Talk:Joan of Arc, memory of

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 Definition An examination of the wide range of views and interpretations regarding Joan of Arc's life as seen in the eyes of her perceivers over the centuries. [d] [e]
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Removal of WP material

Following the removal today of the WP material, the remaining content of this article is entirely new and contains no WP material.

The removal, and the corresponding decision to write the aritcle a nuovo is based on my experiences editing the original Joan of Arc article wherein the article was about 90% re-written. It would simply have been easier to write it from scratch rather than revise. James F. Perry 13:01, 21 February 2007 (CST)

change name

I suggest we change the name to Joan of Arc, Historical Perspectives the goal is to get the major keyword first. Richard Jensen 00:43, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

name change: we need to have Joan as lead word

or people will have hard time finding it Richard Jensen 13:49, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

This is not agreed to by everyone. We'll decide the issue on the Editorial Council soon. --Larry Sanger 10:04, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

The current title seems entirely wrong to me. I think we need something like "Joan of Arc in popular culture". As I've said elswhere, there is no need for these topsy-turvy index-like titles, and "memory" seems ambiguous, since what we're really talking about in this entry is what people have thought, felt and said about Joan who could not have had any actual "memory" of her at all. Russell Potter 08:26, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
A new suggestion: "Joan of Arc in popular tradition" (suggested by the work of medievalist Gwen Morgan, who has written extensively on this subject -- this is the phrase she uses to describe her own work. Russell Potter 08:40, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Weird section

Joan of Arc's transvestism

Question: Did God order you to wear a man's dress?
Joan: The dress is a small, nay, the least thing. I did not put on man's dress by the advice of any man whatsoever; I did not put it on, nor did I do aught, but by the command of God.
Question: Did this commmand to assume male attire seem lawful to you?
Joan: Everything I have done is at God's command; and if He had ordered me to assume a different habit, I should have done it, because it would have been his command.


"Transvestism" is a strange choice of word, implying as it does that an iconic French heroine endorsed a modern practice that it is doubtful she would endorse. I see from the Google search transvestism + "Joan of Arc" that there are some scholars who use the word here. In this case, their work must absolutely be properly contextualized, because they are among the very few who would actually refer to Joan's habit of wearing men's clothes as "transvestism" or "cross-dressing." But the above section consists simply of a decontextualized exchange between Joan and her questioner, labelled "Joan of Arc's tranvestism."

If you want to reinstall this section, please do not make it look as if CZ endorses the idea that Joan of Arc is properly called a "transvestite" (of course, we can say that scholars say so); and please contextualize the quoted exchange. Thanks. --Larry Sanger 10:04, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

I have been quite inactive on CZ the past few months and thus this article was left in a woefully incomplete state. That is why it is so, well, woefully incomplete. Your comments in re the section title are quite right.
My current thinking is to include a section entitled "Joan as feminist icon" which does not take a position as to whether or not she is a feminist, merely that she has become something of a heroine to modern day feminists. (In fact, the statement "Joan is (or "is not", take your pick) a feminist" has no discernable meaning to me as the word "feminist" in this context is a late 19th century creation).
Within this proposed new section, the issue of her "transvestism" (or, more neutrally, her wearing of male attire) would be discussed along with the question, affirmed by some, heatedly denied by others, of her lesbianism (see Sackville-West).
James F. Perry 12:36, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Proposed section topics

Provisionally, I plan on dividing the article into the following main sections (with some further elucidation of contents in parentheses):

  • Religious saint (of the Catholic church, e.g.)
  • Feminist icon (LGBT heroine, "cross-dressing", lesbianism)
  • Patriot / national heroine (le Pen, WWI and WWII)
  • Soldier / war leader
  • Martyr / political prisoner
  • Pre-Protestant figure (G.B. Shaw)
  • Psychoanalytic case study (anorexia, hysteria, schizophrenia)
  • Heretic / witch (the contemporary English, Shakespeare)
  • Maid / virgin
  • Devout peasant girl

James F. Perry 13:41, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

I will be working on this article along the lines indicated above on a Draft page: User:James F. Perry/Draft and will only post additions to the mainspace article once a section is more completely worked out. James F. Perry 16:36, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
Rather than these abstract categories, which overlap so greatly as to render them of limited utility, I would suggest we treat of Joan through the various means and media in which her posthumous reputation has grown. Therefore:
  • Joan of Arc in religious iconography
  • Joan of Arc in fiction
  • Joan of Arc on stage
  • Joan of Arc in film
  • Joan of Arc in military recruitment posters
  • Joan of Arc in song
  • Joan of Arc in psychiatric literature
Here, at least, the boundaries of media are fairly discrete. Russell Potter 08:30, 6 July 2007 (CDT)
p.s. having just looked over the Wikipedia entry on this same (roughly speaking) topic, there is much good information there, but it is exhaustive (and exhausting!) rather than encyclopedically described. Russell Potter 09:27, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

I will be actively working on this article over the next couple of weeks or so. Having considered R. Potter's comments and looked over his approach on the article page, I still feel my own topical approach is the best. I do not feel these categories are all that abstract nor do I feel that there is a great deal of overlap amongst them.

In addition, consideration by topic would in fact treat of the main literary and other cultural works on Joan as exemplars of the topics. For example, my section on Joan as a pre-Protestant figure would rely heavily on G.B. Shaw's play and preface.

I do not see the WP entry on Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc as the roughly equivalent WP entry. Rather, the roughly equivalent entry in WP is the second half of their main Joan of Arc article. .Perhaps this accounts for the differences in our approach.

In any case, I ask those interested to give me a few days to develop this approach on the article page.

James F. Perry 12:23, 22 August 2007 (CDT)