Talk:Heterodox economics movement: Difference between revisions

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|                abc = Economic Heterodox Tradition
 
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== Note ==
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|                cat3 = Politics
The most active contributor to this article, [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|João Prado Ribeiro Campos]], deleted his comments. Therefore, some of the comments that are left, below, will be hard to follow, since they are responses to deleted comments. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:34, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
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|                  by = [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 07:06, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
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== a couple questions ==
== a couple questions ==
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Could the article define what it means by "heterodox"? What are they heterodox in comparison to (was it the same in the early 19th century as it is today)? Also, all of the trends mentioned seem to be various forms of socialism. Would a more specific title perhaps be appropriate?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 17:29, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
Could the article define what it means by "heterodox"? What are they heterodox in comparison to (was it the same in the early 19th century as it is today)? Also, all of the trends mentioned seem to be various forms of socialism. Would a more specific title perhaps be appropriate?—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 17:29, 25 March 2007 (CDT)


::So far yes. The split between the "orthodox" traditions and the "heterodox" traditions begin with Rousseau and start widening more and more. When we arrive in late XXth century you will feel more confortable about the term "heterodox". 
::Wait for the baritone, the article is in its very first stages...[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|Guru2001]] 21:47, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
:::PS - I think your doubts you will be cleared once we do the "Ricardian Socialists". There the meaning of "heterodox" becames closer to today's.
[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|Guru2001]] 21:57, 25 March 2007 (CDT)


::Would not it be clearer to speak about alternative economic system arising as responses to failures of mainstream classical and neoclassical economics?
::Would not it be clearer to speak about alternative economic system arising as responses to failures of mainstream classical and neoclassical economics?
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Also, I assume that "Economic heterodox tradition" is a term of art among economists? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:26, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
Also, I assume that "Economic heterodox tradition" is a term of art among economists? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:26, 25 March 2007 (CDT)


::Point 1> I did not understand what you meant.
On point (1): you wrote, for example, [http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/rousseau.htm '''Jean-Jacques Rousseau'''].  This is a link that points to an external source.  But in that place, instead of a link to an external source, we want a link to our own article, even if it does not exist yet: [[Jean-Jacques Rousseau]].  We place links to external articles in an "External links" section in the endmatter.  Please see [[CZ:Article mechanics]] about endmatter. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:46, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 
::Point 2> Yes, it is. But as everything in Economics, some certainly will not agree...
 
[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|Guru2001]] 21:49, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 
 
:::PS - If you want to get realy ''"confused"'' about ''' "heterodox traditions"''', read the following:
 
 
:::''I do not wish to imply that individuals working mostly within '''heterodox traditions''' in economics could not themselves make a contribution to philosophical ontology. On philosophical matters the flow of insights can be both ways between projects in ontology and the '''heterodox traditions''' in economics. Indeed, currently there is real blossoming of insightful output by heterodox economists and others critically interacting with and seeking to shape (at the least the application of) the sort of ontological perspective described above, a perspective often systematised as critical realism in economics. See in particular Arestis, Brown and Sawyer, 203; Beaulier and Boettke, 2004; Davis, 2004; Dow, 1999, 2003; Downward, Finch and Ramsey, 2003; Downward and Mearman, 2003a, 2003b; Dunn, 2004; Finch and McMaster (2003); Graça Moura, Mario da, 2004; Hands, 2004; Hargreaves Heap 2004; Kuiper, 2004; Lee, 2003; Lewis, 2004a, 2004b; McKenna and Zannoni, 1999; Nell, 2004; Olsen, 2003; Pagano, 2004; Pinkstone, 2003; Rotheim, 1999; Setterfield, 2003; Smithin, 2004.''
 
:::Full text:
 
http://pdfdownload.bofd.net/pdf2html.php?url=http://www.bresserpereira.org.br/Terceiros/05.5.Heterodox_Economics.pd
 
On point (1): you wrote, for example, [http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/rousseau.htm '''Jean-Jacques Rousseau'''].  This is a link that points to an external source.  But in that place, instead of a link to an external source, we want a link to our own article, even if it does not exist yet: [[Jean-Jacques Rousseau]].  We place links to external articles in an "External links" section in the endmatter.  Please see [[CZ:Article Mechanics]] about endmatter. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:46, 25 March 2007 (CDT)


===Article title===
===Article title===


I'm not an editor or scholar in economics (I do have my BA in this subject), but I don't recall hearing the term "economic heterodox tradition", precisely, before. Also, it gets no google hits at all.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 16:21, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
I'm not an editor or scholar in economics (I do have my BA in this subject), but I don't recall hearing the term "economic heterodox tradition", precisely, before. Also, it gets no google hits at all.—[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 16:21, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
==On the Economis ''per se'' issue...==
A previous Nobel Memorial Prize winner in economic science gives a more critical report:
::''"Page after page of professional economic journals are filled with mathematical formulas leading the reader from sets of more or less plausible but entirely arbitrary assumptions to precisely stated but irrelevant theoretical conclusions.....Year after year economic theorists continue to produce scores of mathematical models and to explore in great detail their formal properties; and the econometricians fit algebraic functions of all possible shapes to essentially the same sets of data without being able to advance, in any perceptible way, a systematic understanding of the structure and the operations of a real economic system (...)"''
::(Wassily Leontief, 1982, p. 104).
[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|Guru2001]] 07:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


== Begin with a definition ==
== Begin with a definition ==


Please, do see [[CZ:Article Mechanics]]; articles should begin with definitions.  "Heterodox tradition" means something in economics; what does it mean?  Anything more precise than "socialism"? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:15, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
Please, do see [[CZ:Article mechanics]]; articles should begin with definitions.  "Heterodox tradition" means something in economics; what does it mean?  Anything more precise than "socialism"? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:15, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
 
::''"heterodox" in the sense of a demarcation from the prevailing mainstream in Economics''. It includes (but it is not restricted to) the various strands of socialism. For more information see: [http://www.orgs.bucknell.edu/afee/HetJrnls.htm ''Heterodox Economics Journals (Scholarly)''] at [http://www.orgs.bucknell.edu/afee/hetecon.htm Heterodox Economics Web][[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 14:47, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 
===Begin with a simple definition.. Sounds easy...===
 
::While the subtext and group identities of '''"heterodoxy"''' are blurry around the edges and like a ven diagram include groups who overlap differently with the core ideas, we think a workable set of principles can be identified that constitute heterodox approaches to economics.  Among the concerns we would put in the heterodox core are the following:
 
:::1) A substantive rather than procedural definition of economics, i.e., a definition of economics by its subject matter rather than by its techniques of analysis (e.g., constrained optimization).  This concern de-privileges mathematics as a language and invites attention to the potential contributions of history, anthropology and other social sciences to economic analysis.
 
:::2) A concern with the nature of human well being, in broader terms than GDP maximization (HDI  maximization ??)<small>http://hdr.undp.org/hdr2006/statistics/</small>, and an expectation that economic analysis will highlight how economic activities affect well being.  This concern tends to emphasize the importance of topics such as income and wealth distribution, the quality of work life, the viability of community, and the requirements of sustainability instead of the de facto privileging of GDP maximization in neoclassical economics.
 
:::3) A concern with how economic activities affect both individual experience and the construction of society.  This concern invites skepticism about the ability of methodological individualism to adequately analyze economic events and invites a more nuanced and potentially skeptical view of the merits of regulated and unregulated markets for organizing economic activity.  The concern also invites analysis of capitalism as a social as well as economic system. 
 
:::4) A concern with the ethical issues surrounding economic activities.  This concern calls into question the oversimplified way neoclassical economists differentiate positive from normative economics, and encourages increased evaluation of economic outcomes from an ethical perspective.
 
:::5) A rejection of neoclassical theory's tendency to abstract from social contexts, be it with respect to institutional arrangements, human motivation (homo economicus), uncertainty and imperfect information, the assumption of perfect competition, the specificity of a monetary economy, etc.
 
[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 16:53, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


== Locke ==
== Locke ==
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...is a ''utopian socialist?''  Huh? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:35, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
...is a ''utopian socialist?''  Huh? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:35, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


:Humhum...


::Locke also proposed a theory of property in his 1690 Treatises.  The right to property, Locke claims, '''is derived from the labor of those who work it.  More specifically, he perceives that as "labor" is naturally "owned" by the person in whom it is embodied, then consequently anything that labor is applied to, is similarly "owned" by the laborer -- a rather proto-Marxian notion.''' Locke's "natural labor theory of property" stands in stark contrast to that of Hobbes, who conceived of property merely as a State guarantee, and of Grotius, who contended that property emerges from social consent.
Yes, but none of that makes him a ''utopian socialist'' (of course!). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:24, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


Yes, but none of that makes him a ''utopian socialist'' (of course!). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:24, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


::Let us agree that Locke is a proto-socialist. I have changed the section title to '''"Utopians and Socialists"''', for better clarity; actually it it is  a timeline, begining with Utopia. I feel Locke's seminal positions on property are important to explain later authors, although they are not central to his work.[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 16:40, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:::The conventional Marxist view of Locke is that he was a proto-capitalist. In particular, his view of property is seen as providing the moral base for mercantilism and accumulation of money. This was important because Locke's philosophy is grounded in the Christian religion, in which moral framework the accumulation of perishable goods is a mortal sin. The invention of money, however, removed this moral obligation from mankind because money does not perish [alas] and with this sleight of hand, Locke was able to justify highly unequal income and property distribution. I fail to see either utopian or socialist thinking in his Second Treatise. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 16:56, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:::The conventional Marxist view of Locke is that he was a proto-capitalist. In particular, his view of property is seen as providing the moral base for mercantilism and accumulation of money. This was important because Locke's philosophy is grounded in the Christian religion, in which moral framework the accumulation of perishable goods is a mortal sin. The invention of money, however, removed this moral obligation from mankind because money does not perish [alas] and with this sleight of hand, Locke was able to justify highly unequal income and property distribution. I fail to see either utopian or socialist thinking in his Second Treatise. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 16:56, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
::But surely he's a proto-capitalist as much as a proto-socialist, because of his emphasis on private property and individual rights. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:11, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
::But surely he's a proto-capitalist as much as a proto-socialist, because of his emphasis on private property and individual rights. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:11, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
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This article right now, as useful as it might be, takes the form of a list of thinkers who, it is alleged (but by whom?), are part of the "heterodox tradition."  But in virtually none of this is it actually explained what the heterodox tradition is--and what members of this "tradition" might have in common that warrant us calling it a "tradition" at all--and why it matters.  It is also important, I should think, to detail any ''criticisms'' of this tradition, if there are any in currency.
This article right now, as useful as it might be, takes the form of a list of thinkers who, it is alleged (but by whom?), are part of the "heterodox tradition."  But in virtually none of this is it actually explained what the heterodox tradition is--and what members of this "tradition" might have in common that warrant us calling it a "tradition" at all--and why it matters.  It is also important, I should think, to detail any ''criticisms'' of this tradition, if there are any in currency.


I don't understand what the ''difference'' is between the heterodox tradition and socialism, broadly construed (...)
I don't understand what the ''difference'' is between the heterodox tradition and socialism, broadly construed.  The claim is made that "Leading heterodox thinkers have moved beyond the established paradigms of Austrian, Feminist, Institutional-Evolutionary, Marxian, Post Keynesian, Radical, Social, and Sraffian economics," but the article proceeds to give all sorts of Marxian, Radical, Social, etc., thinkers as examples.  The implication, I suppose, is that ''contemporary'' "heterodox thinkers" have "moved beyond" these "established paradigms."  It also doesn't explain ''how'' they have "moved beyond," a claim which I find pretty hard to believe, frankly.  Intellectual fads in every field are all too often just recycled, repackaged, relabelled versions of the same old hash; I doubt economic thinkers are any different.
 
::Let me try to explain in simple words: It is the same difference as between the "container" and the "contents". While all socialist currents are, by nature, "heterodox", not all "heterodox" currents are socialist. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 12:03, 2 May 2007 (CDT)  
 
(...)The claim is made that "Leading heterodox thinkers have moved beyond the established paradigms of Austrian, Feminist, Institutional-Evolutionary, Marxian, Post Keynesian, Radical, Social, and Sraffian economics," but the article proceeds to give all sorts of Marxian, Radical, Social, etc., thinkers as examples.  The implication, I suppose, is that ''contemporary'' "heterodox thinkers" have "moved beyond" these "established paradigms."  It also doesn't explain ''how'' they have "moved beyond," a claim which I find pretty hard to believe, frankly.  Intellectual fads in every field are all too often just recycled, repackaged, relabelled versions of the same old hash; I doubt economic thinkers are any different.
 
::You are asking from me a level o competence that I do not have; you might. Initially this project was to be a "popular" encyclopaedia, a sort of "more precise and reliable" Wikipedia. Now I find myself pushed by you, a Ph.D. in Philosophy,  to  discuss ontological questions with. This is not fair. Nor it is fair the trying, by some, to transform the ontological difficulties inherent to the very heterodoxy to the '''reifying''' (and here the word is used correctly) of the existance of a subtext to promote "pressure" groups", in the article.
 
:::In questioning the nature of heterodox economics, I have advanced and defended four basic theses or contentions. These can be summarised as follows:
 
:::i) The nature of the enduring modern mainstream project which the heterodox traditions continue to oppose, and against which they must ultimately identify themselves as heterodox, is set not in terms of its substantive results or basic units of analysis, but according to its orientation to method. The mainstream project of modern economics just is an insistence, as a discipline-wide principle, that economic phenomena be investigated using only (or almost only) certain mathematical-deductive forms of reasoning.
 
:::ii) The often noted intellectual failings and limitations of this mainstream project arise just because its emphasis on mathematical deductivist reasoning is inappropriate given the nature of social material. In other words, the ontological presuppositions of these methods do not everywhere match the nature of social reality.
 
:::iii) The heterodox opposition is based on a (albeit often no more than implicit) grasping of the fact that the situation expressed in the just noted second contention is the case. In other words, modern heterodoxy is, qua heterodoxy, first and foremost an orientation in ontology.
 
:::iv) The individual heterodox traditions are rendered distinct from each other by their particular substantive orientations, concerns and emphases, not by theoretical claims or results, empirical findings, methodological principles or policy stances.
 
:::The perspective sustained will surely be contested, not least by those economists who prefer to view themselves as heterodox but who believe that mathematical-deductivist reasoning is desirable in itself. But in the absence of any more coherent or empirically adequate thesis on the nature of modern heterodoxy, the broad thesis advanced here does have something to commend it. In particular, the set of contentions defended allows, without any obvious tension, a way of distinguishing the various heterodox traditions collectively from the mainstream and individually from each other, in a manner that does not compromise their coherence as fruitful traditions in economics. (LAWSON, Tony. ''The Nature of Heterodox Economic'', Faculty of Economics and Politics, Cambridge) - referred to in the article. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 13:54, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


Joao, I think we need to get some other economists and political theorists involved here; my feedback is not enough. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:46, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
Joao, I think we need to get some other economists and political theorists involved here; my feedback is not enough. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:46, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


::Do as you please. Curiously though, the Wikipedia, which Citizendium proposes to improve, did no stumble so badly on the "heterodox economics" issue; see their articles on the subject. I am throwing the towel.[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 23:52, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
::Do as you please. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 23:52, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


==Editorial Opinion==
==Editorial Opinion==
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(1) The term "heterodox economic tradition" is not standard, and is therefore being reified by this article.
(1) The term "heterodox economic tradition" is not standard, and is therefore being reified by this article.
::'''Comment:''' If for you "to reify" means the same that it means to me, "To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence", I can only answer: please give me a break !...
:::"......agreement within any given '''heterodox tradition''' on specific alternative theories...claims within any one separate '''heterodox tradition''', while simultaneously rendering...noted that each separate '''heterodox tradition''' has tended to emphasise various......( Camb. J. Econ., July 2006; 30: 483 - 505)
:::"currently this characteristic is only mirrored in the '''heterodox tradition'''. Therefore, the Marxist/non-Marxist divide is now...abyss that divides the orthodoxy from the broad '''heterodox tradition''' in economics, but he is almost insensitive to differences......"( Camb. J. Econ., Nov 2002; 26: 727 - 738.)
:::"In the '''heterodox tradition''', many commentators tend to see, in the huge scale of contemporary financial transactions, the whirlpool of speculation......"( Camb. J. Econ., November 2006; 30: 955 - 979.)
:::"(...)In this journal, L. Randall Wray [1992] has summarized the various approaches to money both in orthodox and '''heterodox traditions''' (...). (Journal article by Louis-Philippe Rochon; ''Journal of Economic Issues'', Vol. 33, 1999)
If '''heterodox tradition''' has ever been actually '''"reified"''' by anybody, it was not by '''Citizendium''', not by this article (how pretentious!....) nor by myself, but by Cambridge University, to say the least. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 12:20, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


(2) The term itself is rather peculiar, in that although a case can be made that the authors listed are not part of the classical tradition, they do not constitute a coherent alternative tradition.  
(2) The term itself is rather peculiar, in that although a case can be made that the authors listed are not part of the classical tradition, they do not constitute a coherent alternative tradition.  
::'''Comment''': But they do! They all have common concerns and focuses, one way or another, in analysing and discussing '''inequality, employment and  economic growth''' as independent problems, as an '''objetive''', as a '''main subject''', not as mere derivative (or a consequence within an automated system) as they are normally viewed in neoclassical systems, where the "invisible hand" is supposed to take care, by itself, of all of those issues.[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 21:39, 1 May 2007 (CDT) 


So why classify them together, other than to make a political point that they all opposed classical economic thought?
So why classify them together, other than to make a political point that they all opposed classical economic thought?
::'''Comment''': Because they do not '''oppose''', they '''propose'''. they propose (rightly or wrongly) solutions for those problems. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 21:39, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
:::Please see also: [http://www.journal-intervention.org/seiten/englisch/download/Lavoie_Intervention_Vol_3_No_1_2006.pdf''Do Heterodox Theories Have Anything in Common? A Post-Keynesian Point of View''] by Marc Lavoie. The wide-spread assertion that non-orthodox schools of thought in economics have only one thing in common – their rejection of mainstream (neoclassical) economics is a ''neoclassical interpretation''' of the heterodox tradition. Marc Lavoie shows, by contrast, that heterodox currents share some fundamental analytical insights. <small> Readable online</small>.
::: If the objective here is to complicate, rather than to simplify, I have added a more technical definition of "heterodox" to the article, which says, with more complicated words, exactly what had already been said in a way a non Ph.D. reader could understand:
::::"mainstream economics may be defined in terms of the "rationality-individualism-equilibrium" nexus, whereas heterodox economics may be defined in terms of a "institutions -history-social structure" nexus. Note that there is a different emphasis in distinguishing mainstream and heterodox economics in this way than is involved in distinguishing them as "closed-system" and an "open-system" approaches respectively (Lawson,1997; Dow, 2000)"[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 23:40, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


(3) The principal moving force, and primary reference point, for this article appears to be a pressure group known as ''Heterodox Economics Web''. I had never heard of this group before, and despite my aversion to neoclassical economics, I am very reluctant to suggest that Citizendium should actively support this group.
(3) The principal moving force, and primary reference point, for this article appears to be a pressure group known as ''Heterodox Economics Web''. I had never heard of this group before, and despite my aversion to neoclassical economics, I am very reluctant to suggest that Citizendium should actively support this group.
::'''Comment''' I strongly disagree with the statement that "The principal moving force, and primary reference point, for this article appears to be a pressure group known as ''Heterodox Economics Web''". '''Absolutely not !''' HEW is one of the various links  of a long series; but in no way the only one,  nor the "main" or the most important. See bellow". [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 20:57, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


(4) I suggest renaming the article, perhaps to '''Alternative approaches to economics'''. The links to the Heterodox Web are fine, in my view, but the recruitment of Citizendium in promoting their name is not ok. I have not looked in detail at the individual entries, but will do so when the time comes to approve the article. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:02, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
(4) I suggest renaming the article, perhaps to '''Alternative approaches to economics'''. The links to the Heterodox Web are fine, in my view, but the recruitment of Citizendium in promoting their name is not ok. I have not looked in detail at the individual entries, but will do so when the time comes to approve the article. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:02, 26 April 2007 (CDT)


::'''Comment:'''Please be advised that I take "the recruitment of Citizendium in promoting their name" as a personal insult, not only to me, but to ''Veritas'' herself [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 00:05, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
:Do as you please, I am out of here. Enjoy your editorial. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 22:50, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 
THIS EDITORIAL OPINION WAS A CONSIDERED RESPONSE. YOU HAVE NOT TOLD ME ANYTHING I WAS NOT PREVIOUSLY AWARE OF, AND IT REMAINS AS THE EDITORIAL OPINION UNTIL SUCH TIME AS ANOTHER ECONOMICS EDITOR RESPONDS.--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 22:50, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
 
::Opinions are opinions and each person has their own. But facts are facts and I do have to strongly disagree when you express opinions which  try to create facts that are not true at all, such as saying "The principal moving force, and primary reference point for this article appears to be a pressure group". It might so appear to you, God knows why, but this is not a fact. This is merely your value judgment, your ideological-polical view of the article, to which, of course, you are entitled, but it is not an academic opinion. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 23:40, 1 May 2007 (CDT)  
 
===Why change the name? ===
 
One can always suggest new names for old things, but why "invent" a name when a name is already used for this purpose ?


:Is the term ""economic heterodox tradition" actually used anywhere outside of Citizendium?&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 21:01, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
:Is the term ""economic heterodox tradition" actually used anywhere outside of Citizendium?&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 21:01, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


::For further clarification on this matter please read: ''The nature of heterodox economics'', Tony Lawson, Faculty of Economics and Politics, Cambridge.  Key Words: Heterodox economics • Orthodox economics • Ontology JEL classifications: A12, B00, B40, B50, B59, referred to in the article's introduction. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 11:39, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
::::As far as I can tell, the phrase "economic heterodox tradition" does not appear on that site.&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 20:47, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


:::Yes, it is, in various places, such as in Cambridge.  Or by, "The History of Economic Thought Website", which is  part of the "The Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis" and is the economic policy research arm of the "New School for Social Research Department of Economics." The activities of the Schwartz Center focus on three issues:  economic growth, employment, and inequality. All links are in the article.   [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 21:14, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
::::::I have been discussing the phrase "economic heterodox tradition". I take you have been discussing the phrase "heterodox tradition" in the context of economics? Regardless, I must note that the "heterodox tradition" does not appear on this page, either; it says "heterodox tradition'''s'''".&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 22:18, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


====JEL: B5 Current Heterodox Approaches====
I am no expert on economics but as an author who can certainly research a topic and hear both sides without really caring which is right, it does appear to me that ''heterodox economics'' is probably not an article title we want, ''except as one that discusses it as a neologism for a relatively small movement of scholars who are attempting to gain momentum and mainstream acceptance of it as an umbrella term''. One of "heterodox economics'" strong advocates, Tony Lawson, even admits to this characterization, [http://www.bresserpereira.org.br/Terceiros/05.5.Heterodox_Economics.pdf see here], while appearing to me to seriously overplay what he says is a lack of scholarly dissent to the new "umbrella term". Even assuming Lawson is correct about such lack of dissent, I'd say he certainly errs in interpreting silence as assent.  ---[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 23:38, 13 May 2007 (CDT)


:::Furthermore the term is listed under JEL: B5. Articles in economics journals are usually classified according to the system used by the Journal of Economic Literature (JEL). The JEL is published quarterly by the American Economic Association and contains survey articles and information on recently published books and dissertations. There are 19 main categories, each of which have numerous subcategories and subsubcategories.
== Next steps ==


* JEL: B5 Current Heterodox Approaches
I'm not sure where the latter list came from.  Regardless, the question is not whether we can identify associations and professors as "heterodox" according to some definition, but whether the term "heterodox tradition" itself is in such common currency as to warrant our using the term uncritically.  The term itself essentially ''asserts'' that there is something worth the name "tradition" here.  That is, particularly if we merely and uncritically list off examples of thinkers in this alleged tradition, as this article does now, we are asserting that these thinkers together compose something that deserves the name "tradition."  But, I suspect, very many economists are capable of denying this, and thus we are obligated by the [[CZ:Neutrality Policy|Neutrality Policy]] to take that fact into account.


* JEL: B50 - General
There is a more serious problem about the article, ''even if'' we are going to have an article titled "economic heterodox tradition."  It is that the article is essentially a history of certain strands of economic thought.  We want such a history, but we do not want the history to go under an idiosyncratic, but rather a neutral, name.  I suspect that if we want an article titled "economic heterodox tradition," we ought to make it about this bit of jargon--what it means, who uses it, and so forth--and leave the economic intellectual history to another article.
* JEL: B51 - Socialist; Marxian; Sraffian
* JEL: B52 - Institutional; Evolutionary
* JEL: B53 - Austrian
* JEL: B54 - Feminist Economics
* JEL: B59 - Other


::Please fellows, all your help is very welcome, but please do some research before saying '''heterodox economics''' does not exist, that '''heterodox economic tradition''' is being "reified by this article" (how pretentious !...)  or is the "invention" of a "pressure group". [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 22:01, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
What we need next from the Economics Workgroup--Martin, if he's the only editor on board--is a decision about exactly what to do.  I doubt we should just leave this article as it sits.


:::But aren't we discussing the name "Economic heterodox tradition"? That doesn't seem to be in use here.&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 00:02, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
João is free, of course, to leave if he wishes.  But the threat of the departure of someone who doesn't get his way should not stop us from giving our honest judgment, if [[CZ:Professionalism|politely expressed]]. João, you must realize that this is a collaborative effort. Also, if you do remain with us, can you use just one depth of indentation within a single reply, and can you please refrain from chopping up other people's comments with your line-by-line replies? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:52, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
   
:::So now the problem is not in "heterodox" anymore, it is with "tradition". OK, '''Tradition''':  "A set of customs or practices. For example, we can speak of Christmas traditions". (or "Heterodox traditions") [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 00:14, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 
::::Also please note that the ''Cambridge Journal of Economics'' classifies the articles which contain the term ''heterodox tradition'' under JEL: B59 - Other[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 12:43, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 
====DEPARTMENTS of ECONOMICS WITH HETERODOX INTERESTS====
 
Here I present a (partial) list of Universities with "DEPARTMENTS of ECONOMICS WITH HETERODOX INTERESTS". Calling this a "pressure group" is either gross misinformation, or bad faith. [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 21:41, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
 
 
'''DEPARTMENTS of ECONOMICS WITH HETERODOX INTERESTS'''
 
American University (US)
 
Laurentian University (Canada)
 
New School University (for Social Research) (US)
 
University of California Riverside (US)
 
University of Leeds (UK)
 
University of Missouri, Kansas City (US)
 
University of Massachussetts, Amherst (US)
 
University of Notre Dame (US)
 
University of Ottawa (Canada)
 
University of Utah (US)
 
RESEARCH CENTRES
 
Center for Economic and Policy Research
 
Center for Economic Policy Analysis (CEPA)
 
Center for Full Employment and Price Stability
 
Economic Policy Institute
 
Financial Markets Center
 
Global Policy Network
 
Levy Economic Insttitute (US)
 
Political Economy Research Institute (PERI)
 
ROBINSON, University of Ottawa
 
'''HETERODOX ASSOCIATIONS'''
 
Association for Heterodox Economics
 
Association for Evolutionary Economics
 
History of Economic Thought (New School)
 
International Association ofr Feminist Economics
 
International Confederations of Association for Pluralism in Economics (ICAPE)
 
International Working Group on Gender, Macroeconomics and International Economics
 
Post-Keynesian Thought Internet Archive


Union for Radical Political Economy
:Do as you please. I do not not work under censorship. All my comments have been removed; enjoy your own Editorial. Farewell [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 22:54, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


== Next steps ==
{{nocomplaints}}


I'm not sure where the latter list came from.  Regardless, the question is not whether we can identify associations and professors as "heterodox" according to some definition, but whether the term "heterodox tradition" itself is in such common currency as to warrant our using the term uncritically.  The term itself essentially ''asserts'' that there is something worth the name "tradition" here.  That is, particularly if we merely and uncritically list off examples of thinkers in this alleged tradition, as this article does now, we are asserting that these thinkers together compose something that deserves the name "tradition."  But, I suspect, very many economists are capable of denying this, and thus we are obligated by the [[CZ:Neutrality Policy|Neutrality Policy]] to take that fact into account.
== Constable Intervention ==


There is a more serious problem about the article, ''even if'' we are going to have an article titled "economic heterodox tradition." It is that the article is essentially a history of certain strands of economic thought.  We want such a history, but we do not want the history to go under an idiosyncratic, but rather a neutral, name. I suspect that if we want an article titled "economic heterodox tradition," we ought to make it about this bit of jargon--what it means, who uses it, and so forth--and leave the economic intellectual history to another article.
Gentlemen, I have removed some content from this talk page for various reasons related to Citizendium's [[CZ:Professionalism]] policy.  Please take a step back and realize that we are all here for the same purpose.  I have no interest in content and my purpose is strictly to assure that we have a comfortable working environment for all.  If there is a content issue, please refer back to the editorial workgroup for guidance. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 22:03, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


What we need next from the Economics Workgroup--Martin, if he's the only editor on board--is a decision about exactly what to do.  I doubt we should just leave this article as it sits.
==New start==
Alright, I am no economist, and certainly do not care personally about "heterodox economics", but I can certainly research any topic I please and have what I hope is a pretty solid handle on neutrality.  I noticed the contentious history here and decided to put on my author hat a bit.


João is free, of course, to leave if he wishes.  But the threat of the departure of someone who doesn't get his way should not stop us from giving our honest judgment, if [[CZ:Professionalism|politely expressed]].  João, you must realize that this is a collaborative effort.  Also, if you do remain with us, can you use just one depth of indentation within a single reply, and can you please refrain from chopping up other people's comments with your line-by-line replies? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:52, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
I may be wrong, but I ''think'' I get the gist of "heterodox economics" pretty well.  If I do, maybe the changes I made to this stub, still a stub, will help set the stage for a neutral article on this topic.


::Critique is essential to science, I do not object to critiques or to critics. However critiques should be made "to the article", not on the writer. The expressions ''"The term "heterodox economic tradition" is not standard, and '''is therefore being reified by this article.'''"'' and '''''"The principal moving force, and primary reference point, for this article appears to be a pressure group known as Heterodox Economics Web (...)"''''' have strong moral implications that are unacceptable to me.
[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 03:23, 15 May 2007 (CDT)


::Politness is a complex issue, and subject to great cultural differences. Where I live it is not considered "polite" to imply intellectual dishonesty (in the sense of the advocacy of a position known to be false) when reviewing an article, no matter how formal, soft or kind might be the words used to do so.  As long as the above expressions are to stay posted, I am out. On all other issues previously discussed we could most likely had reached a agreement.
:Is there really a group which is trying to organise both "Marxian and Austrian economics", et al., under one umbrella?&mdash;[[User:Nat Krause|Nat Krause]] 06:47, 15 May 2007 (CDT)


[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 18:20, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
::Evidently, Nat, [http://www.bresserpereira.org.br/Terceiros/05.5.Heterodox_Economics.pdf see here].  I shook my head at it too. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 12:22, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Latest revision as of 16:02, 5 March 2024

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Note

The most active contributor to this article, João Prado Ribeiro Campos, deleted his comments. Therefore, some of the comments that are left, below, will be hard to follow, since they are responses to deleted comments. --Larry Sanger 23:34, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

a couple questions

Could the article define what it means by "heterodox"? What are they heterodox in comparison to (was it the same in the early 19th century as it is today)? Also, all of the trends mentioned seem to be various forms of socialism. Would a more specific title perhaps be appropriate?—Nat Krause 17:29, 25 March 2007 (CDT)


Would not it be clearer to speak about alternative economic system arising as responses to failures of mainstream classical and neoclassical economics?
Crises of Capitalism in the nineteenth century gave rise to Marxist and Georgist economics. The 1930s gave rise to Social Credit of CH Douglas and Binary Economics of Louis Kelso. Admittedly none of these people were trained economists but that may be their strength in perceiving the flaws of dominant economic models.
Janos Abel 17:47, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Links

Can you, João, or anyone else for that matter, please replace all of the external links that are placed in-line in the body of this article with links to CZ articles? I did this with the first instance of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Also, I assume that "Economic heterodox tradition" is a term of art among economists? --Larry Sanger 19:26, 25 March 2007 (CDT)

On point (1): you wrote, for example, Jean-Jacques Rousseau. This is a link that points to an external source. But in that place, instead of a link to an external source, we want a link to our own article, even if it does not exist yet: Jean-Jacques Rousseau. We place links to external articles in an "External links" section in the endmatter. Please see CZ:Article mechanics about endmatter. --Larry Sanger 22:46, 25 March 2007 (CDT)

Article title

I'm not an editor or scholar in economics (I do have my BA in this subject), but I don't recall hearing the term "economic heterodox tradition", precisely, before. Also, it gets no google hits at all.—Nat Krause 16:21, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

Begin with a definition

Please, do see CZ:Article mechanics; articles should begin with definitions. "Heterodox tradition" means something in economics; what does it mean? Anything more precise than "socialism"? --Larry Sanger 20:15, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Locke

...is a utopian socialist? Huh? --Larry Sanger 20:35, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


Yes, but none of that makes him a utopian socialist (of course!). --Larry Sanger 16:24, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


The conventional Marxist view of Locke is that he was a proto-capitalist. In particular, his view of property is seen as providing the moral base for mercantilism and accumulation of money. This was important because Locke's philosophy is grounded in the Christian religion, in which moral framework the accumulation of perishable goods is a mortal sin. The invention of money, however, removed this moral obligation from mankind because money does not perish [alas] and with this sleight of hand, Locke was able to justify highly unequal income and property distribution. I fail to see either utopian or socialist thinking in his Second Treatise. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 16:56, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
But surely he's a proto-capitalist as much as a proto-socialist, because of his emphasis on private property and individual rights. --Larry Sanger 17:11, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

List vs. explanation of concept

This article right now, as useful as it might be, takes the form of a list of thinkers who, it is alleged (but by whom?), are part of the "heterodox tradition." But in virtually none of this is it actually explained what the heterodox tradition is--and what members of this "tradition" might have in common that warrant us calling it a "tradition" at all--and why it matters. It is also important, I should think, to detail any criticisms of this tradition, if there are any in currency.

I don't understand what the difference is between the heterodox tradition and socialism, broadly construed. The claim is made that "Leading heterodox thinkers have moved beyond the established paradigms of Austrian, Feminist, Institutional-Evolutionary, Marxian, Post Keynesian, Radical, Social, and Sraffian economics," but the article proceeds to give all sorts of Marxian, Radical, Social, etc., thinkers as examples. The implication, I suppose, is that contemporary "heterodox thinkers" have "moved beyond" these "established paradigms." It also doesn't explain how they have "moved beyond," a claim which I find pretty hard to believe, frankly. Intellectual fads in every field are all too often just recycled, repackaged, relabelled versions of the same old hash; I doubt economic thinkers are any different.

Joao, I think we need to get some other economists and political theorists involved here; my feedback is not enough. --Larry Sanger 20:46, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Do as you please. J. R. Campos 23:52, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

Editorial Opinion

Although I am sympathetic to many of the arguments made here, there are several issues which will not be acceptable to the vast majority of economists or to political theorists. They are as follows:

(1) The term "heterodox economic tradition" is not standard, and is therefore being reified by this article.

(2) The term itself is rather peculiar, in that although a case can be made that the authors listed are not part of the classical tradition, they do not constitute a coherent alternative tradition.

So why classify them together, other than to make a political point that they all opposed classical economic thought?

(3) The principal moving force, and primary reference point, for this article appears to be a pressure group known as Heterodox Economics Web. I had never heard of this group before, and despite my aversion to neoclassical economics, I am very reluctant to suggest that Citizendium should actively support this group.

(4) I suggest renaming the article, perhaps to Alternative approaches to economics. The links to the Heterodox Web are fine, in my view, but the recruitment of Citizendium in promoting their name is not ok. I have not looked in detail at the individual entries, but will do so when the time comes to approve the article. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:02, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Do as you please, I am out of here. Enjoy your editorial. J. R. Campos 22:50, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
Is the term ""economic heterodox tradition" actually used anywhere outside of Citizendium?—Nat Krause 21:01, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
As far as I can tell, the phrase "economic heterodox tradition" does not appear on that site.—Nat Krause 20:47, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
I have been discussing the phrase "economic heterodox tradition". I take you have been discussing the phrase "heterodox tradition" in the context of economics? Regardless, I must note that the "heterodox tradition" does not appear on this page, either; it says "heterodox traditions".—Nat Krause 22:18, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

I am no expert on economics but as an author who can certainly research a topic and hear both sides without really caring which is right, it does appear to me that heterodox economics is probably not an article title we want, except as one that discusses it as a neologism for a relatively small movement of scholars who are attempting to gain momentum and mainstream acceptance of it as an umbrella term. One of "heterodox economics'" strong advocates, Tony Lawson, even admits to this characterization, see here, while appearing to me to seriously overplay what he says is a lack of scholarly dissent to the new "umbrella term". Even assuming Lawson is correct about such lack of dissent, I'd say he certainly errs in interpreting silence as assent. ---Stephen Ewen 23:38, 13 May 2007 (CDT)

Next steps

I'm not sure where the latter list came from. Regardless, the question is not whether we can identify associations and professors as "heterodox" according to some definition, but whether the term "heterodox tradition" itself is in such common currency as to warrant our using the term uncritically. The term itself essentially asserts that there is something worth the name "tradition" here. That is, particularly if we merely and uncritically list off examples of thinkers in this alleged tradition, as this article does now, we are asserting that these thinkers together compose something that deserves the name "tradition." But, I suspect, very many economists are capable of denying this, and thus we are obligated by the Neutrality Policy to take that fact into account.

There is a more serious problem about the article, even if we are going to have an article titled "economic heterodox tradition." It is that the article is essentially a history of certain strands of economic thought. We want such a history, but we do not want the history to go under an idiosyncratic, but rather a neutral, name. I suspect that if we want an article titled "economic heterodox tradition," we ought to make it about this bit of jargon--what it means, who uses it, and so forth--and leave the economic intellectual history to another article.

What we need next from the Economics Workgroup--Martin, if he's the only editor on board--is a decision about exactly what to do. I doubt we should just leave this article as it sits.

João is free, of course, to leave if he wishes. But the threat of the departure of someone who doesn't get his way should not stop us from giving our honest judgment, if politely expressed. João, you must realize that this is a collaborative effort. Also, if you do remain with us, can you use just one depth of indentation within a single reply, and can you please refrain from chopping up other people's comments with your line-by-line replies? --Larry Sanger 16:52, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

Do as you please. I do not not work under censorship. All my comments have been removed; enjoy your own Editorial. Farewell J. R. Campos 22:54, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.

Constable Intervention

Gentlemen, I have removed some content from this talk page for various reasons related to Citizendium's CZ:Professionalism policy. Please take a step back and realize that we are all here for the same purpose. I have no interest in content and my purpose is strictly to assure that we have a comfortable working environment for all. If there is a content issue, please refer back to the editorial workgroup for guidance. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:03, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

New start

Alright, I am no economist, and certainly do not care personally about "heterodox economics", but I can certainly research any topic I please and have what I hope is a pretty solid handle on neutrality. I noticed the contentious history here and decided to put on my author hat a bit.

I may be wrong, but I think I get the gist of "heterodox economics" pretty well. If I do, maybe the changes I made to this stub, still a stub, will help set the stage for a neutral article on this topic.

Stephen Ewen 03:23, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Is there really a group which is trying to organise both "Marxian and Austrian economics", et al., under one umbrella?—Nat Krause 06:47, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
Evidently, Nat, see here. I shook my head at it too. Stephen Ewen 12:22, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
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