Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 2

OK, moved in the rewrite and archived earlier talk

Still improving the article and waiting for more reference books to arrive, but I believe it to be a considerable improvement. Both National Socialism and The Holocaust also need work. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I just compared the first paragraph of the new version with the first paragraph of the "old" version. The old version is much better suited as an introduction: It does what an introduction should do -- it summarises the main facts, while the new one compares him with Stalin, a comparison that (at most) makes sense in context much later. --Peter Schmitt 02:03, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. The best Citizendium introductions to complex historical subjects synthesize and contextualize. A major thrust of Hitler scholarship, from about 1970 onward, is more explanation. By that, I don't mean psychohistory, but what the functionalists call how he exercised power. Contrasts with Stalin are quite important in this. The point that there would have been no Naziism without Hitler is critical.

Specifically, which crucial facts are missing from the introduction? What do you define as "main facts"? Howard C. Berkowitz 02:28, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Taking the Introduction sentence by sentence "As a leader, he differed from the other great dictator of the time, Joseph Stalin, in that his authority was based on charisma rather than ideology." This sententence introduces the controversial claim that Stalin's authority was based on ideology; - he was a notably unimpressive ideologist, and I thought it was rather more conventional to believe that Stalin's authority was based on terror. The next sentence reads "In other words, Nazi ideology was what Hitler believed." In what sense is this the previous sentence "in other words"? This sentence is a non-sequitur and expresses another controversial claim that is not developed in the article - the claim that there was no ideological basis to National Socialism. It goes on: ""Like Stalin, Hitler deliberately gave overlapping responsibilities to subordinates, keeping them from growing too powerful and making him the ultimate authority." Deliberately gave them rather than accidentally? And is there anything particularly unusual in giving overlapping power to subordinates, or anything about that in particular that stops them getting too powerful, or anything unusual in a leader being the ultimate authority? You say that the point that "there would have been no Naziism without Hitler" is critical. Well, those of us who have worried about the lessons of history can all rest easy then - but this critical point is not argued in the article that follows. Nor does that article make those contrasts with Stalin that you say are quite important - so important that they appear in the lead. Clearly we need an academic expert in History for this article, but Peter's comments seem obviously true - the present lead introduces a controversial comparison that the article does not in fact go on to explore. Gareth Leng 10:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, Gareth, if you have read the addition of Bullock's work on Hitler and Stalin, or the earlier woer from Nyomarkay, or the functionalist vs. intentionalist debate in the Historiography section. Perhaps some of that material needs to move to the lede.

Given the amount of cited academic sources, I'm a little concerned about your insistence on an academic expert. From a military history aspect, this has been an interest of mine for about 40 years, with substantial time in the U.S. Natioal Archives (Suitland and Washington) with primary historical sources. The Historiography section perhaps can be strengthened and some moved to the lede, but I think there is substantial support. May I remind you that I am a Politics, Military and History Editor? I mention politics because since roughly the mid-seventies, the formal literature in international relations and governance has considerably rethought totalitarianism.

Ideology=

May I ask for some academic quality sources on National Socialism being a well-defined ideology, as opposed to perhaps the interpretations of Hitler from the intentionalist school of Hitler historiography? Howard C. Berkowitz 11:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Not a problem; have you thought of using Google Scholar to help you? These might be a place to start

• [http://www.getcited.org/pub/101872775 The crisis of German ideology: Intellectual origins of the Third Reich
• Friedrich Ratzel and the Origins of Lebensraum by Woodruff D. Smith
• National Socialism: totalitarianism or fascism? W Sauer - The American Historical Review, 1967
• Reactionary modernism J Herf - Theory and Society, 1981 Gareth Leng 14:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a basic question here, perhaps which might go to the forums. In the more formal literature of international relations, I think you'll find that to be an ideology, something must, at least, be actionable, or translate into a set of governmental functions. If it can't do that, it's political philosophy. Marx and Engels produced political philosophy while Lenin produced ideology. It's harder to trace for the US, but Voltaire, Thomas Paine and others produced political philosophy, where the Federalist Papers (and Anti-Federalist Papers) were sufficiently specific ideology to lead to the writing of the Constitution.

In the case of the Nazis, I have been careful, for example, to describe Alfred Rosenberg's writings as philosophy, even though they were occasionally called ideology, because it is extremely difficult to identify them as causal. Especially in Hitler historiography, one can think of ideology within the Intentionalist school, where at least goals could be identified.

Since I don't have JSTOR access, I can't look at the two articles there. The Springerlink article is also behind a paywall. As an aside, the problem of Deep Web, or non-open sources, is an issue we will sometime have to address. Nevertheless, that is one reason I tend not to use Google Scholar, although, for appropriate topics, I extensively use MEDLINE since it's likely I can find free full text. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

LL

Comments

The first and most prominent section is the wrong place for discussing "Historiography". It belongs to the end of the article.

This is an article on Hitler, the person. For this purpose there are far too many details of war activities included. (There is, of course, a place for such details in separate articles).

--Peter Schmitt 11:27, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I put Historiography first because that makes the Citizendium article something that is unique, not just another general article that restates old material. Instead, it sets the context for the article, and introduces how contemporary scholarship will be used, throughout the discussion, to approach the never-satisfactory matter of explaining Hitler's actions.

As far as too many details of war, I find it difficult to respond. Had Hitler never been engaged in war, at best, he would be remembered as a right-wing politician. The military examples, in no way, are a general discussion of World War Two. They are, however, serious attempts to explain why Hitler's particular personality and decisions affected the direction of the war, or, especially in the case of the Sudetenland, bluffed and avoided war. Other major aspects of the war, however, are not discussed at all. I've also been careful not to discuss the operational details of the Holocaust, which were delegated. I try to focus on where Hitler's decisions were essential to the outcome.

While he was a demonically efficient politician, and had striking insights in early war strategy, he was, in broad terms, a terribly bad general. I recommend Ikle's Every War Must End for case studies of how starting wars are often disastrous for the initiating side. Had Germany consolidated its gains after the Battle of France, for example, attacked neither Britain nor France, and done its best to avoid provoking the United States, I am not alone in believing that Germany would have had an excellent chance of dominating continental Europe and making it extremely defensible. It was Hitler's decisions that caused what Ikle calls "strategic overreach", taking on too many enemies and ensuring his failure.

Now, I am not opposed to putting some specific time period into separate, subordinate articles. That is very much what I did in Wars of Vietnam. Especially when actions are interrelated over time, however, it is much easier to write the article with most source material and then start moving text into subarticles. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)