Citizendium - a community developing a quality, comprehensive compendium of knowledge, online and free.
Click here to join and contribute
CZ thanks our previous donors. Donate here. Treasurer's Financial Report

Talk:Henry VIII

From Citizendium
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is developing and not approved.
Main Article
Discussion
Related Articles  [?]
Bibliography  [?]
External Links  [?]
Citable Version  [?]
 
To learn how to update the categories for this article, see here. To update categories, edit the metadata template.
 Definition 16th century English king who broke with the Church of Rome, and married six times. [d] [e]
Checklist and Archives
 Workgroup category History [Categories OK]
 Talk Archive none  English language variant Not specified

What to call Monarchs--i.e. article title format

I'm assuming that monarchs will be referred with the country in the title, that is Henry IV of England as opposed to Henry IV, which would need disambiguation (is that really a word?). I'll go ahead and use that format and fix the links I find, unless someone has an objection. Aleta Curry 22:04, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

I think we eventually agreed to name these all Henry VIII (England), etc. J. Noel Chiappa 14:03, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
No we agreed only when it was necessary. There is only one Henry VIII and so the England part is superfluous. Richard Jensen 14:30, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
I'm all for picking something clear as far as the names of royalty are concerned, but I also think it would be desirable to figure out a naming scheme that avoids anachronism. For example, even though he was technically king of England, it would be strange to name our article on the Angevin king Henry II "Henry II (England)" because at his accession, most of his territory was in modern-day France. Perhaps it would be preferable to go with royal household instead-- i.e. Henry VIII (house of Tudor). This is far from a perfect solution-- it's somewhat patriarchal-- but it is clear and un-anachronistic. Rather than engaging Richard on his particular question-- naming each article by realm or family or whatever from the start or not-- I am going to refrain until Anthony gets the 'Naming Convention' proposal written up and we have our vote (I am guessing that it will break down along deterministic v. non-deterministic lines). Brian P. Long 15:34, 11 April 2008 (CDT)
I think "Henry VIII (House of Tudor)" is clunky. If we go down that road, I'd much prefer "Henry VIII (Tudor)". J. Noel Chiappa 13:29, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

is there any opposition to renaming this Henry VIII ? That is what the draft on naming conventions calls for. Richard Jensen 08:49, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

Henry VIII is fine. What is the situation when we have multiple Henrys? In that situation, How do we work it out? (There were several kings of france called Henry, I think) Denis Cavanagh 11:03, 17 May 2008 (CDT)
Once articles are checklisted, moving them is a pain. Since naming is still up in the air, it would be good to avoid a second rename. But I'm not bothered particularly if someone feels that absolutely have to rename this through some intermediate name. J. Noel Chiappa 13:29, 17 May 2008 (CDT)
There is only one person in history named Henry VIII, so we have no overlap. There are several kings named Henry II (that is, after we translate their name into English--like the Polish Henryk II), so Henry II (England) works for me. I dislike "Henry II of England" because students will assume that was his name or title, and it was neither. Can we have a constable or expert do the moving. Last time I tried it we lost the throne.Richard Jensen 13:35, 17 May 2008 (CDT)
Done. Fee: 5 CZ-credits... :-) J. Noel Chiappa 14:37, 17 May 2008 (CDT)
hey that's terrific...you get one free bibliography or 10 random book titles! Reminds me of teaching in Chicago one winter. Night class 6pm-9om. HEAVY snowstorm. Two students come in about 7pm covered with snow--welcome! I said, we thought you wouldn't make it. They tell about subways stopped in the snow. Then the ask don't we get a reward???? I agreed: OK, you can have 5 free typos on your next paper.  :) (true story) Richard Jensen 14:40, 17 May 2008 (CDT)
Oh my giddy aunt! And this is okay because--WHY?? Is that the humanities equivalent of "Ruby programming language" (and by the way is that to be written with all caps "Ruby Programming Language"?) My head hurts!
Aleta Curry 20:16, 18 May 2008 (CDT)
Where there isn't another Henry VIII its okay. We run into problems when we call kings things such as Richard I of England, despite the fact that that particular king spoke very little (if any) English, spent 6 months of his 10 year reign in England, and owned huge portions of France... Kinda misleading! Denis Cavanagh 20:20, 18 May 2008 (CDT)
You expect this all to make sense? What an optimist! J. Noel Chiappa 20:25, 18 May 2008 (CDT)
Er...well, no, Den, if this is *only* about disambiguation, then Richard I is never a problem using the above logic, because there's only one, despite the fact that people like me call him Richard the Lionheart. I think? Right? Where's the aspirin? Aleta Curry 20:31, 18 May 2008 (CDT)

Improvements

This will become a major article, so I hope people can pitch in. I added a bibliography, added some small details and made a few small editorial tweaks. Richard Jensen 18:42, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

Highlights??

Some time ago a section was added on "Highlights and paradoxes of Henry VIII’s reign:" I will try to rewrite incorporate these:

  • The births of Mary I of England in 1516 and Elizabeth I of England in 1533, both of whom would eventually rule England. Despite Henry’s best efforts, his only son Edward VI died young and the Tudor Dynasty ended with the death of Queen Elizabeth I, Henry’s daughter.
  • Expansion of the Royal Navy. Henry is considered by some to be one of the founders of the Royal Navy, which went from 5 to 53 ships during his reign, largely as a result of his campaigns in Europe.
  • Depletion of the treasury. Henry inherited a prosperous economy from his father, Henry VII, and despite additional gains from seizing the property of the church, the economy was ruined by the time Elizabeth came to the throne.
  • However there is a problem with the last one: what brain drain does it mean?? Decimation of the intelligentsia. Henry VIII was a humanist himself, but the imprisonment and execution of those who opposed him resulted in modern terms in a “brain drain” of English thinkers. Richard Jensen 11:25, 19 May 2008 (CDT)
I think that must have been referring to people leaving the UK to avoid religious oppression (if they favoured the Catholic Church). More is the best known intellectual to run afoul of Henry, but in an age when so many learned men were still part of the church, or tied to it (following the precedent in the Middle Ages), surely there must have been others. I don't recall off the top of my head who, or numbers, though. J. Noel Chiappa 12:48, 19 May 2008 (CDT)
we need more than one More to have a brain drain. Richard Jensen 13:21, 19 May 2008 (CDT)
Sigh. You're going to make me go dredge through my library and come up with a list of names for you? :-) I can do it (I have about a half-dozen works on the period), but it will have to be later, alas. J. Noel Chiappa 13:42, 19 May 2008 (CDT)
No I can just drop the statement, which does not seem to figure anywhere in the studies on Henry VIII I have been reading. If at some future point evidence of a brain drain shows up we can add it back. Richard Jensen 13:58, 19 May 2008 (CDT)

I thought it was a strange enough addition myself. Its not like there was an exodus on the scale of say, the Huguenots in France during Henry's reign (That was a 'real' brain drain!) Denis Cavanagh 14:05, 19 May 2008 (CDT)

Protestantism

The article says he encouraged it. Is that right? My understanding was that he burned Protestants at the stake for heresy, while beheading Roman Catholics for treason. Peter Jackson 18:18, 10 January 2013 (UTC)