User talk:Derek Harkness

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Skin - for discussion relating to citizendiums new skin and to report bugs, please use User talk:Derek Harkness/Skin

Core articles

I am all in favor of working on specific articles along with the main ones, or even ahead of the main ones, and I am trying to do just that. I think its a better way to actually start, and the large complex general ones ae going to be problems. But I do consider that some of the things being added are not the right ones to start with. for some of them are in areas we have not been certain we will cover. DavidGoodman 14:12, 29 November 2006 (CST)

Great work! But...

Regarding the Cascading Style Sheets article, I'm glad you found so much to write about! However, check out this article on writing for CZ, most notably: You're probably used to well-developed Wikipedia articles being divided into many short sections, full of bulleted lists, and written in dense prose that shows off erudition more than really introducing a topic.

While I won't change anything about the article for now (unless I get some brilliant ideas), I think the current draft for the introduction is very wordy. Most of what you said can be broken down and used inside the article itself to explain the structure and whatnot. Again, great additions though. --Dustin Meany 13:09, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

My intention was not to write the article introduction but rather to write the body'. At least as a basis for the body that could be expanded into a fuller article and to do so without resorting to disjointed modules. Derek Harkness 05:17, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

You're a knowledgeable chap:

so could you give me a pointer to the CZ self promotion rules? I'd love to see a CZ article on the British Royal Family by an insider/expert such as Prince Charles but I noticed your comment here [1]W. Frank 02:43, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

OK, I've found the rule here CZ:Policy_on_Self-Promotion - strange it didn't show on a search for Self promotion W. Frank 02:50, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
The default search only searches within the article namespace. To search within other namespaces such as CZ:, help: or user: you have to check the relevant boxes at the foot of the search page before submiting the request. Derek Harkness 06:38, 30 April 2007 (CDT)


One word, thus spelled--please move your new pages appropriately.

I think a less generic term than "subdivision" would suit better--see [2].

--Larry Sanger 13:58, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Corrected the spelling. However, I think the generic term is essential. The idea is that the subdivision pages are listing parts of countries. Each country has different names and meanings of names for each of their parts. Additionally, parts within one country/state often have more than one name. So I wanted to use a term that would cover all the parts of all countries rather than some of the parts of some countries.
That's not to say that someone might not want to do "States of the USA" as a list that discusses state hood and excludes territories that are not states, but for the lists I made yesterday, I want to include all territories, provinces, states, regions, zones and counties under the one generic banner.
I'm not fussy over the word "subdivision", any other generic word would do, but the word must be generic. Derek Harkness 20:42, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
I concur with Derek. Wahib Frank 06:36, 13 May 2007 (CDT)

Bearing capacity

Derek - have I improved the article enough that you can remove the speedy delete tag? Anthony Argyriou 15:48, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Done. Derek Harkness 20:44, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Logical positivism... unlocked. Stephen Ewen 13:57, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Horst Wessel

On what grounds do you want to delete my Horst Wessel article? It is entirely my own work, written originally for Wikipedia and then transferred here when I left Wikipedia. Adam Carr 16:26, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Adam, if I may--the question is whether you simply copied the article here and do not intend to maintain it here. The world needs only one copy of the article in question; if we start another version, we should be committed to making it different, or at least to maintaining it and (hopefully) developing it. See Article Deletion Policy. --Larry Sanger 16:50, 2 June 2007 (CDT)
If it's already good enough, put it up for approval. (Sorry for interfering.) Fredrik Johansson 16:59, 2 June 2007 (CDT)
Fredrik, good point. Our approved copy of an article already on Wikipedia adds significant value. Such an article shouldn't be deleted. --Larry Sanger 17:02, 2 June 2007 (CDT)
Sorry, I lost you, and I want to understand this 'cause I'm in the same boat. If the writer copies a WP article here, but makes no changes, it's up for speedy delete? However, if the same article has a note on its TALK page stating that it's being maintained, then its safe? Ditto if the same article is considered good enough and gets approved status, regardless of whether or not there are changes to it? Aleta Curry 18:54, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
Basically, what Larry said. If your submitting your own work to both sites, a little comment on the talk page stating so would help clarify things. If it's 100% your own work, then we needn't give credit to wikipedia so you can uncheck that box too. Derek Harkness 05:21, 3 June 2007 (CDT)
  • The expression "simply copied it here" seems to imply some sort of plagiarism. I state again that the article is entirely my own work. I wrote it for Wikipedia, and when I left Wikipedia I transfered it here. Surely I am not the only person who, on leaving WP, has brought their original articles with them and donated them to CZ? Why is this treated with such suspicion?
This is more of a copyright question rather than suspicion. --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:25, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
  • I wrote the article using the best sources available to me. It is therefore complete as far as I can make it so. Others are of course free to edit it or add to it if they have more or better sources. I don't see why I should change it just for the sake of making it different to the WP article. In any case, the WP article will soon change (ie, deteriorate) now that I am no longer monitoring it.
Good point Aleta Curry 18:54, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
  • I am "maintaining" the article in the sense that it is on my watchlist. I don't see what else I can be expected to do.
  • I will now remove the deletion notice (and also from Horst-Wessel-Lied, which is in the same catgeory). Adam Carr 04:44, 3 June 2007 (CDT)

Links in Scotland article

The kilt article is ready for vetting, though there is as yet no editor (to my knowledge, at least) with sufficient specialized knowledge to undertake the task. I will attempt to recruit someone of impeccable credentials so that this article (and other similar ones) can possibly be moved to approved status.

Meanwhile, the article is underlinked. Would it be possible to work a reference to kilt into the Scotland article, perhaps somewhere in the Scottish culture section where Highland games is currently linked? Or should I create the Highland games article? Most of the Highland games article on Wikipedia was written by myself, but I hesitate to open up another major article before bringing some of the articles which I am currently working on to completion. The link from Scotland might be quicker if it can be done smoothly.

James F. Perry 11:51, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

Aside form the fact that I am Scottish and own a kilt and obviously, through my native culture, I have absorbed allot of knowledge about kilts, but I am no expert in the academic sense. I don't know if anyone is. This is a subject that is not learned at University level. Citizendium has yet to define an alternative way of defining expertise other than through degrees and doctorates, and that is the issue that must be solved in order to get an editor for an article such as this.
As for the Scotland article, I had planned a place for 'National Dress'. This is more than just the kilt. The kilt is just one part of the full costume. I agree with you that a sub section of the Culture section would be the obvious place for it. It is almost shameful that the wikipedia version barely mentions kilts at all. There should also be a section on kilts under Scottish people culture. Derek Harkness 05:41, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

I decided after all to just put the Highland games article up. It is now linked from Scotland (with a lower case 'g', as is commonly used in speaking of these events in general - the upper case is used when speaking of a particular event as it is then the name of the event). From Highland games, there are links to kilt and many other such articles. James F. Perry 12:42, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Including the Kilt only in so far as it is used in the Highland games is a bit constrictive and excludes allot of important information that should be in that article. The Highland games is a minority event in Scottish culture where as the wearing of a kilt is mainstream. It should have it's own place within the Scottish people and Scotland articles and not be a secondary link off of only the Highland games. Derek Harkness 20:34, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Agreed. But for the moment, I just wanted to create a path, even if it is just a "rabbit path". It can be cleared and widened later. I saw your comment on the talk page of Highland games and will respond as soon as I am done transferring all of my own authored material to the CZ article. probably Monday. James F. Perry 10:12, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


Did you get it to work? ---Stephen Ewen 14:17, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, did you get it??? --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:18, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

If you get it going, besides letting those of us know who are chomping at the bit to use it, please add to CZ:Enhancing your editing with java extensions accordingly! --Stephen Ewen 14:26, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
I didn't get it working properly. The pop up and menu did appear, but the layout was not correct and the page text did not load in. I think there's some other file(s) that I've not ported over. I'm wondering if there is something required server side, in php, to interface with this script? Feel free to try yourself. Install is the same as described on the wikipedia site. Just add {{subst:navpop}} to your ownMonobook.js file Derek Harkness 09:04, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
Great effort! This is over my head, but if you eventually get it, please do let me know!! Thanks, Derek. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:58, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

OK, making some progress. Went back to the original and de-wikipedia-izing it in a slower, more step by step method. Got the basics working, though most of the advanced features fail to load. I think I know why though, so only time to fix. For those wishing to play, Just add {{subst:navpop}} to your ownMonobook.js file. I think enough is working for it to be usefull, if not fully featured. You can also play with the addons as described at the wikipedia page

Stephen - I'll add instructions once the bugs are squashed but I'd appreciate some people testing and reporting bugs (or fixing them themselves). Derek Harkness 10:58, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, Derek, that does add some nice additions. I've requested the techs add the items on which the other parts of popups is dependent, as you mentioned at forums. ---Stephen Ewen 15:22, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Some of the articles are having the first part show up, History of biology is one, but only in the Recent changes, not elsewhere.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:19, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

Looks like the tech team have fixed the last bug. For me, the popups is working fully. You do need to wait a few seconds for the page to load in. To use, Just add the code

to your own Monobook.js file. Derek Harkness 03:13, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Awesome! I'll announce it.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 04:04, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm getting partial functionality. Still doesn't bring up a section of the article for me and 'diff' and 'hist' don't react to mouse hovering in the recent changes list. Am I missing something? --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:13, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

The popup should be apearing, and with a short pause, the begining of the article should load. If it's not doing this, check that you installed correctly (remembering to refresh you browser cache) and that you must be logged in for this script to run. If still no, then tell me what system and web browser you are running on.
Some of the administration features are dependent on query.php being installed, and we don't have that yet. Query.php works the history and contribs previews, extended previews for image pages, category member lists in category previews, extended ("queried") revert summaries, and speeds up some other operations.
The last edit should work though, which is usefull. And the menus should all link to the relevent pages, making navigation easier. Derek Harkness 10:33, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

CZ Write-a-thon for August 1

I have a number of short (100 to 250 word) articles related to Scottish history which I am developing for the Highland Games wiki ( I could bring one of these short pieces over here to CZ as my new article for the write-a-thon August 1. Perhaps you would be interested in editing one of them once it is brought over here? Examples: Glorious Revolution, Jacobites, Glencoe Massacre, Darien Expedition, Treaty of Union (1707). Let me know if you have any preferences. Eventually, there will be 30 or 40 such short articles on the HG wiki. James F. Perry 09:12, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

I'll be sure to cast an eye over them if you post. Derek Harkness 09:13, 1 August 2007 (CDT)


I respect your knowledge of Chinese curry, but I think you should add an explanatory note as per my comments on the Discussion page. Hayford Peirce 12:40, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Derek

Thanks for fixing that CZLive issue in the T section. Good job. --Ian Johnson 06:49, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


Hi Derek, I wrote these to try and help people convert the articles without a subpages template but that already hav a checklist template.

  1. Copy the exact name of the original article.
  2. Go to "CZ:Start_article_with_subpages" link and create the metadata template page by replacing the ARTICLE NAME in Step 1, clicking the create metadata template button and then pasting the article name into the pagename field near the top of the edit window. Then SAVE the page.
  3. Click the TALK tab that links to the Discussion page for the original article. Enter Edit mode. Copy the fields from the checklist. Delete the checklist and add {{subpages9}} to the top of the page. Then SAVE the page.
  4. Click the metadata template link at the bottom of the checklist (this enters the edit mode for the metadata template).Then select the checklist fields from acb to cat3 and paste in the checklist fields that you have Copied into the metadata template. Then SAVE the page.
  5. Click on the "Main Article" link at the top left of the page. Enter Edit mode and add {{subpages9}} to the top of the page.
  6. Clean up: You can delete all the categories at the bottom of the article. Then SAVE the page.
  7. You're done. :)

It might be a starting point for a more user frindly set of instruction Chris Day (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

Country template

Seems fine to me, but History should go first. We should try to encourage this as a standard template, maybe puitting it somewhere on the wiki as a guide. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:12, 16 November 2007 (CST)

There are some more comments on my Talk page, which we should take into account. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 16:08, 16 November 2007 (CST)

See the Forum discussion:,1359.30.html --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:48, 17 November 2007 (CST)

There's a party going on...

...and where are you? I happen to know that it's Wednesday in your part of the world. Come on over to the write-a-thon, when you can. Bring a bottle! Aleta Curry 01:41, 5 December 2007 (CST)


Hey Derek, thanks for that. That makes a whole lot of sense. Brand is a word I see all the time for fire so burned water for Brandy makes sense. Between you and Hayford, my Christmas shop just got a lot easier. Dank u! --Ian Johnson 10:57, 15 December 2007 (CST)

The demon drink, again....

Hola! Replied at the place where people chat with me Aleta Curry 17:31, 12 January 2008 (CST)


Are there any technical issues I could help you with, or should I just be patient? -- Jitse Niesen 07:49, 22 January 2008 (CST)

I'm getting there. I have rather too much going on just now. Aside form my day job I have only a little time to design. However, I have got something interesting that will be read for show soon. I'm testing it on my own wiki installation just now. It would be useful to have the current theme files form Citizendium to test on as there are some small differences between my wiki and CZ's wiki. If someone can tarball up the file /skins/MonoBook.php and the folder /skins/MonoBook and email them to me then I can check my code works with CZ's before shipping the finished skin back to you. Derek Harkness 06:57, 23 January 2008 (CST)

Sorry, I forgot to reply. I don't have the current files (though I also asked for them on several occasions). -- Jitse Niesen 05:03, 28 January 2008 (CST)

A lady never buys a round...

..but I might make an exception for the CZ:write-a-thon. Come on over! Aleta Curry 21:24, 5 February 2008 (CST)


Hello, Derek, please see Talk:Antarctica. Ro Thorpe 10:12, 15 February 2008 (CST)

Hey there!

It's Wednesday. I see you floating in cyberspace. Where B U? Aleta Curry 22:43, 1 April 2008 (CDT)


Hi, saw your note at Template talk:Slashtitle‎; I had an idea, interested to see if you think it's any use/good. J. Noel Chiappa 10:10, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Recipe template

Hi, Derek! Robert says that the "skin" needs some fixin' and that only you can do it. Could you do this? I'm itching to add some recipes and I don't want to do any more of them until we have the final template in place.... Thanks! Hayford Peirce 13:46, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

The specific issue is that there are additional linebreaks after some html/css elements that originally did not have those linebreaks in the monobook skin. And for what it's worth, the skin bugs aren't holding back the project. I don't know what is; surely some breakdown in communication I think. --Robert W King 13:48, 25 April 2008 (CDT)
Robert, you can use CSS to adjust the padding and margins around elements just as you do their colour or size. I looked at the template and it could make use of better markup. the <font> tag went out with the arc and there is no need for table markup here. Use div and span tags instead.
Hayford, separate content from appearance and code. All you need to decide, before adding content, is what fields the template should have (the code). The actual appearance of the text can come later. If the code side is stable, then you can write content. Derek Harkness 04:41, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Up you get, sleepyhead!

It's time to tell us all about your favourite holiday over at the May party! Aleta Curry 20:28, 6 May 2008 (CDT)

table code

Hello, thank you so much for cleaning up that code. As it got longer, less space it had at bottom b/c all the boxes stacked up. (Chunbum Park 10:43, 27 May 2008 (CDT))

June Write-a-Thon

Hey Derek! You're usually one of the first if not the first on the party floor. Where be you? Aleta Curry 04:23, 4 June 2008 (CDT)

Goguryeo-Tang Wars

Hello Mr. Harkness! I really appreciate your contribution to the new skin for Citizendium. It's neater than the original wiki, it's refreshing b/c the original wiki skin's been around for like 5 yrs & all the different wiki's use them, & it gives better sense of space in really huge articles (go up, it gets lighter, go down, it gets darker). i remember times when i scrolled down too much to the bibliography, see also, and notes section because i just couldn't get the sense of space in this really huge wikipedia article.

I'm also very excited to find that you're interested in foreign history - East Asian. From your status board I can see that you're primarily concerned with Chinese history. If you remember, back in Wikipedia, some Chinese users opposed the title Goguryeo-Tang wars b/c it somehow implies that Goguryeo's not Chinese & they don't like that.

I'll try to find the location for that particular battle that took place in 645AD. I have some illustrated history books from days when I was an elementary student (but the books are for middle & high schoolers, & for finding simple facts like the location/date it's going to be usable/reliable). Thank you. (Chunbum Park 18:54, 5 June 2008 (CDT))

Sir, I've found it.

scan 1, scan 2, scan 3.

I'll translate it from the 3rd paragraph of the 2nd scan:

Finally Su (수나라) collapsed and Dang (당나라)rose in its place. Evidently Dang wanted to conquer all of its neighbors. Like Su, Goguryeo (고구려) could not avoid the fight with Su.

However because Dang had witnessed Su's defeats (against Goguryeo), they did not try fighting with Goguryeo immediately. Instead they prepared with tremendous efforts and invaded Goguryeo in 645 AD.

Dang made advances by painstakingly conquering the bordering fortresses one at a time. When Dang arrived at Ansi (안시), the last fortress in the Yo-dong (요동) area, Goguryeo, realizing the severity of the situation, sent 15,000 aid troops to the Ansi fortress. However all of them were defeated.

But something like a miracle happened. The citizens and the soldiers who were in Ansi fortress combined with Yang Man-choon (양만춘) of Seong-ju (성주) and defended against Dang's forces to the end. Although Dang's troops continued to attack continuously for 80 days, the citizens and the soldiers of the Ansi fortress defended the fortress firmly.

And then a cold winter approached. The Dang troops who could not withstand the extreme cold gave up the fighting and ended up withdrawing. The Dang that had conquered the vast expanse of the Chinese continent could not conquer that small castle of Goguryeo and had to retreat.

Even after that Dang continued to attack Goguryeo. They did not give up the desire to conquer Goguryeo. When Dang could not conquer Goguryeo on its own, they allied with Sin-la (pronounced "Silla", 신라) that had grown recently on the Korean peninsula and was aiming to unify the three kingdoms.

The bibliography would be:

Jang, Pyeong-soon. Noon-eu-ro Bo-nen Han-gook-yauk-sa 5: Gor-yeo Si-dae (눈으로 보는 한국역사 2: 삼국시대), Park Doo-ui, Bae Keum-ram, Yi Sang-mi, Kim Ho-hyun, Kim Pyung-sook, et al., Joog-ang Gyo-yook-yaun-goo-won. 1998-10-30. Seoul, Korea.

The note citation would be:

Jang, Pyeong-soon, 1998, pp. 39-40

Thank you (Chunbum Park 19:28, 5 June 2008 (CDT))

The Korean Britannica entry on the Siege of the Ansi fortress is here.

I can translate it word by word (some of the phrases will sound awkward in English) if you'd want me to. Thank you. (Chunbum Park 19:34, 5 June 2008 (CDT))

Choosing one's own color for links to non-existent articles

Derek, the method you gave on the forums worked for me but it took me quite a while because my skin preference is set for "monobook.css" rather than "pinwich5.css". If I may suggest, the instructions would be much easier for non-computer gurus if they read:

  • Click on your "my preferences" tab at the top of the CZ page.
  • Then click on your "skin" tab and check to see which skin you are using. The skin choices are: chick, classic, cologne blue, monobook, myskin, nostalgia, pinkwich5 and simple.
  • Once you have identified the skin you are using, then go to [[User:Your name/yourskin.css]]. When writing "yourskin.css", be sure to use all lowercase even though the list of skins uses some capitalization.
  • Once you are at [[User:Yourname/yourskin.css]], click on the edit tab at the page top. Then add this code: { color:#XXXXXX; }      where XXXXXX is the hex number for the color you want to use. Then save the page.
  • Then it is very important to refresh your cache by:
    • IE: hold Ctrl while clicking Refresh, or press Ctrl-F5
    • Mozilla / Firefox / Safari: hold down Shift while clicking Reload, or press Ctrl-Shift-R (Cmd-Shift-R on Apple Mac);
    • Konqueror:: Simply click the Reload button, or press F5;
    • Opera: You may need to completely clear their cache in Tools→Preferences.

Thanks for telling us about this method. My only concern is whether doing the above will conflict with whatever color Chris Day finally inplements after the forum discussion is over with. Milton Beychok 16:33, 30 June 2008 (CDT)

July party

Thanks awfully Derek for getting things going at the Write-a-Thon. What would we have done without you and Supten? Aleta Curry 20:36, 2 July 2008 (CDT)

Quick question

Do you have bear-shaped honey bottles there? I can't seem to find anything that will tell me if it's a purely American phenomenon. Respond on the talk page for the article, please. Thanks much, Joe Quick 19:50, 11 July 2008 (CDT)

Thank you for your copy editing. I didn't know it was "make room for.." I thought I needed the 's' after "room". (Chunbum Park 08:38, 18 July 2008 (CDT))
The meaning of 'room' in 'make room for' is the same as 'make space for'. Here 'room' is a non countable noun and so has no 's' on the end. A similar example would be, "There was lots of traffic on the road today." As opposed to the incorrect, "There was lots of traffics on the road today." If you were talking about rooms in a house then that's a different meaning with a different grammar. Derek Harkness 10:20, 18 July 2008 (CDT)
I see. Thank you. By the way, I don't think I remember seeing a bear-shaped honey bottle in South Korea. That might help. (Chunbum Park 11:15, 18 July 2008 (CDT))


Without bothering Larry, who should I contact with my request for a trial of change in the font color default for blank-page wiki-links? --Anthony.Sebastian 20:12, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Party's started

and you're missing! Where B U??? Aleta Curry 22:07, 2 September 2008 (CDT)

Would appreciate your comments about title change proposal

Derek, please take a look at the Talk page of Coal mining history and let me have your comments on my proposal to change the article title and to re-write the lead-in sentence of the introduction so as to include the actual title of the article. Thanks, Milton Beychok 16:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Citizendium charter drafting commitee nomination

Hi Derek, You've been nominated by a fellow Citizendium member to be a candidate for election to the Citizendium charter drafting committee.

If you haven't been following the discussion in the forums, we're getting ready to establish a charter for Citizendium that outlines the project's goals, ideals, and basic structure. To get the process moving, we put together a plan for electing a group of Citizens to compose a draft of the charter, which will then be submitted for community review. You can find more about the plan here.

You've been nominated by another Citizen to be a candidate for election to that committee. The next step is up to you: you may either accept or decline the nomination by going here and following the instructions at the top of the page.

If you have any questions, just let any of those who accepted know. --Daniel Mietchen 15:54, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I also took the liberty to reformat your user page a bit. Feel free to revert if you don't like it. --Daniel Mietchen 16:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Charter drafting nomination

Hi Derek,
You were nominated by a fellow Citizendium member to be a candidate for a position on the Citizendium charter drafting committee, but you haven't indicated whether you want to accept or decline. To learn more about what the committee is all about, you can go to the page that describes the process. To indicate that you either accept or decline the nomination to participate in the process as a committee member, you should visit the subpage for nominations; there are instructions on what to do on that page.
Thanks much!
--Joe Quick 03:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Wot? Wat!

Sending a quick ‘hello’ out to all of you who wanted a weekend write-a-thon. Also, a nudge, push, and a shove to all those who haven’t made it out in a while. This Sunday, 10th January, is your Big Chance. Party theme is ‘stubs’. Now, what could be easier? Write about anything you want! (At least come on over and say ‘hi’—we’ve all been much too quiet lately and I rather miss everybody.) Aleta Curry 20:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)