Talk:Global warming: Difference between revisions

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==Climate change?==
{{subpages}}
Shouldn't this be under "climate change"? This may be purely semantic, but if global warming is a cyclic phenomenon, then it seems we would only have periods of of warming, followed by periods of stabilization, followed by more warming (i.e. it would only ever get hotter). But this article describes periods of worming alternating with periods of cooling. Since it would be wasteful to have a separate article on global cooling, one article should address both under a holistic title. Cheers! [[User:Brian Dean Abramson|Brian Dean Abramson]] 23:47, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
Rather surprised to find no comments on such a potentially controversial topic. I've edited this fairly aggressively and welcome any comments. There are some broken links still, and some updates would be appropriate.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 13:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
:I don't get to follow this debate much, but do I understand correctly that the terminology is turning toward [[Global climate change]] rather than Global warming so as to not confuse those who don't understand why they might be getting colder. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 14:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


:When I think of 'global warming' the evidence for warming being related to human activity comes to mind, rather than the general phenomenon of cyclical warming. Shouldn't this page more obviously point to information about current climate change? [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 00:22, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
::I've made a redirect, but they may be two different things, so feel free to correct me.  The question is whether we would want to move this article to [[Global climate change]] instead. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 14:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


::You're both right, of course. Perhaps an article on [[climate change]] or [[climate cycles]] would be better than what I have. As for the role of human activity, I propose an article on [[Anthropogenic global warming]] which would present the most popular current theories; and which would present any evidence in favor of these theories, as well as any facts which contradict them.
:::I think that 'climate change' is a vague term which most often pops up to appease global warming deniers. It shouldn't be used unless the article is about all forms of change in the climate - natural or unnatural, cooling or warming, pressure patterns for whatever reason, etc. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 19:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


::But Larry said it's controversial, so should we even get into this at all? I'm a new writer here, and maybe I should wait until I have a few "approved" articles under my belt before tackling a hard subject like this. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 09:09, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
== Climategate? ==


:::Clearly your history precedes you ! But i'd say there is no harm in getting started.  The climate editors can always choose not to approve it, right? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:15, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
Why is there no mention of this controversy? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy]. [[User:Sandy Harris|Sandy Harris]] 05:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
:Is it really controversial, though? It is a subject that has been heavily politicized in recent years, but that's not the same thing. This isn't my field, but it's my impression that whatever scientific controversy there may have been is all but settled. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 09:37, 10 May 2007 (CDT)


::If it had been settled, then there would be no more controversy. The reason some people are still touting anthropogenic global warming theory over the scientifically established natural warming theory, is that the science of natural warming is not settled. Some very prominent journals have even taken stands against natural warming; one even refused point blank to publish an anti-anthropogenic paper - after it had passed peer review - on the grounds that would be "of no interest" to their readers.  
:Not sure whether or how to handle it. This refers to a Wikileaks release of leaked e-mails from staff of the Climate Research Unit in East Anglia between academics involved in climate research, They included e-mails that were extremely disparaging about skeptical scientists, e-mails that favoored resisting calls to make all data and analyses openly available, and e-mails that discussed ways of presenting data to most effectively highlight the climate changes - these e- mails used words like "trick" to describe presentational techniques. After the relevations there were several inquiries into the CRU that endorsed the science and the conclusions but criticised the lack of openness. It's an issue about the politics/sociology of science, but I guess I thought it really doesn't cast any light on global warming - unless you're a conspiracy theorist.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 09:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


::When the facts are all laid out clearly, then the theories which are shown to be in accordance with the facts will eventually become accepted. Until then, wishful thinking, prejudice and partisanship will prevail. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:54, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
::It depends whether this article is about the science of global warming and whether it's happening (clue: yes) or whether it is really about the way the debate over global warming has occurred. I think the former for the reason Gareth points out above. The UEA 'controversy' could be covered elsewhere in an article about the political responses to global warming. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 19:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


:::I agree - "settled" is a loaded term which implies that no open questions rationally remain on the subject. As an example, I'd say it is "settled" that the Holocaust occurred in Germany in the 1940s, and anyone who denies that it happened is speaking irrationally. Likewise, it is "settled" that temperatures are rising, and I think we can all agree that humans necessarily have some impact on this, but it is not "settled" whether the human contribution is akin to throwing a bucket of water into a rainstorm, or whether it ''is'' the rainstorm. I am inclined to think it is the latter - but I have no expertise in climatology! [[User:Brian Dean Abramson|Brian Dean Abramson]] 11:11, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
::::The scientists in question above were investigated and their data was found to be sound.  Unfortunately, scientists and mathematicians use the word "trick" to mean something different than lay persons. For example, for very small angles, sin(theta) ~= theta, a valid true "trick" that physicists use very often when the fourth or fifth decimal place does not matter.  It was this type of trick that they were referring to. As scientists, they did try to present their findings in the most favorable terms, but did so in a mathematically and scientifically reliable fashion. As to withholding some data, that is also valid as they are working on long-term projects, and the collection of that data was expensive and will be used in the future. It is true that they used less than flattering terms to describe some of their adversaries, but whose email is completely PC these days? That is merely unprofessional behavior brought into the light. [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 19:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


::::Well, let's not say "settled" (= it would be irrational to question it) but "there is a growing consensus among climatologists" (this is either factual or not, and is capable of being documented).  I don't think the choice is between "facts" and "partisanship" -- the Earth's climate is an enormously complex thermodynamic system, and as we seek to understand its workings, it's to be expected that there will be some differences in inetrpretation among experts who study it.  We can't speak of "facts" here in any absolute sense, but we can accurately report how current climate data is collected, analyzed, and used to support the prevailing views out there. [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 11:17, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
:::::Not to mention there has been numerous investigations done: by the university, by the British government (through the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee) and by Penn State, which have said it was all manufactured. Nothing wrong with having an article on it ([[Wikipedia]] does) but probably not something to be focussed on heavily inside the main global warming article. —[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] ([[User talk:Tom Morris|talk]]) 09:08, 11 May 2011 (CDT)


== Fred Singer ==
== Plausible-looking criticism ==


I don't think that Fred Singer (see a brief outline on him [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Singer here]) should be quoted -- or if so, should be the ''only'' one quoted, about climate change.  Though he clearly has some scientific qualifications, he's a bit out of his field, as well as far, far out of the current scientific consensus among climatiologists.  Of course, in the interests of neutrality, his views may well deserve mention somewhere in this entry, but not as a sole authority. [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 10:42, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
I am not certain this is valid, but it seems worth pointing out. [http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/04/07/climate-models-go-cold/] [[User:Sandy Harris|Sandy Harris]] 20:45, 9 May 2011 (CDT)


:He has a PhD in physics, and he got the satellite program that records earth's climate from space. He also writes clearly, has published peer-reviewed articles, and is retired. He is beholden to no one, and no threat of "withdrawing funds" can influence his work.
:Looks like the usual denial to me. Now if it were from a site called, say, environmentalpost.com... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 21:34, 9 May 2011 (CDT)


:We can also quote active university scientists like [[Richard Lindzen]] (MIT) and [[Sallie Baliunas]] (Harvard).
== Doonesbury ==
 
[http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/09/25] [[User:Sandy Harris|Sandy Harris]] 04:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
:The latest poll I saw of climatologists indicates much less than overwhelming support for anthropogenic global warming theory.
:*A 1997 survey by American Viewpoint found that state climatologists believe that global warming is largely a natural phenomenon by a margin of 44 to 17 percent. [http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA218.html]
 
:Better yet, we can check the papers these scientists cite in the popular treatments and double-check everything. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 10:49, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 
::Well, a PhD in physics doesn't necessarily a ''climatologist'' make, though it may make a perfectly good physicist.  But my understanding of our [[CZ:Neutrality Policy|neutrality policy]] is that we should reflect the current state of knowledge in the field, state where there are well-known points of disagreement, and if two reasonably valuid sides are seen to exist, say as much and give some account of each.  I don't think we're in the business of conducting polls among scientists (or interpreting such polls); that's not how scientific knowledge works.  The entry should outline the nature, hsitory, etc. of global climate, show significant recent research, and summarize the range of views -- not excluding, but certainly not focusing exclusively on, global warming skeptics.  [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 11:08, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 
:::p.s the poll you cite was conducted by the National Center for Public Policy Research, a conservative think-tank that lobbies against those who feel global warming is a problem.  [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 11:11, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 
== Useful links ==
 
There are good starting points for this argument. Two I may suggest are:
 
[http://www.realclimate.org/ Real climate], a blog held by top-level scientists, some involved in the IPCC (link below)
 
[http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html The IPCC 4th report], document of a panel, including the best climate scientists around, on the current state of knowledge about recent global warming.
 
Both are pro-anthropogenic, I don't know links to contrarians.
 
--[[User:Nereo Preto|Nereo Preto]] 11:33, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 
== Scientific opinion ==
 
There's an article at Wikipedia summarizing [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change scientific opinion on climate change], that might be worth consulting. If nothing else, it illustrates that there is widespread support in the scientific community for the idea that human activity has had a significant effect on climate change.  [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 11:41, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Latest revision as of 23:48, 25 September 2011

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Rather surprised to find no comments on such a potentially controversial topic. I've edited this fairly aggressively and welcome any comments. There are some broken links still, and some updates would be appropriate.Gareth Leng 13:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't get to follow this debate much, but do I understand correctly that the terminology is turning toward Global climate change rather than Global warming so as to not confuse those who don't understand why they might be getting colder. D. Matt Innis 14:27, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I've made a redirect, but they may be two different things, so feel free to correct me. The question is whether we would want to move this article to Global climate change instead. D. Matt Innis 14:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
I think that 'climate change' is a vague term which most often pops up to appease global warming deniers. It shouldn't be used unless the article is about all forms of change in the climate - natural or unnatural, cooling or warming, pressure patterns for whatever reason, etc. John Stephenson 19:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Climategate?

Why is there no mention of this controversy? [1]. Sandy Harris 05:03, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Not sure whether or how to handle it. This refers to a Wikileaks release of leaked e-mails from staff of the Climate Research Unit in East Anglia between academics involved in climate research, They included e-mails that were extremely disparaging about skeptical scientists, e-mails that favoored resisting calls to make all data and analyses openly available, and e-mails that discussed ways of presenting data to most effectively highlight the climate changes - these e- mails used words like "trick" to describe presentational techniques. After the relevations there were several inquiries into the CRU that endorsed the science and the conclusions but criticised the lack of openness. It's an issue about the politics/sociology of science, but I guess I thought it really doesn't cast any light on global warming - unless you're a conspiracy theorist.Gareth Leng 09:35, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
It depends whether this article is about the science of global warming and whether it's happening (clue: yes) or whether it is really about the way the debate over global warming has occurred. I think the former for the reason Gareth points out above. The UEA 'controversy' could be covered elsewhere in an article about the political responses to global warming. John Stephenson 19:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
The scientists in question above were investigated and their data was found to be sound. Unfortunately, scientists and mathematicians use the word "trick" to mean something different than lay persons. For example, for very small angles, sin(theta) ~= theta, a valid true "trick" that physicists use very often when the fourth or fifth decimal place does not matter. It was this type of trick that they were referring to. As scientists, they did try to present their findings in the most favorable terms, but did so in a mathematically and scientifically reliable fashion. As to withholding some data, that is also valid as they are working on long-term projects, and the collection of that data was expensive and will be used in the future. It is true that they used less than flattering terms to describe some of their adversaries, but whose email is completely PC these days? That is merely unprofessional behavior brought into the light. David E. Volk 19:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Not to mention there has been numerous investigations done: by the university, by the British government (through the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee) and by Penn State, which have said it was all manufactured. Nothing wrong with having an article on it (Wikipedia does) but probably not something to be focussed on heavily inside the main global warming article. —Tom Morris (talk) 09:08, 11 May 2011 (CDT)

Plausible-looking criticism

I am not certain this is valid, but it seems worth pointing out. [2] Sandy Harris 20:45, 9 May 2011 (CDT)

Looks like the usual denial to me. Now if it were from a site called, say, environmentalpost.com... Ro Thorpe 21:34, 9 May 2011 (CDT)

Doonesbury

[3] Sandy Harris 04:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

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