Talk:Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton

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Article Checklist for "Bill Clinton"

Workgroup category or categories	Politics Workgroup, History Workgroup, Topic Informant Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Versuri 10:25, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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Editor plan and guidelines

• A general principle of all articles about political figures: it should be impossible to determine whether the authors are supporters or opponents of the subject of the article. Citizendium is neither Democrat nor Republican.

This article talk page is now under dispute watch

See CZ:Dispute Watch. You're going to have to start using the {{prop}} template in the way that page describes, illustrated here: Talk:Oriental (word). We're testing out a dispute resolution idea, but I'm taking the test seriously. From now on, disputation on this page must be on-topic, and on-topic means (1) aimed at a specific proposition, (2) the proposition must concern the wording of the text, and (3) engaging in a dispute, as opposed to how to characterize the dispute, is off-topic. Call it the Anti-Bloviation Rule!  :-) --Larry Sanger 07:26, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

What follows is not my most passionately held belief, nor is it a particularly important issue IMHO, but it is an issue none-the-less and I'm going to try to push it through this new system to see how the system works. Will Nesbitt 06:39, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

The appropriateness of the word "brilliant" to describe any political figure.

Proposition: Introductory paragraph sentence reading: Clinton, a policy wonk, was (with Ronald Reagan) one of the two best campaigners in recent decades.

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

I think it is inappropriate for CZ to describe any politician with an editorial adjective such as "brilliant". Clinton may well be brilliant, but there are many arguments against his brilliance. Because this is an arguable statement, it is not a factual statement, thus I don't think CZ should take a position on his brilliance.

The comparison to Reagan reads like an attempt to placate partisans, and doesn't solve the real editorial issue. I don't think CZ should take a position on Reagan's brilliance either, btw. The way it's now written, the comment on Reagan seems wildly off-topic and only makes sense in the context that someone is trying to appease those who disagree with Clinton's brilliance. The footnote leads to a search engine with no direct quote or opinion by any expert. If there were an expert to quote I would suggest the sentence read:

Expert X says that Clinton, a policy wonk, was one of the two best campaigners in recent decades.

As a result of working through this debate, I checked the "sources" for this claim. The current source is not really a source but a link to the results of a keyword search from a search engine. These are quotes from the top three sources on the search engine provided by previous researcher:

"Bill Clinton's the best campaigner I've seen in my life," said Tom McGrath of Pepperell, Mass., who plans to support Hillary Clinton "on her own merits." -- Concord Monitor Online (Tom McGrath is some average guy at a Clinton rally.)

"the best campaigner there ever was"--David Matthews...Longtime friend of Clinton

“What John Edwards had going for him is first of all he’s the best campaigner I’ve seen since Bill Clinton. His speech is the most fantastic stump speech.” -- DAVID BROOKS. (This appears to be a Democratic campaign site of some sort.)

The next reference is entitled: "Rush Limba sic. - Lying Nazi Whore". It's a random collection of thoughts attesting the poster's political opinions regarding Rush Limbaugh's flaws. One of the quatrains mentions the phrase "best campaigner of the 20th Century".

I gave up research after this, because it does not appear that the sources support the claim made by the sentence. I would prefer to see this sentence removed until these claims can be supported by expert opinion. Will Nesbitt 07:03, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

the experts agree on Reagan and Clinton's campaign prowess and CZ reflects that. It's not at all controversial. Richard Jensen 14:01, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Reagan's brilliance is not relevant and thus shouldn't be mentioned. Clinton's brilliance is not particularly controversial, but it is an opinion. Opinions must be ascribed to experts and not to CZ. Please find a reference that testifies to Clinton's brilliance. The previous source was very poor work. I have said repeatedly, it's fine to quote the opinions of Jensen or Moyers or Tom McGrath or David Matthews (above) regarding Clinton's brilliance. CZ is not neutral and our work here is exceeding difficult if we devolve into a place to argue opinions, rather than a place to report facts. Will Nesbitt 14:07, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Relevance

Proposition: This sentence "Clinton has become a major fundraiser and campaigner for his wife, with his special appeal to the African American vote to neutralize her main opponent, Barak Obama" is very nearly factual, but is mostly editorial. A better sentence would be: "Currently, Clinton is a major fundraiser and campaigner for his wife." With a source to support this claim."

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

I'm starting to this this new template is somewhat burdensome and doesn't really add much to the process, but maybe I'm not understanding how it should work. Will Nesbitt 13:57, 5 August 2007 (CDT)