Talk:Osama bin Laden

Article name

He's usually given as Osama bin Laden, isn't he? (The 'bin' means 'son of' in Arabic, so I often see it lower-cased.)

You are absolutely correct about the "bin". Good catch.

"Usama Bin Laden" is the usual spelling used by the Department of Defense. I am not wedded to this spelling, over other spellings.

Cheers! George Swan 14:37, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I did a quick Google, to see which was more common, and "Usama" gets 285K, "Osama" 10.8M. Is there a standard for the transliteration of Arabic names (I know Chinese and Japanese have these, but don't know so much about Arabic) that would prefer one or the other? If not, we should probably move it to comport with common usage. J. Noel Chiappa 15:08, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

PS: Restricting it to pages in English gives 344K for "Usama bin Laden" and 670K for "Osama". Less of a difference, but still significant. "Osama bin Ladin" ('i' instead of 'e') gets 179K, and "Usama" only 35K. J. Noel Chiappa 15:14, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I have created a redirect from Osama and renamed this one, as I think we all agree on these naming issues. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:04, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

As I see it, this is a Romanization issue. We will want to have the article live at the proper transliteration of bin Laden's name, with redirects from all of the other common spellings. Until we get someone who does MSA, though, we'll just have to muddle through. Brian P. Long 15:21, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

What's an MSA? I took a quick look to see if there was a 'preferred' transliteration system, but don't seem to see that there is one (there are several, but none seems to be preferred). J. Noel Chiappa 15:29, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Sorry-- MSA stands for Modern Standard Arabic, also known as Fusha. MSA is something akin to the BBC pronunciation of Arabic, although my understanding is that the differences between MSA and the regional dialects can be pretty stark. The pronunciation also varies depending on the region, so there may be a "proper" (MSA) way to say bin Laden's name, and also a Yemeni-Saudi pronunciation. We'll just have to wait for someone with the requisite experience. Brian P. Long 15:45, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I don't think expertise is required in titling this entry. I think user expectations (as with the bizarrely named World War II, Holocaust article). Article names should be descriptive - and currently the vast majority of writers in the English language use "Osama", not "Usama". The Google statistics given by J. Noel Chiappa are only one part of this. The British Library's Integrated Catalogue lists 83 books if you search for "osama bin laden" and three books if you search for "usama bin laden". Google News returns 132 hits for "usama" and 11,795 for "osama" - and the latter includes results from major news agencies and publications including AFP, BBC, AP, Washington Post, the Telegraph of London, Time, Slate, ABC, the New York Times and the Economist. It is also the usage of publications from the British government, the United Nations and the various institutions of the European Union. Dictionaries and encyclopedias don't prescribe usage, nor do they try to formalize it. Thus, even if "Usama" is the more sensible way to Romanize the Arabic, we aren't deciding which is the most sensible, we are describing how it is. See this Slate article. Conclusion: Osama bin Laden as home for article on the al-Qaeda leader with Usama bin Laden as redirect. --Tom Morris 17:08, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I disagree completely. THe article is redirected from the other more common spelling, so there is no difficulty in locating it. Our interest should be in providing an accurate transliteration of non-Latin names, such that they resemble the original pronunciation. The fact that people across the English speaking world thrive on incorrect spellings and wrong "facts" is not relevant. My non-expert understanding is that the Arabic is nowhere near the English open "O" sound and is closer to the unstressed "U" sound, thus making this a better transliteration. We use expert knowledge on CZ, not populist beliefs, so we do need expertise on this matter. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:56, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

al-Qaeda or al-Qaida?

Similarly the United States Department of Defense spells the group "al Qaida" whereas "al Qaeda" seems to be the more popular name in general usage... George Swan 17:49, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

It should be al-Qa'idah as a formal transliteration, and I can recall Tony Blair diligently pronouncing it as such [unlike Bush, who doesn;t appear to know how to pronounce anything]. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:01, 4 May 2008 (CDT)