical usage is quadrilateral, unless you want to stress that you're looking at things from the point of view of angles rather than sides. A quadrangle usually means a courtyard. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 14:31, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
== Niche ==


== Request for translation ==
In my experience this is always pronounced neesh in Britain nowadays, but it seems from various sources that Americans generally stick with the old pronunciation nitch. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 14:35, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
:Or nish as in fish. I don't THINK that I've heard 'Murkins say nitch, but I could easily be mis-hearing, there's not much of a difference there.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 14:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
::I'm looking at my 11th Edition (print) of the M-W Collegiate and it shows "nich ''also'' nēsh ''or'' nish" -- so your guess is as good as mine. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 21:01, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


What's American for 'Act of Parliament'? Congressional Act? Sounds too sexy. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I came across this long ago in Asimov's short story "A loint of paw", which seemed to expect this pronunciation. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 14:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


:Act of Congress, as far as I know. Just did a Bing on "by act of congress" and got 54,400,000 hits, hehe, so I assume that that's the actual case.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:50, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
== Interjections ==


Gee, thanks, Officer Peirce. I thought of it as soon as I'd typed those tildoes... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 01:56, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
My impressions:


:Formally, once the Congress passes it, it is a Public Law, numbered for the particular session that passes it. For retrieval purposes, it then becomes a section of United States Code. There are other terms for things that have only passed the Senate or the House; I won't get into specialized things such as Continuing Resolutions. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 23:21, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
#Hey in American can mean Hello/Hi; in Britain it can only mean Oi or Ahoy.
#Eh in American can mean Er; in Britain it can only mean You what?


== font vs. fount ==
[[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)


My Collins says: font (mainly US), other word for fount. Can you confirm this? [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 15:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
== Roads ==


== music ==
I've never heard of a metalled road either, but if it is a British term it'll be so spelt, with a double ll. We certainly could talk of a paved road here, but that would mean paved with stone, not metal. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 14:27, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


I recently discovered that the US use completely different names for their notes[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_value Here is a wiki table] that outlines the whole set of differences. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:55, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
:I'll add a second L to the word. I dunno why Kennedy used the word -- he's a well-known British historian who also holds a post at Yale. He ought to know what he's doing.... In any case, here is what a little research shows: <blockquote>Why are tarmaced roads called metalled roads? Best Answer: Metal or metalling has had two distinct usages in road paving. Metalling originally referred to the process of creating a carefully engineered gravel roadway. The route of the roadway first would be dug down several feet. Depending on local conditions, French drains may or may not have been added. Next, large stone was placed and compacted, followed by successive layers of smaller stone, until the road surface was a small stone compacted into a hard, durable surface. Road metal later became the name of stone chippings mixed with tar to form the road surfacing material tarmac. A road of such material was called a "metalled road" in British usage, although this would be very rare in modern usage. It would be more common to refer to a macadam road. The word metal is derived from the Latin metallum, which means both "mine" and "quarry", hence the roadbuilding terminology.[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] ([[User talk:Hayford Peirce|talk]]) 16:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)</blockquote>


:How strange that the American ones actually make a lot more sense than the incomprehensible British ones.  I wonder if the Brit ones weren't put there by a typical WP vandal? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
An aside that reminds me of: it's been said that the word "tarmacadamization" (admittedly rare) illustrates the nature of the English language:


::So you have never heard of a crotchets, minims and quavers? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
*"tar" is Anglo-Saxon
:::My apologies Ro, I just discovered there is a section on [[British_and_American_English#Musical_notes|Musical notes]].  I only looked through the table. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
*"mac" is Celtic
*"adam" is Hebrew
*"iz(e)" is Greek
*"ation" is Latin


==Date==
[[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter Jackson|talk]]) 09:11, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
The idea that one way round is exclusively British and the other is exclusively American is recent and untrue (or am I wrong?), although there are some powerful people who, it seems, would like us to believe in the distinction. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
:DD/MM/YYYY system is used in Australia and New Zealand, so it's not just the British that use it. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 22:34, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
::Dunno, Ro.  I always thought it was more a matter of Style Manuals than of strictly national standards. Although I'm sure that our pal Napoleon the Disentimed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Disentimed) probably imposed a standard system across Europe when he wasn't busy breaking eggs to make omelets or inventing the indoor flush toilet and Champagne.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::I think some British newspapers write mdy. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 17:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 
==Disc and disk==
Should these be included? My assumption as a BrEng speaker was that 'disk' is for magnetic storage media and 'disc' is for everything else, including optical media. I get the impression that 'disk' is more widespread in American English, though. By the way, we now have an article called [[Digital versatile disk]]. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 04:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Yes, 'disk' always felt American to me, but apparently it is more complicated than that. [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disk Wiktionary] has an interesting entry. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:00, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::I think "compact disc" must be a registered trade mark. Have a look at the logo on the casing of one. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 17:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 
==Skive and slack off==
Like this better; I don't think there's a term "skive" in American English, but it's there in [[skive]]. It's also a verb I think, skivving. Cool word. Also I didn't check if it's there, but "pissed" in Australian English I think means drunk, while "pissed" in American English means angry like pissed off. Also I didn't check but the word "buggered" -- I think I heard Hugh Grant saying this in a movie, but I don't know what it meant.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 01:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 
:Literally it means 'sodomised' but it's used like this: 'buggered if I know', meaning 'I haven't a clue', or 'well, I'll be buggered', meaning, 'I'm very surprised'. Both that & 'pissed' are slang, of course, and I think it was agreed to leave slang out of this section. However, elsewhere... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:16, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::Just FYI, all these are Commonwealth English in general, Tom, not just Australian, but as Ro says, all are slang.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 22:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 
==Bringing up children, as opposed to food==
Americans both raise and bring up children.  (''Bringing up Baby, Buddy, Buster,'' etc.) Probably the edge goes to 'raise' in speech, though this may be regional.  I changed.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 22:46, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 
== Crayfish ==
 
(BE) ... and crawfish (AE)? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 
:Or crawdad (Louisiana English). [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 
::Total confusion about crayfish and crawfish, Peter, they're basically interchangeable, at least in the States. In Loo-zee-anna, where they come from, they're 99% crawfish, with some crawdads thrown in, along with some "mud bugs".... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 
== Grain-ularity of spelt?? ==
 
Is spelt wheat spelt as such in Britain, or do you bake with spelled? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]]
 
==No worries mate==
I heard this phrase in New Zealand a lot; is it big in Britain too? It means (I think) don't worry about it, no big woof, etc.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 23:32, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:No, it's not common here. Yet. It's standard Australian. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 10:34, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 
::Other kiwi speak. "Flat white" = type of coffee. "motorway" = US "highway" or "thruway" or "tollroad" or "interstate". When roads are icy, they're called (in NZ) "frosty". "Bars" (US) are called "pubs". Lawyers are called barristers or solicitors. I believe the traffic circles (US) are called roundabouts. --[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 18:51, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Roundabouts, barristers, solicitors (and lawyers), pubs, motorway are all standard British. Frosty, too, though usually figurative, a frosty reception. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
::::Roundabouts are called traffic circles too. Both words could be used to describe the same thing. We have parkways, freeways and highways. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 02:37, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
:::::We also have driveways. One parks in a driveway and drives in a parkway.  In New England, one also has rotaries, which have slightly different rules then traffic circles; my terror at roundabouts was such that I really can't say if a rotary and roundabout are close, just with different directions of rotation. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 04:01, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
::::::Buildings should really be called builts. I'm emailing Webster about this.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 15:45, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::Here, "highway" seems to be mainly a legal or formal term for all public roads, however minor ("the Queen's highway"). [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 10:10, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 
(Unindent) Great old Brit song sung by Joan Baez (and then many others):
 
Well I'm a rake and ramblin' boy. <br/>
There's many a city I did enjoy,<br/>
And now I've married me a pretty little wife <br/>
and I love her dearer than I love my life. <br/>
Oh, she was pretty, both neat and gay<br/>
caused me to rob the broad highway<br/>
Oh, yes, I robbed it, I do declare. <br/>
And I got myself ten thousand there.<br/>
[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 
== ? ==
 
Removed from punctuation section:
 
American English: The tip material in modern fountain pens is still conventionally called "iridium," although there is seldom any iridium in it.
 
British English: The tip material in modern fountain pens is still conventionally called "iridium", although there is seldom any iridium in it.
 
Both British and American: "Today: iridium," the teacher announced.
 
[[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 10:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 
:Yes, the pen sentence is too long and so the point is obscured---though it ''is'' visible. Needs shortening, and the difference highlighting in bold. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 15:44, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
:Done. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 16:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 
== CV ==
 
Nope, Curriculum Vitae in AE is Curriculum Vitae.  People who have resumes in the U.S. generally don't have CVs and those of us who have CVs also have resumes.  On the other hand, is this table suggesting that what we call a CV in the U.S. the British call a resume?  I can't imagine a plumber going around peddling his CV looking for work; but then again, I'd expect a British plumber to be a lot more educated than a U.S. plumber, so maybe he would have a CV.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 16:47, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 
:I *think* that CV (or its longer term) is only used in the States in the realms of Academe.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
::My point exactly, which means that CV doesn't translate as resume.  Unless, I'm to understand the British academics have "resumes." [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 17:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 
:::I've put in a footnote, which I hope covers it. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 00:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 
== what about leaped and leapt ==
 
Sometims I use one in my fiction writing, sometimes the other, depending one which one sounds best to me at the time. A copyeditor on my first novel wanted to changed a leapt to leaped because I had used leaped earlier, but I refused to let her do so.  Is there a creeped to go with crept?  Is leapt more Brit than 'Merkin?  I would say so offhand, but really dunno.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:33, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
:There are a number of verbs like this (spell, learn, though not creep, indeed). The regular form is more common in American, but as you can see at [[English irregular verbs]] I was relucant to be more specific. I might rewrite a little there. I've always used the irregular forms, and have only recently become aware how often the regular ones are used (as e.g. in Wikipedia). [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 20:26, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
::My humble vote is for leapt as in crept. I also like burgled as in burglarizing but that's not used much any more. Sorry for butting in :-) but I couldn't resist. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 20:40, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
== Two missing entries ==
 
What about "special(i)ty"? And "judg(e)ment"? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 21:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
:There was a long discussion somewhere else, I forget where, quite recently about "judgement" vs. "judgment".  It's complex.  As far as "speciality" is concerned, I must confess that I've never seen it that way outside of, say, ''la spécialité de la maison'', which, of course, is not quite the same thing. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:02, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
::From [[English spellings]]: júdgment (AmE and BrE, preferred in legal contexts in British) = júdgement (chiefly British). I'd forgotten that. But I'm surprised about Hayford's remarks on the other one, and will investigate.
::Googling, I looked at Merriam Webster's entries for both. They overlap, but there is no US/UK difference mentioned that I could find. I must say that 'specialty' always had an American flavo(u)r for me - it was the name of an LA record label. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 22:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
::: Collins English Dictionary 1979: '''Speciality''' or U.S. '''specialty''' (with different pronunciation), and '''judgment''' or '''judgement''' (no mention of BE/AE), but only '''Last Judgment''', '''Judgment Day''' etc. Judg(e)ment was discussed in the forum (including legal usage). --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:08, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 
::::This is very strange.  My Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, which is the standard medium-sized American dictionary, doesn't even *mention* speciality. What does my 1932 M-W Unabridged International, '''the''' authority, have to say?  Hmm, they have a long entry, with several meanings, and say, "See Specialty". And at "Specialty" they have an even longer entry with even more meanings.  I confess that I've never heard the first one before.  Sorry that I changed the name of the Wiki Motion, Peter.  Can you, as a sysop change it back without too much trouble? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:16, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

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 Talk Archive 1, 2  English language variant British English

Wallets and Pocketbooks

I just noticed that Wallet is listed as Brit and Pocketbook as 'Merkin. SURELY this has been reversed from what it SHOULD be! We had a LONG discussion about this years ago at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:British_and_American_English/Archive_1#wallet -- unless I am really wrong about this, I will switch the two around eventually.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

You say wallet, I say wallet, who says pocketbook? Americans, I thought. I may have heard it on the radio/TV a couple of times.
Just remembered billfold, which is obviously American. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:52, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Good catch! Shall I change the listing to wallet for Brit, wallet; billfold fer 'Merkins? And eliminate pocketbook entirely. As I said five years ago in the original discussion, NO 'Merkin male carries a pocketbook. Never, ever, not even once. But "billfold" is used occasionally. Less now, I think, than when I was young. Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that would be fine by me. Ro Thorpe (talk) 02:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
How about the female equivalents? What we call a handbag they call a purse. I don't know what they call what we call a purse, i.e. a small container mainly for money that can fit inside the handbag. (Just to confuse things, the Oscar Wilde sense of handbag is now obsolete, replaced by holdall here and grip there.) Peter Jackson (talk) 17:49, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Merkin's use the word handbag also, in the same sense as a purse. But "purse" can *also* be that small currency container that fits inside a handbag. I think we discussed this earlier in the archived link. I don't think that the differences between the two countries are distinct enough to make this an item on the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I impulsively decided to archive this page. Hope that's OK. The previous section's talk at Archive 2 can be continued if need be. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:52, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Fine with me. It was getting a little long in the tooth. Superannuated? I don't THINK that 'Merkins use that word....Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
And therefore not healthful. Just seen that for the first time (on my WP talk page). Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Okie, I've looked up superannuate and it doesn't say chiefly Brit., to my surprise. Are you saying that healthful is not used it Brit. at all? In M-W it has a long separate entry from healthy and there *are* differences.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't recall hearing it, no. Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:04, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Even great Rheault can nod. Here's what the Concise Oxford says about healthful: a. Health-giving; conductive to moral or spiritual welfare. Hence ~LY adv., ~NESS n. Nothing about it bein' 'Merkin usage. But I'm sure that we DO use it more.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Never heard it on BBC, Sky, Al Jazeera, CNN. Perhaps they use it on Fox News, I tend to skip that one. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Twee and quaint

These aren't synonyms. Quaint is a term of approbation, twee of disapproval. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, "quaint" *also* has another sense of "odd, figures of fun, strange". "Old-fashioned" in a disapproving sense, too. I think that today, in the States, at least, it's a coin-flip as to whether it's a word of approbation OR at least somewhat disparaging. The M-W says of twee: (1905) chiefly Brit: affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint <such a theme might sound ~ or corny -- Times Literary Supp.> -- that's where I grabbed quaint from. Please give me a better one and I'll make the change. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Quite right, quaint can be negative, too. Once again the direct equivalent table model is failing us. Much better would be a list of words that are (normally) not used by Americans, and another of those not used by Brits, each entry as long as needed. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
You are, of course, absolutely right. The question is: who will do it? Our manpower is severely constricted.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Glad you agree in principle, anyway. Earlier I thought of bolding those that are normally restricted to one variety only, like sidewalk. Room for lots of disagreement there? Or just lots of work? Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I think we're proposing something that is gonna be a lot of work, with only a couple of us contributing to it. A LOT of time, for instance, could probably be spend on individual items like tadpole/polliwog and purse/handbag etc. etc. Freeways, divided highways, dual carriage ways, motorways, etc. etc. etc.... Where is Doctor Johnson when you need him? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:42, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't think we need to worry about the amount of work. What actually needs to be done is for anything that's not straightforward "We usually say this, they usually say that" should be removed from the table and replaced by more dicursive explanation somewhere else, such as Lexis and idiom. This doesn't need to be done suddenly in one large operation. We can do it one item at a time whenever we feel like it. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that's the way to look at it. Ro Thorpe (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Some more words to consider

From Sword of Honour, page 217 getting near the end of the first book:

"A potty little show." M-W traces this back to 1860 and says it's chiefly Brit, meaning either trivial or insignificant, OR slightly crazy, OR snobbish.

Just means 'crazy' to me.

"All round the bum boats floated....", page 229. For the spelling section? In 'Merkin it is all around.

It's audible, not just spelling. Lexis and idiom, more like.

"she was not much of a dab at anything" -- M-W says it's chiefly Brit and is a "skillful person". I've also frequently seen something like "he's a dab hand" in all sorts of Brit books....

I only know it in the latter expression.

From The Mathematics of Murder, a little-known collection of short stories by the esteemed Michael Gilbert, a man who also writes a very clean prose:

The first story concerns murders being committed on railroad cars carrying commuters out of London. He refers to them as either coaches or carriages. I'm pretty sure that 'Merkin-talk is cars.

Correct.

Also, to my vast surprise, he describes these carriages as having a central gangway "down the middle". The old Brit trains with individual compartments had a corridor, I think, but American ones with open seating would have an aisle.

Also.

On the same page, 17, he refers to a pantechnicon, which is NEVER used in the States. A very large lorry, I believe?

Correct.

In the next story, page 33, he refers to a rough shoot (the great Geoffrey Household had a novel called A Rough Shoot), and I don't think there is any exact 'Merkin equivalent. Shoot does exist in 'Merkin but isn't much used, I think. Hunting rights I *think* is what we would say.... Maybe a blind....

I'd need the context for this one.

Also in this story, various lawyers and accountants look at account sheets -- I think these are bank statements or ledger pages but am not quite sure. Hayford Peirce (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No idea about that last one. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Have to be careful with technical stuff. There's a varety of different accounting documents (or were pre-computer). Might need an accountant to clarify what's what. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes indeed. I did a little googling on this one,then decided to stay clear of it. Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation -- Caribbêan

I just noticed this. At least in MY experience, BOTH pronunciations are common in the States -- Cah-RIB-ee-un, AND Care-ah-BE-un. Might be slightly regional. I know that over my own lifetime I have gone from one to the other. The second seems to be more common these days.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I first became aware of the first (Cəríbbean) just in the last few years. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I THINK that when I wuz younger we used the first more, then as I aged moved to the second. But I just don't know.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

trucks and lorries

Am almost at the end of the second novel comprising the Sword of Honour trilogy. The first was written around 1952, the second in 1955. Both are quintessential Waugh, the master of "British" English prose. In the first novel there are many references to "lorries" as Guy Crouchback moves back and forth across the UK. Towards the end of the second book he is in Egypt and then Crete. Here Waugh begins referring to lorries as trucks, then back to lorries, then to trucks again. Generally describing the same vehicle a few pages apart. He would have killed himself rather than knowingly used an "Americanism" in his prose, other than in dialog (in which his Americanisms were noticeably BAD). There's no possible way that he could have done this by mistake and then not picked it up at some point in his rewriting and copy-editing. I wonder what was going on here. DID British soldiers in 1941 sometimes refer to lorries as trucks? Hayford Peirce (talk) 02:07, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't know about that. I tend to think of lorries as bigger than trucks, but I couldn't specify the distinction out of my head. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:28, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Got round to checking Chambers, which confirms: they're both for carrying goods, with lorries for heavier loads.
Another one where we have finer gradations is stones, which are in between rocks and pebbles. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Oh my, I don't think I want to get into that! My tennis club locker room got a new electronic scale the other day -- it can be set to read in pounds, kilograms, or stones! A guy who had spent 25 in England and I were scratching our heads about the stones. I said it was 12 lb., he said it was 16. But neither made any sense for my weight in pounds. So I finally looked it up. 14 pounds. Wikipedia, incidentally, does NOT have an article about it. Hayford Peirce (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking of those stones (which are in our article). It's the more literal ones.
I know, I just brought this up as a "By the way...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
On the BBC this morning: it has been known for British material to be subtitled on American TV. They didn't mention whether it happened the other way. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

bowler hat and derby

The scholarly Companion to Sword of Honour that has been so useful says that "bowler hat" is the Brit term for "derby" (the first ones were made by an outfitter called, in part, Bowler. I think that 'Merkins also say bowler hat from time to time, but is "derby" ever used in this sense in Blighty? Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. Ro Thorpe (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Okie, then I'll put it in the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Lay-by

'Turnout' or 'pullout', says Wikipedia. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:57, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds right to me. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Meter/re

We need an explanation of the different senses in Britain. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, but it is covered in the Suffixes table. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Enquiry vs. Inquiry

Just came across a gift shop/nut (as the kind you eat) shop/ museum called Perry's Nut House in Maine that was once run by distant relatives of mine. They were using the word enquiry on their website, so I looked it up. M-W says only that it's chiefly Brit. usage for inquiry. To my 'Merkin eyes, it is misspelled.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:02, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Generally, an enquiry is a question, an inquiry is an investigation. Both are pronounced with the stress on the second syllable, while I think you stress the first. Peter Jackson (talk) 17:24, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Hah! I think Brits have Inquiry Agents, which I really don't think is used for 'Merkin PIs.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:50, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
As a Brit, I've never heard of Inquiry Agents (but then I'm v oldfashioned). If I wanted to ask about something, that would be an enquiry. If the government wanted to pacify public opinion by looking into something that had happened, that would be an Inquiry. --Martin Wyatt (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
It's hard to tell how common it is. I know that in one of the wonderful Victor Canning books about Rex Carver, Carver tells someone sardonically that he's "just a simple inquiry agent". And the phrase turns up here and there in various Google searches.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Preparatory schools

In England these are typically age 8-13. I understand that in America they're substantially older. Wikipedia isn't explicit, but seems to imply 14-18. Would that be right? Peter Jackson (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I went to a prep school, Phillips Exeter Academy, which, along with Phillips Andover (both founded by the same guy), are the oldest and best known. They, like MOST of them, I think, are for four years, grades 9 through 12. Some of them, such as Lawrenceville and maybe Grotons and St. Pauls, took in kids a couple of years younger, I think, being basically 6-year schools. As the years have passed though, I think that more or more of the schools have not only taken in girls but have also added younger grades. I don't know if even a majority of them are strictly four-year schools these days. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

"it was hard grafting"

In the Michael Gilbert collection of stories Anything for a Quiet Life Jonas Pickett sets up shop in a small coastal town. After a while a fellow solicitor comes by to chat with him, mentioning the names of some of their competition. "I didn't come here to work myself to death," says Jonas. Mr. Clover looks at him doubtfully. "Well, we've been here for two years, and I don't mind telling you it was hard grafting at first."

So what means "grafting"? There are a number of meanings for "to graft", obviously, but none of them seem to quite fit. I THINK that what he's saying is, "It was hard making a go of it at first...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Synonymous with hard work. Includes persistence. Ro Thorpe (talk) 12:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
And for the other thing, I would say 'travelling salesman'. 'Travellers' suggests itinerants in a caravan. Ro Thorpe (talk) 12:43, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I've only come across the noun form "hard graft" before, but my Chambers gives both forms as meaning "hard work", so there's strictly speaking redundancy: "hard hard work" (like "PIN number"). Peter Jackson (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
I'll put graft or something into the list. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Michael Gilbert, who was probably almost as precise in his English usage as Evelyn Waugh, writes in the above-cited story: "One whole morning was occupied with the installation of an impressive safe. Travellers called hoping to sell them office accessories...." There's an old science-fiction story, a very lesser one, by Robert A. Heinlein called The Man Who Traveled in Elephants, but that usage, at least in the States, has disappeared. His story was circa 1940.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I remember reading that and discovering it wasn't as odd as the title seemed to suggest.
The term "commercial traveller" presumably still exists. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, as far as I know "commercial traveler" is still around. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Phones

From American fiction I gather that the terms "cell (phone)" are quite common over there. I don't think I've ever come across the short form here, and even the long seems pretty rare. We correspondingly talk of a "mobile (phone)", as I think they do too. Peter Jackson (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I THINK that a lot of 'Merkins, particularly younger ones, will say, "What's your cell?" Or "What's your mobile?" I THINK that at some point there might have been a subtle difference between a cell and a mobile, ie, the mobile might have been more connected with your automobile, but I could easily be wrong on this. I myself always say "cellphone".... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Didicoy

Doubtful about this one. I'd never heard of it and a search suggests it's a rather technical family term. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

It should probably be removed. It ain't in either my 2nd Ed. M-W Unabridged of 1940 OR my complete OED. It was used in dialogue by an 80-year British admiral in a Michael Gilbert story. Talking about a traveling circus/fun-fair: "...run by a crowd of swindling didicoys, whose brats spend their days shop-lifting...." Maybe he picked it up somewhere on his OWN travels.... I didn't realize that it was so uncommon. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Not in normal usage, as they say. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I have heard it in conversation, but I agree it's not common. Ordinary people probably mainly talk of gypsies; politically correct terms seem to be travellers, Romany and Roma. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:07, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
According to what I found, a "didicoy" is a branch of gypsydom but NOT a Roma.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
That may be "correct" usage, but I don't imagine the ordinary gorjo when using such terms makes such distinctions. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:37, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Roundabout

So Americans use neither noun, I didn't know that. Presumably not the adjective either, 'in a roundabout fashion', meaning roughly 'indirectly'? Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Strangely enough, us 'Merkins DO use that adjective in precisely that way. It's pretty common. Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Makes sense if adjective preceded noun. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it almost certainly would have, in both cases.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Fowler

I do like this article, always something to make me smile in it. Looking at it now made me turn to my copy of The King's English by Fowler (1906) - worth a look - a couple of vignettes: "There are certain American verbs that remind Englishmen of the barbaric taste illustrated by such town names as Memphis" and "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" (Obviously Fowler's firm stand was in vain.) "The English and the American language and literature", according to Fowler "are both good things; but they are better apart than mixed." As differences he includes "fix up" (organize); "back of" (behind); "anyway" (at any rate); "standpoint" (point of view) "right along" (continuously), "some" (to some extent) and "just" (quite or very - as in "just lovely").Gareth Leng (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

When I was living in London in 1968 I bought Fowler's Usage and dipped into it mostly at random with great enjoyment. A true eccentric! But I did (and still do) agree with MOST of what he wrote. However, he certainly proved to be a VERY poor prophet when it came to: "A very firm stand ought to be made against placate, transpire and antagonize, all of which have English patrons" -- as far as I can tell, they are now very commonly used everywhere. Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:25, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

cutting the sandwiches

I'm PRETTY sure that a while ago we had a discussion as to whether Brits still said "cutting sandwiches" to denote "making sandwiches". Since it isn't in the list, I must have been overruled on it. But in Michael Gilbert's fine story Holy Writ, written, I believe, in the 1980s or 90s, an 8-year-old boy says, "Shall I cut the sandwiches?" And his father replies, "I cut them before breakfast." (They are on their way to a desolate spot for the father to replicate the Biblical story of Abraham -- Gilbert can have a *very* hard edge to his apparently very urbane stories....) As I've said before, Gilbert is a very meticulous craftsman with a judicious sense of language. I don't believe he would use a deliberate anachronism.... Any further thoughts on this? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I (b. 1950) don't recall hearing it. Are you sure it is a synonym for make? One can further divide a slice (or two) of a loaf into two or four pieces. Ro Thorpe (talk) 23:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
That's just how I'd naturally understand the phrase. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, when I was teenager in the 50s, and for some years afterwards, I read a *ton* of British mysteries, all the early Agatha Christies, Dorothy Sayers, etc. etc. In the ones from the 20s and 30s, at least, my recollection is that people were always "going to the kitchen to cut sandwiches". Then later an Englishman named Peter Dickinson wrote a dozen or so *highly* regarded mysteries, many of which were set in earlier decades -- in *his* books people are always cutting sandwiches. From the context in all of these, as in the Gilbert story cited above, it's clear that they are making numerous sandwiches, not simply cutting previously made one into smaller pieces. I'll do a little research on this and report later. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Just looked at the Wikipedia article about Dickinson -- had forgotten how prominent a writer he is! From his mystery The Last Houseparty, a snatch of dialog: "Would you like to come over to the kitchen at eleven for tea or coffee?" "Thank you, but I've brought a flask." "Lunch, then?" "I usually cut my own sandwiches." Could it be an eccentric usage confined to mystery writers, hehe? Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I did an "advanced" Google search for the phrase "cutting sandwiches in the kitchen" and turned up these items: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=%22cutting+sandwiches+in+the+kitchen%22&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights= Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Commendable research, Peirce. I suspect it was frightfully upper class and dying out by the 60s. Ro Thorpe (talk) 20:47, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes indeed, from this VEDDIE tony U. blog: http://snippetsnscraps.blogspot.com/2009/06/its-tuesday-and-i-cant-wait_24.html -- "There’s also a stall selling biscuits, jams and various handcrafted gifts, all made by our very enthusiastic committee members. I usually work “below stairs” cutting sandwiches in the kitchen, which is fun in a bustling kind of way, but this year will be delightfully different – I’ve been put in charge of the stall." Pip pip, wot! Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure there are other descriptive idioms like that that have been replaced by boring verbs like 'make' but I can't think of any at the moment. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Quite likely. But in this particular case, you think it would be too recondite to put in? Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:02, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I suspect it's just dated. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

packed our traps, and public assistance

Have started another Michael Gilbert, a novel called The Long Journey Home, which apparently features the solicitor Jonas Pickett in a minor role. The protagonist is chatting with someone in Italy who says he had spent 30 years working in the States. When he saw a "bust" coming, "me and my wife we packed our traps and headed for home." Is this like "part and parcel", as in "trap and trappings"? He also says that his children are now on "public assistance" -- this, I assume is "public welfare". Have we got distinctions here? Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I can only presume yes in both cases. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I can't figure out precisely what "trap" would be in 'Merkin, there are MANY slang meanings for it, but none of them seem to fit this context. So I'll let it go. And "public assistance" seems to be used widely in the States also. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I found "traps" in this sense in a number of slang dictionaries, and in OED, which gives 1813 as earliest known occurrence. I can't remember ever coming across it before, though. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
It certainly doesn't seem to be widely used. So I'll give it a pass. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Not specifically British: Moby Dick, chapter 20. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure it wasn't a lobster trap, hehe? Although I think Captain Arab was after bigger game.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 15:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Ground-nut/peanut

This at least needs clarification: "peanut" is perfectly normal British usage. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:33, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

This should probably be removed -- I think it's the sort of word that Agatha Christie might have used 80 years ago, along with motor and aerodrome, and that Evelyn Waugh used in the 50's, being toffish. I sure that no one in England today says, "Momma, please give me a groundnut butter sandwich...." Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, I would have imagined that was different from 'peanut butter sandwich'. Ro Thorpe (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

polo and turtlenecks

From a recent NYT article about "polo shirts":

What an American calls a turtleneck sweater, a Briton calls a polo-neck jumper. A camel's hair coat was, in the 1920s, "a polo coat."

Here in the States, today, we DO have polo shirts, AND turtleneck sweaters, and, I believe, camel's hair coats. Thoughts and comments? Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Me?? Sorry, no idea. Ro Thorpe (talk) 03:10, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, "polo-neck" is common usage here, and "turtle-neck" sounds like a descriptive term for the same thing. I'll reserve comment on the exact differences in meaning of "jumper", "sweater" and "jersey". Peter Jackson (talk) 10:25, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Tuck

I imagine it is still used, as the likes of Greyfriars still exist. The phrasal verb 'tuck in' is no doubt still used too. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:43, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

"To tuck in" is used in the States in that sense too. (As well as to tuck someone into bed....) Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:20, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Standing in the box

I've just been practising my Murkan, doing the crossword at dictionary.reference.com. One of the clues continued to puzzle me after I had answered it: Where people get grilled in London? In the witness box. Then I remembered from Perry Mason et al that witnesses take the stand in America. So no box, right? Ro Thorpe (talk) 19:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, it's the witness stand. I remember reading an old Brit legal novel in which one of the people in court referred to it as the "stand" and the judge, or someone, corrected him/her, saying, "You've been watching too many American TV shows." Maybe the wonderful Henry Cecil.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Row

also means noise. Is that usage also specifically British? Peter Jackson (talk) 10:46, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. Perhaps the Brits use it a little more often than the 'Merkins. I *think* that the 'Merkin sense of it can also imply an angry dispute as well, which contributes to the noise.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't know. An American correspondent gave it as an example of a 'British word'. Ro Thorpe (talk) 04:29, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm. If it *is* a Brit word, then it's certainly one that any 'Merkin would understand. Although maybe we use it more in the sense of "a fuss". Could be that I've simply read so many Brit books for 65 years that I think of it as being a common word everywhere. On the other hand, I certainly never said to my mother when I was young, "Why do the people in this book call blankets "rugs", and flashlights "torches" and Indians "Red Indians" and an argument a "row"?"
Well, let's look at Merriam-Webster. Here what it says, no less and no more: row n [origin unknown] (1746) a noisy disturbance or quarrel -- so, I would say, overall, that your correspondent is wrong on this. Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:51, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
No problem, I've removed it. I'm interested in your blankets/rugs example. To me they are separate things, blankets on beds, rugs on floors. Ro Thorpe (talk) 17:24, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
In old Brit novels by, say, Edith Blyton or whoever she was, the kids were always wrapping themselves in rugs. Maybe it's a term like lorry, motor, and aerodrome that has fallen into disuse.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Ah, Enid Blyton, maybe her children lived in houses with nice clean rugs. As for 'lorry' falling into disuse, I don't think things are quite that bad, are they? Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:45, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree that "lorries" are still about. But *sometimes* they also appear to be "trucks", even by Brit writers. I was shocked to see Evelyn Waugh of all people calling them trucks at *some* points in his Sword of Honour trilogy. And they clearly were "lorries", not railway trucks.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:02, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
See #trucks and lorries. Peter Jackson (talk) 15:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Rugs

From Enid's Five Go Back to Kirrin Island: "Well," said Julian, before Dick could catch his breath and reply. "There's the food of course. There are also ropes, spare batteries, rugs, and a couple of small spades and trowels. I've even packed a bone for old Timmy." I doubt if he was stuffing the family Persian carpets into his knapsack, hehe.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

In my version of Brit English, a rug is not a blanket, and only occasionally something on the floor, but more often a portable piece of woollen (or similar) cloth, often with a squared-off pattern, and often with a fringe (which blankets don't have) carried about for use in picnics and other outdoor activities. It may look like a blanket but is usually not as dense. The distinction may be more in the outdoor use than in the manufacture. --Martin Wyatt (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that makes perfect sense. It was my MOTHER, who was not a trained Brit/'Merkin scholar, who told me that a rug meant a blanket. What are the blankets, somewhat like airline blankets (if those even still exist) that people used to put over their legs in carriages? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Well, apparently it *is* a "carriage-rug"! See: https://www.wordnik.com/words/carriage-rug Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:41, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Also called a "traveling rug". Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, portable rugs, typically with fringes, I'd forgotten about those. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Gotta have the fringes! Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Prams &c

Just to complicate things, ordinary British usage nowadays is to call a pushchair a buggy, short for the trade name BabyBuggy. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:30, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

no one says East Indian for Asian.

I am in the USA. No one says East Indian. Tom Kelly (talk) 15:37, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I would say you're right on that. Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Added by User:Peter Jackson on 21 November 2011. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:15, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, what do they say? In American usage, as I understand it, Asian means East Asian. Here it means South Asian. So what do Americans call South Asians? I came across the term East Indian in a report on some politician, I think in one of the Western states. They probably said he was the first East Indian to hold a certain office or something like that. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
[1] says they're often called Asian Indians. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:35, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
The reference I mentioned above must be to Congressman Dalip Singh Saund, I think. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Could be. I dunno why he isn't being called Indian, though. That horrible Bobby Jindal, late gov'r of Louisiana, is usually referred to as Indian-American, occasionally Asian-American. Never, to my knowledge East Indian-American. I *think*, without doing any research, that 'Merkins use "Asian" to mean *anyone* from Japan, China, India, Southeast Asia, and Bangladesh. Pakistan? Not sure. I know that if anyone said to *me*, "That lady is an East Indian," I would reply, "What does *that* mean?" In WWII, of course, the Japanese built what *they* called "The Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," or at least that's how it's generally translated. Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
From today's news, anent Obama's State of the Union Address:

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley says the nation should resist the temptation to "follow the siren call of the angriest voices" during anxious times.... The daughter of Indian immigrants is delivering the Republican response to President Barack Obama's State of the Union address.... Haley calls herself a "proud daughter of Indian immigrants" and says individuals willing to work hard and follow the law shouldn't feel unwelcome.

Hayford Peirce (talk) 01:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
The references I found on internet search for the above Congressman suggest a variety of terms in use.
In some contexts the term "Asian" may well be used in a broad sense as you suggest. But, when the police issue a description of someone they'd "like to speak to", or a writer describes a character as "of Asian appearance", such broad meanings would be nonsensical. In such contexts Asian must mean East over there, South here.
I think we probably want to remove all these items from the main list and instead have a separate subsection alongside religion &c for ethnic groups. I'll make a start on that. Peter Jackson (talk) 18:10, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Good idea. This is a can of worms. And remember, what a policeman in Birmingham, England, is gonna call a person of interest is probably gonna be quite different from what a cop in Birmingham, Alabama is gonna call the very same person. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Color commentator

I've just come across this as AmE equivalent of BrE summariser at a sports event on TV. Ro Thorpe (talk) 17:59, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

No 'Merkin, not even I, would understand what a "summariser" was.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
A summarizer is usually someone who has played at a higher level than the commentators who give the "live" commentary, and inserts remarks when there's a bit of time to spare. Is that what the American term means? Peter Jackson (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
The guys (or girls) who describe the action that's going on are called either announcers or broadcasters or sportscasters. These people may or may not have actually played the sport that they are describing. In the old days of radio *some* of the announcers had once played the sport, but most of them had not and came to their jobs through a variety of ways. Vin Scully, for instance, who has been calling the Los Angeles Dodgers' games for 66(!) years now, had never been a baseball player. I think that *all* sports (in the States) now have their regular broadcasters AND what they call "color commentators" -- the later generally being former players who actually played at a fairly high level -- so that their names are recognizable to the people listening (or watching), and therefore carry a certain weight of expertise. Chances are that the broadcasters actually have more expertise in the subject than the commentators, but who knows? If you asked Vin Scully, however, who his summarizer was, he would look at you blankly and scratch his head.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
The guys who call the action for the most part are sometimes called the "play-by-play" broadcasters -- they would probably do 75% of the actual talking during a match or game.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
It sounds from what you say as if both roles have different names. I admit I'm not much interested in sport as a whole, so my impressions based on Test Match Special may not apply to sports other than cricket. On TMS they have "commentators", who give the impression they've played at some level, but never (?) at test level. They give the main running commentary. The "summarizers", who are all former test players, add comments as convenient. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:13, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Tennis has similar pairs, and football and golf too, I think---both called 'commentators', and the 'expert' probably also 'summariser', in British English. Ro Thorpe (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC).

Different

How about "different from" (BrE) v. "different than" (AmE)? Where would it go? Ro Thorpe (talk) 16:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you're gonna find 'Merkins all over the map on this one. I think 'Merkins mostly just use both of them at complete random. But here's what the NYT Manual of Style and Usage says: You can't go wrong with different from; you can, and almost always will, with different than. Whatever the hell that means! From Strunk & White: Different than. Here logic supports established usage; one thing differs from another, hence different from. Or, other than, unlike. Now I'll leave the rest up to you, hehe.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:23, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I think "different to" is quite common in practice in British usage, though more likely to be considered "incorrect"; "different than" is much less common over here, though there are cases where construction would be quite awkward without it. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
"Different to" is definitely NOT used in the States. Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
In my GB youth we were taught to resist saying 'different to' and that 'different from' was correct; 'different than' was unknown. Ro Thorpe (talk) 16:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Life and words are complicated. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that we should have an entry on the "different from-than" business. It's clearly not a simple straightforward Brit/'Merkin divide. Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

-wards words

There's also 'inwards' and 'outwards', which, like 'forwards', lose the 's' also in BrE in compounds like 'outward-looking'. So the new section needs elaboration, but I'm not in the mood at present. Ro Thorpe (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Onto

I think you'll find this is perfectly normal in British usage, with only Oxford refusing to recognize it. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I was surprised not to find it anywhere. Could you provide a ref, please, so I can put it in English spellings instead? Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Chambers 12th ed p 1075, near the end of the entry on "on"; gives the 2-word version as an also, which probably means substantially less common, though I can't find a statement to that effect. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:02, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, done. Ro Thorpe (talk) 19:54, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Fowler's, second edition, has an anguished cri de coeur about "onto" and whether it exists or not. I remember reading this about 45 years ago and just checked the book -- he is still anguished 45 years later, hehe. Hayford Peirce (talk) 01:32, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

As an aside, Indian English seems to have created an analogous word "upto". Peter Jackson (talk) 08:45, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Another aside. Fowler also mentions that words like "everyone", "someone" and "anyone" didn't exist in the 19th century. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:46, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

The Law of Averages?

Am reading another Michael Gilbert novel, an old one from 1955 called The Country-House Burglar in the States and Sky High in the UK. In it a Chief Constable is talking about a pre-war country-house burglar named Feder, "Outwardly a respectable average adjuster in the City. And no nonsense. If you had an average to adjust, he'd adjust it for you." I gotta say, I *think* this is the first time I've ever encountered this word. And, considering the source, and the context, it clearly isn't slang of some sort. So wot is it? Hayford Peirce (talk) 15:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Never come across it either, far as I recall. Chambers 12th: "an assessor employed by an insurance company in marine claims". Cf the same dictionary on one I have come across: "loss adjuster n an assessor employed by an insurance company, usu in fire damage claims." Peter Jackson (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
From the BIG OED, there are numerous uses going back a long time regarding shipping expenses etc., but the current meaning seems to be: "The expense or loss to owners, arising from damage at sea to the ship or cargo." And from the Merriam-Webster 2nd Unabridged of the 1930s, an Average Adjustor is: "Admiralty law: One whose profession is to adjust the several liabilities arising from general averages." Now do we understand, hehe? Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Milk bars

In the Michael Gilbert I'm reading a lady drops in at a London "milk bar" circa 1955. According to Our Competitor, milk bars exist in Poland and Australia, although they seem to be quite different from each other in those two countries. In the States, a "milk bar" is totally unknown, I would say. (Except for a Milky Way candy bar...) What were they in 1955 London, and do they still exist in the same form today? Hayford Peirce (talk) 01:23, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I vaguely remember around 1970 there was a place called The Milkmaid, which specialized in milk and milkshakes as its main drinks. Maybe that's the sort of thing, though they did food too. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:21, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

a couple more from Michael Gilbert's 1955 Sky High

1.) "Ahead showed a square of alders and brambles. In the middle an affair of tumbled bucks and rotted timbers, stood the remains of a barn." No clue, me, as to what a buck is.

2.) "Don't tell me," he said, "that you've had a little man in a bowler hat hidden in the dickey. Extraordinary." A dicky in earlier 'Murkin was, I think, a kind of collar or shirt for gentleman -- see one of the songs in Carousel.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:17, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

2 I've always understood as a sort of bib standing in for a proper shirt, but maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
From online M-W:

plural dickeys or dickies 1 any of various articles of clothing: as a: a man's separate or detachable shirtfront b: a small fabric insert worn to fill in the neckline 2 chiefly British a: the driver's seat in a carriage b: a seat at the back of a carriage or automobile

Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

something the cat drug in?

Just finishing up The Country House Burglar. The hero is crawling up the stairs in pursuit of the bad guy: "You got to it by a steep secondary staircase which was covered only by a thin drugget and had a most peculiar squeak." Drugs, anyone? Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

more Brit talk from my next Michael Gilbert

I finished Sky High and am now slowly going through his 1966 The Crack in the Teacup, about a young lawyer caught up in municipal corruption in a Channel resort town. So far here are the words that are unfamiliar to my 'Merkin ears:

page 28: " "and who's a jobbing builder" "

page 29: " "Have I got a smut on my nose?" "

page 30: " "He blethered about the personal touch." " In the States we would say "blathered" -- could this be a typo?

page 61: "a much older wall of knapped Sussex flint"

several pages: drains -- obviously used in the sense of what 'Merkins call sewers or sewage. If an American butler said to an Brit. livin' in the States, "Your lordship, the man is here about the drains," he would be referring to the drainpipes leading down from the gutters, *not* to the sewage pipes.... Or so I'm pretty sure.

page 70: " "Neither Jack nor I have had much time for canvassing." " Out politicking and seeking votes. There are 'Merkin words for it, but they escape me at the moment.

page 86: "waiting for the dixie to boil" -- some sort of teakettle or camping utensil?

page 89: " "If you two don't do what you're told, and quick, you'll be on bounds for a week." " There are a couple of 'Merkin phrases for this that I can't put my finger on. grounded is one, I think.

page 101: "Grand Avenue joined the Marine Parade at a point opposite the Municipal Bandstand...." Esplanade or some such?

page 103: "and three battered wooden settles round a table...." Chairs? Stools? Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:08, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

A "jobbing builder", I vaguely assume, is a self-employed contractor hired for particular jobs.
No one in the States would know what you meant if you used this term.
I think "smut" in this sense is still fairly common.
I guess that it's a piece of dirt, or soot, that drifts out of the sky, but in the States it's really only used, if at all, to describe "dirty" pix or literature. And even that has probably vanished.
I've heard "blethered" fairly often, though I see typing this that the (apparently American) system red-lines it. Might be regional, though.
Yes, that's probably the case.
Flint-knapping is something they did in the Stone Age.
Ah, an anthropologist would know what it meant.
Surprised you haven't come across "canvassing"; it's standard WP terminology, so I vaguely assumed it was standard over there too.
Yes, I did a little research and it IS used here. But not as common as in Blighty.
Don't recall "dixie", though your guess sounds plausible. Cf. Australian "billy".
Once again, could be regional. Or a word from Gilbert's youth. But he DID keep up with things....
Haven't come across "on bounds". Various terms are used in different contexts: "grounded", "confined to barracks" &c. Is this quotation in the context of a public (private) school?
Sort of, but really a gang of disreputable teenagers going to create trouble in a seaside resort. The older ones are telling the younger ones to begone while they talk about sex....
"Parade" in the context you give sounds almost like a proper name. I suspect such usages are local.
It's definitely a proper name in this book.
I've come across "settle" occasionally, including I think American sources, but it's not common. It seems to mean something not much different from "settee" or "sofa", but I'm only guessing that. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:55, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Okie, that makes sense. Hayford Peirce (talk) 02:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Chambers says "blether" is Scottish, "blather" is American and dialect. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Hmmm, I don't think of "blather" as being dialect. (It can be either a noun or a verb, by the way.) Maybe it started out as regional? I'll do some checking.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:21, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Just checked my 1940 M-W Unabridged for "blather". Doesn't say anywhere that is a dialect word. And says it's the same as "blether". Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:13, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
MW is rather careless about British usage. E.g. it just says "metre" is a British variant for "meter", without mentioning that there are 2 different words spelt that way in America but distinguished over here.
When Chambers talks of dialect, it means dialects within England, I think. Peter Jackson (talk) 15:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that's likely. I can't put my finger on an example right now, but the big M-W, and to a lesser degree the Collegiate one, do label some words as dialect, but I can't remember if they specify Brit. or Amer. Hayford Peirce (talk) 15:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this should go in the article: it's not really a vocabulary difference, because they're obviously the same word; but it's nor really spelling, because there's a different pronunciation; and vice versa. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The vocabulary table has variants, like aero/airplane and afterward(s), so I'd put it in there. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Rutabaga/swede/turnip

According to both Chambers and Merriam-Webster (i.e. both sides of the pond), there are 2 species commonly called turnips: 1 of them is also known as swedes in Britain and rutabagas in America; the other seems to have no name of its own. Peter Jackson (talk) 14:42, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

I thought that we had discussed this years ago. If not, this is a FOOL'S ERRAND. Even in the States there is absolute chaos in determining what a turnip is as opposed to a rutabaga. It depends on what part of the country you live in. In New England, where I grew up, it's completely the opposite from California, to which I moved as a teenager. Hopeless. "Swedes" MAY exist in some parts of the country as fodder that is fed to animals.... I don't think they are ever considered human fare.... In any case, I don't like ANY of them, hehe. Hayford Peirce (talk) 01:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
We may well have done. There doesn't seem to be one of those panels giving links to archives of this page, like the ones they have in WP. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:51, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Strange. I thought that there *used* to be links. Maybe something that got lost when we switched servers? Maybe John Stevenson would know? Hayford Peirce (talk) 18:12, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Chinese Checkers

is the spelling of Booker T.'s tune (checked on YouTube). Would this be a specifically American variant? Ro Thorpe (talk) 17:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Apparently, yes. In UK it is Chinese chequers, or so I believe. Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
WP article on it cites Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary for the British spelling. In any case it's not called "Chinese draughts". In fact, again according to WP, it's neither Chinese nor a form of draughts/checkers, but a German adaptation of the American game halma. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:52, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Halma, I used to play that in Germany! Thanks for replies; I'll put the variant in. Ro Thorpe (talk) 14:53, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Navvies in the Navy?

I don't THINK any 'Merkin would know what you wuz talkin' about if you said a "heavy laborer" wuz a "navvy". I see the term in Brit. thrillers, however, from time to time.... "Laborer" would probably be the 'Merkin equivalent, although there may be others.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 05:22, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

They were originally the (mostly Irish) workers on the navigation canals, whence the name. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:38, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Makes sense. Probably were called that also in the early days of the Erie Canal.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Queue

is sometimes used to mean a pigtail or something similar. I've only ever come across this in American sources, but is it in fact an American usage? The dictionaries I've tried say archaic, but the sources I've seen are fairly recent. Peter Jackson (talk) 13:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

It's ancient. Might be talking about Chinese men's pigtails 100 years or so ago. No one today unless they're my age or a scholar would know what the hell was being talked about.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:38, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Sassy & cheeky

Do Americans say 'cheeky'? Ro Thorpe (talk) 22:47, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I really don't think so. But I don't think sassy is used much anymore, either. What the alternatives are, I can't think of at the moment. But I'll give it some thought.... Insolent? But that's formal. Maybe some words revolving around "dis"? Hayford Peirce (talk) 03:07, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Insurance

In Britain, when an insurance contract specifies that you pay the first so much and the company pays the rest up to a limit, that first amount is called an excess (charge). From something I heard on the BBC this morning it sounds like it's called deductible in America. The rather confused explanation in a Wikipedia article seems to confirm this. Peter Jackson (talk) 10:50, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it's always called a deductible. There may be excess verbiage at some point to explain PRECISELY what this means in relation to your own policy (since the companies are always trying to minimize what it INITIALLY looks like you'll have to pay out of your own pocket), but it always boils down to "deductible". With all of my familiarity with British terminology, if you told me that my insurance policy had an excess on it, I really would NOT have known what you meant. Hayford Peirce (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

ring roads and beltways

I think that both terms are used in the States, along with loop and various other words. The Beltway in Washington,which has officially been given that name, has popularized it, of course, but it is by no means universal. I remember a long time ago, when a lot of the country's fledgling electronic industry was on Route 128 around Boston, THAT was called a ring road, certainly not a beltway.... I have a feeling this may be one of those cases of "a distinction without a difference". Could be wrong, too, of course.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 23:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Negligence and Malpractice

"If you sue a doctor for not doing their job with due care and attention, this is usually called negligence in England and malpractice in America." -- I don't think this parses correctly -- you're saying that the act of SUING is the negligence or malpractice. Think it needs to be reworded....Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:32, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think it could be clearer. Maybe I'll think of something. Peter Jackson (talk) 15:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
How about: When doctors are sued for not doing their job with due care and attention, it is because they are usually being accused of negligence in England and malpractice in America. Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
That makes the sentence construction clearer, but obscures the point that the distinction is linguistic, though that might be considered obvious from the context. How about changing the second part of your sentence to "what they are accused of is usually called ...", or something like that? Peter Jackson (talk) 09:39, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Hire cars &c

Ordinary British usage distinguishes between a taxi, which you can flag down in the street, and a private hire car, which you have to order. Dictionaries don't seem to have noticed this. I don't know what we call a car you hire to drive yourself. Peter Jackson (talk) 12:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I think a hire car. At least I just got an email from my Aussie son-in-law, a well-educated chap, who said that he was going to drive his hire car from Paris to St. Nazaire....Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
What about rental (or rented) car? Peter Jackson (talk) 10:44, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

three more from a 1956 (circa) Michael Gilbert story

The Brits use bedsitting, bed-sitter, bedsitter, etc, and the 'Merkins simply don't. My big old MW unabridged calls it Engl. and says it's an apartment that combines a bedroom and a sitting room. I really can't think of an American equivalent, although it must exist. The same story also speaks of the letting plan, and the letting agent -- this would be "leasing" in the States. And it contains the phrase "difficult to mark him to earth", which was new to me. We say "run to earth, and I thought the Brits did too....Hayford Peirce (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, a bedsit, as it's often shortened to, is a one-room flat. And yes, 'run to earth' is what I'd say; never heard the 'mark' phrase. Ro Thorpe (talk) 18:48, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Word of Mouth

Latest episode of this series was specifically on this subject. Here are a few things they said:

  1. "vetting" was virtually unknown in America before 2008;
  2. "fortnight" is not used there;
  3. Webster deliberately rejected "aristocratic French" spellings like "honour" and "centre".

I should add that MW 2003 doesn't seem to support 1 and 2. Peter Jackson (talk) 09:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that "vetting" was known by the "elites" but not much used. It certainly wasn't used as commonly as it is today. "Fortnight" is similar in that I think most educated people "knew" what it meant (or still do) but certainly never use it. I don't think that in all my life any American, no matter how well-educated or how great an Anglophile, has ever used "fortnight" in talking to me. As for #3, that *may* be. I thought that around the time of Teddy Roosevelt spelling reforms were made with a number of words, changing "theatre" to "theater", for instance. Hayford Peirce (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Parliamentarian

See [2]. Peter Jackson (talk) 08:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, whoever made that comment is absolutely right. Hayford Peirce (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Biscuits/cookies

Do Americans ever talk of "dog cookies"? Peter Jackson (talk) 13:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

They probably do these days, in which there are so many specialty items for dogs. But it they do, they're probably referring to what would be more like real *human* cookies than what are generally called dog biscuits. In other words, they aren't using the word cookie to replace the word biscuit. Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

to tick someone off

I've seen the phrase from time to time in Evelyn Waugh's military novels and always thought that it was almost like sending him a rocket or whatever the exact phrase is. Apparently, from what you say, it's much milder than getting a rocket. Thanks! Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:45, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Welcome! Ro Thorpe (talk) 02:43, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Niche

In my experience this is always pronounced neesh in Britain nowadays, but it seems from various sources that Americans generally stick with the old pronunciation nitch. Peter Jackson (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Or nish as in fish. I don't THINK that I've heard 'Murkins say nitch, but I could easily be mis-hearing, there's not much of a difference there.... Hayford Peirce (talk) 14:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm looking at my 11th Edition (print) of the M-W Collegiate and it shows "nich also nēsh or nish" -- so your guess is as good as mine. Hayford Peirce (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I came across this long ago in Asimov's short story "A loint of paw", which seemed to expect this pronunciation. Peter Jackson (talk) 14:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Interjections

My impressions:

  1. Hey in American can mean Hello/Hi; in Britain it can only mean Oi or Ahoy.
  2. Eh in American can mean Er; in Britain it can only mean You what?

Peter Jackson (talk) 09:13, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Roads

I've never heard of a metalled road either, but if it is a British term it'll be so spelt, with a double ll. We certainly could talk of a paved road here, but that would mean paved with stone, not metal. Peter Jackson (talk) 14:27, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

I'll add a second L to the word. I dunno why Kennedy used the word -- he's a well-known British historian who also holds a post at Yale. He ought to know what he's doing.... In any case, here is what a little research shows:

Why are tarmaced roads called metalled roads? Best Answer: Metal or metalling has had two distinct usages in road paving. Metalling originally referred to the process of creating a carefully engineered gravel roadway. The route of the roadway first would be dug down several feet. Depending on local conditions, French drains may or may not have been added. Next, large stone was placed and compacted, followed by successive layers of smaller stone, until the road surface was a small stone compacted into a hard, durable surface. Road metal later became the name of stone chippings mixed with tar to form the road surfacing material tarmac. A road of such material was called a "metalled road" in British usage, although this would be very rare in modern usage. It would be more common to refer to a macadam road. The word metal is derived from the Latin metallum, which means both "mine" and "quarry", hence the roadbuilding terminology.Hayford Peirce (talk) 16:29, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

An aside that reminds me of: it's been said that the word "tarmacadamization" (admittedly rare) illustrates the nature of the English language:

  • "tar" is Anglo-Saxon
  • "mac" is Celtic
  • "adam" is Hebrew
  • "iz(e)" is Greek
  • "ation" is Latin

Peter Jackson (talk) 09:11, 12 September 2017 (UTC)