User talk:D. Matt Innis/Archive 4

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Applied arts

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subpages9 from outerspace

First of all, I'm not a coder, so I have no idea how hard it is to do the following: Wouldn't it be better for a bot to do the adding of these templates? They're so much better than us at doing monotonous jobs. Thanks! Yuval Langer 00:54, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

There will be a bot that does a lot of this (see #4 here). The metadata page will probably have to be done manually though. You're right, it's a big job! Chris Day (talk) 01:25, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I'm not REALLY having fun... I'd rather write more new articles, but I guess computers aren't good at making good connections between ideas YET, so I can do that. What do you think of User:Yuval Langer/Explosives? It's still <150 words according to my word counter. (man 1 wc)
Hey, it's all in your head ;-) It's like 'Home is where your heart is", only it's "Fun is where your head is." I spend a lot of time there! User:Yuval Langer/Explosives looks like a good start.. That is one of those articles that can go really deep into all different directions. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:58, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
I tried using subpages9 yesterday. ohdearohdearohdear. I got a complete mess at the top of the page and gave up! I looked up the instructions and everything, and still couldn't figure out why it works for you boys. Aleta Curry 19:05, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Yes, it does look messy until you fill out the metadata page. It looks downright scary to say the least, but once you click on the M and fill out the pagename (or whatever it is) it cleans it all up. Then just copy all the lines from the ToApprove template (except the {{ToApprove| part and then not the last set of brackets either. Paste that into the metadata template. Try it again!! You were almost there ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:24, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Ha! Okay, to my mind, I already did that and then hit "preview" and it was still a mess. After four or five goes I jettisoned the idea.
Okay, I'll try again--what the heck; I'm still young(ish). Okay here's where I may be going wrong: should I copy all that metadata stuff into the top of the main article edit page, or the top of the Talk edit page? And what "M" do you mean that I should be clicking on? I'm going to give this another go at garden, where I can do the least amount of damage. I shall call upon you to revert if it all goes haywire! Aleta Curry 20:17, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
Okay, go for it an I will watch..--Matt Innis (Talk) 20:27, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

The Big "M"! Yeah, baby!

Ohhhh....this is great, fellas!

Can I do it again--can I can I please huh huh??

Aleta Curry 20:44, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Hehe, I am glad to be the one to show you your first M. I can only do one each night. You might be able to do many, it just depends on how hard you are willing to work! --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:50, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Ahem.

Anyway, Matt, what we need is a diagram. Of the template, silly, and what the different buttons do. (No really, I'm serious!) --Larry Sanger 20:58, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Err, uh.. Of course, I'll see what I can do :) --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:07, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

We need clear instructions:
Flower edit.jpg
  1. In the edit screen of your article's main page, type or paste the text {{subpages9}} at the top of the page, above the text.
  2. Depress 'enter' and Save.
  3. In the edit screen of your article's discussion page, type or paste the text {{subpages9}} at the top of the page, above the text.
  4. Depress 'enter' and Save.
  5. Retrieve metadata stuff (access [1]; select & copy metadata for pasting to your article's metadata page.)
    Metadata code.jpg
  6. Return to your article's main page and click on the yellow button marked "M".
    • Note: this will take you to the metadata page edit screen.
      Metadata blank.jpg
  7. Paste copied data. Fill in the pagename with the article's name.
  8. Depress 'enter' and Save.
Aleta Curry 21:18, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

I wrote some instructions and Hayford used them with success. He then edited them further to reflect his experience more closely. I will point out that the easiest way to set up the metadata template is to use the Start article tool that Larry set up (available in the left sidebar). The following instructions describe that strategy:

  1. Copy the exact name of the original article.
  2. Go to "CZ:Start_article_with_subpages" link and create the metadata template page by replacing the ARTICLE NAME in Step 1, clicking the create metadata template button and then pasting the article name into the pagename field near the top of the edit window. Then SAVE the page.
  3. Click the TALK tab that links to the Discussion page for the original article. Enter Edit mode. Copy the fields from the checklist. Delete the checklist and add {{subpages9}} to the top of the page. Then SAVE the page.
  4. Click the metadata template link at the bottom of the checklist (this enters the edit mode for the metadata template).Then select the checklist fields from acb to cat3 and paste in the checklist fields that you have Copied into the metadata template. Then SAVE the page.
  5. Click on the "Main Article" link at the top left of the page. Enter Edit mode and add {{subpages9}} to the top of the page.
  6. Clean up: You can delete all the categories at the bottom of the article. Then SAVE the page.
  7. You're done. :)

Chris Day (talk) 23:15, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

I think yours is easier. I did not realize that you could just use the 'Start article' page to just create a metadata page. That saves a step or two. --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:28, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Just surfed here looking for the answer to why I don't get a checklist while trying to use the new start-an-article buttons. Maybe because I didn't type "subpages" at the top of the discussion page?
In any case, just FYI the instructions are not good enough from a procedural point of view because they presume knowledge. Not to worry; I'm sure we'll work it all out when we're done.
Aleta Curry 19:31, 2 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks

Thanks for the heads up - I saw Crystal Palace/Draft in the architecture workgroup and assumed that's the way we are working it. --Russ McGinn 08:03, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

What shall we do about the mess I've created - do I need a sysop to move it all or should I just copypaste and lose the article history? --Russ McGinn 08:05, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
No problem, I'll move it for you. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:33, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Thanks for that - do you know what categories I should be using Category:Architecture Workgroup Draft or just Category:Architecture Workgroup? --Russ McGinn 08:55, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Definitely Architecture. However, if we do this right, you should not have to worry about adding categories to the bottom of the page. Watch what I do adn this is the best way to create articles now... --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:25, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
I made all the changes on Taj Mahal by using the subpages9 template. We're working on the instructions as we speak, but overall it is easier than trying to maintain categories on all the related pages. See if you can follow these instructions just above. You'll be our guinea pig ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:38, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Righto - I'll have a go with Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal. --Russ McGinn 09:44, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Erm, ok I think I've done it - there was no checklist metadata to copy as I've only just created the article and it hasn't been reviewed yet. --Russ McGinn 09:56, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
You did great! I'm impressed - first time! See how Larry filled out the template? You can do this, too - and change it as you change the article. It is important to keep it updated as you improve the article. That way, other editors (who are monitoring the categories) can see when you about finished and can come help. At least that is the plan! Let me know if there is anything that you think will make it go easier. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:18, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for all your help today Matt, it's felt pretty quiet in here since I created my account until today. I'll draft something for the naming convention tomorrow. I have a few final questions - is there a good example of a fully functioning article with the subpages9 format - I'm interested in seeing how it's supposed to work, presumably with all the bibliography, external links, and 'see alsos' in subpages. I've also got a developer request and could do with being pointed in the right direction. The boffins at WP change the way the cite.php system works a while ago so that you didn't have to put the full (ref name="" my citation /ref) code first in the article - it's such a pain without it. See all the broken citations in Origins and architecture of the Taj Mahal. Cheers. --Russ McGinn 20:37, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

No problem, Russ. I can see you have a lot to offer and am excited to help you get it all in. I am glad that you don't see it as a bother, but I wanted to make sure you got off to a good start instead of having to go back and change things. Take a look at the Biology article for a good example of the subpages. You can see it is a different way to keep things organized that hopes to be user friendly for the reader. It looks like it might be a good replacement for the category system at Wikipedia. Also, notice that it leaves more room for actual content in the article rather than taking up space with bibliographies and related articles, etc..

For developers and technical issues, see bugs and technical help .. and if you haven't yet, do check out the forums and mailing lists at the link on the left for Communication. That is where people debate the different ideas or aire compliants. Feel free to start your own thread and somebody will answer.

Yes, I have never seen it this slow. Is everyone on vacation? Or has everyone gone back to work ;-) Either way it is not as busy as wikipedia, but that can be good. Lot's of time to really get some good writing done. --Matt Innis (Talk) 20:53, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Guess what Matt, the students are back. You'll notice Zach is also knocking around now so he must be back on his high speed network at school. On the other hand others of us have a lot more real work to do :) Chris Day (talk) 21:12, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Ahh, that's what it is, so all our editors are having to get their classes together. We started 2 weeks ago. Are you guys just starting? --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:19, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
Not just starting but still trying to catch up. Chris Day (talk) 21:21, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

Ok, I've had a stab here as suggested. --Russ McGinn 16:08, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Uner Tan

Thanks - I'm on it.

Lee R. Berger 23:45, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

New Author

Oh - I think I'll bring that one into the fold - pas de problem -

(anonymous)

Did you note my talk page? I might be winning!

(anonymous)

Worship

Where is my worship smiley? Kim van der Linde 16:41, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

[2] :-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:52, 11 September 2007 (CDT)

Careful, though, or you get my Constable smiley;-) [3] --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:57, 11 September 2007 (CDT) [4]Kim van der Linde 07:58, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

LOL, now that's the right attitude :D --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:09, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

Tahiti

Take plenty of money, wrapped in a one-pound note.... Hayford Peirce 10:45, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Oh,oh.. I don't have a one pound note.. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:54, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


students

P.S. these are all Honours level student (post-graduate) in our terms. I have given each of them a very specific topic (so there's really no risk of overlap with other authors) and they will be completing a 2000+ word full encyclopedia topic (under the sub-heading "taphonomy" in place of an essay. We want them to engage with editors and other authors once a decent article is approved in house here. If you could register them as Anthro Authors I will personally nurture each article. Their goal over the next six weeks is to bring these articles to the approved level or as near as possible. I have two other colleagues here monitoring and mentoring this project as well. Do you think I should post a notification on the forums so that interested parties can follow this experiment? Lee R. Berger 10:59, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

"Do you think I should post a notification" Definitely, I will be following with interest. I'm sure other will too if they know it's happening. Chris Day (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Yes, definitely make sure everyone knows! --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:38, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

hyphens

We had a major fight at WP about this issue. Some administrator set up a bot to purge all WP of "science-fiction". I, and some others, insisted that correct grammar says "A science-fiction writer writes science fiction". The admin. eventually turned off her bot, but refused to admit she was wrong OR to revert her changes. It is, however, a confusing matter. The Science Fiction Writers of America, the guild to which I belong, does NOT use the hyphen. They musta been illiterate when they set up the organization 40 years ago.... Hayford Peirce 14:46, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Ahh... so you were the one that turned off my bot. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:57, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Hehe. You had a girl's name, as I recall, a Chinese one.... Hayford Peirce 16:54, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
Hey, Kim is not ALWAYS a girl's name . :D --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:00, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Thanks!

Matt, thanks!Kim van der Linde 10:25, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

You are quite welcome.. and Thank you! --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:01, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Workgroup welcome

Can we move towards a neutral welcome note? Edit mine as you see fit please.

Lee R. Berger 10:58, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Whatchu talkin bout, Lee? --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:02, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Sorry again - I'm clearly not being clear - clearly - I am talking about editing the welcome note on CZ:Anthropology Workgroup. so that it is not from an individual but from all of the editors!

Lee R. Berger 11:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Oh, of course, of course.. I'll check it out. --Matt Innis (Talk) 11:17, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Common sense

That's at CZ:Fundamentals section III. 4. I'm glad our common sense both agreed that was NOT just a matter of exercising common sense.  :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 21:05, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Hey, now that actually makes sense ;-) I think we might consider that a mandate from our 'constitution' (SFP). Did you put that on the forum or Contraception (medical methods) page? Here is the tougher question... can we update the chiropractic page? --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:15, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I don't know. If we are talking something like this, that is very clearly out-of-bounds to fix without editor instruction (you had this). But if we are talking about an embarrassing thing like a "cihropractic" instead of a "chiropractic", how is leaving that up or bothering everyone with a long involved process to get it fixed using common sense?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 21:58, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
So would you have made this change? --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:09, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
I would not touch any math article at any time, no, not even with a ten foot pole. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:23, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Hehe!! I'm still recovering ;-) Maybe we ought to work toward constables being able to Re-approve articles with copyedit changes... of course content changes require an editor?? (Although you remember Nancy would have had a fit if we would have made any changes without her okay... richard?) Any editor who has a problem can have it reverted without hard feelings.. Something along those lines. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:27, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Let's take up at http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,1214.0.html  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 22:34, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Okay. Add your 2 cents. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:37, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Subpages

Hi Matt. Thanks for your help with this. I had actually been thinking about the subpage concept so you have anticipated me! I'll make a start with bibliography, external sources, etc. to be going on with and I'll get in touch again if I need to ask anything. All the best. --John Leach 00:48, 22 September 2007 (CDT)

Will do.

Understood. I knew as soon as I hit save page. Activating now. End of line. --Robert W King 21:30, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

Wait, how on earth do I activate my email address? --Robert W King 21:36, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/62/MartyFeldman.jpg  ;-) --Robert W King 22:02, 29 September 2007 (CDT)

Beat me to, it, as usual, Matt!

Yeah, I'd just realised I needed to type in "subpages", see comment above.

How embarrassing!

Aleta Curry 19:34, 2 October 2007 (CDT)

reapproval?

re Shirley Chisholm article, what is the procedure and recommended timeline for re-approving a revised version now in draft? Richard Jensen 17:20, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

thanks! Richard Jensen 19:03, 7 October 2007 (CDT)
My pleasure! I'll be watching out for it. --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:11, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

[edit]

Hi Matt, I've been off on holiday (to Marrakech, expect articles!) and come back to find all the section header edit buttons display like
[edit] This



Is there a reason for this? I assume its something to do with the mediawiki(?) upgrade? - it looks terrible, is it just me, will it be fixed, do I need to tell anyone other than you? Regards, --Russ McGinn 07:27, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

seems that it's been noticed - nobody seems to have volunteered to fix it though.....I'll ignore it and hope it goes away :-) --Russ McGinn 11:03, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Don't hold your breath too long. :-)

van der Waals equation

Matt, I do agree with the new edits, but I am not sure how to change the date/time for the nominated article. This was my first try at suggesting approval. How do I go about changing the date/time? If you could change it for me, that would be ok also.

David E. Volk 10:55, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Editorship?

Matt - you commented, months ago, that I would qualify as an editor in the Engineering Workgroup. I think I want to apply now. Any advice on what I should include in a CV/resume? I've done very little writing which has been published publically - most of my work has been for private clients, and I've not been published in journals, etc. I do have California licenses, and can point to a weblink where that can be verified. Anthony Argyriou 12:24, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

How to

become an editor? I am one, just need that flag. Kim van der Linde 09:46, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Hi Kim, are you saying you want to be one? If so, apply to personnel@citizendium.org. They are the ones that have to put the category flag on your page. Good Luck!! It's about time :) By the way, have you heard from Lee? --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:53, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
I guess they are just not interested..... :-/ Kim van der Linde 16:35, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
We don't just want you, we need you. No conspiracy, I'm sure it's just slipped through the cracks. People just make mistakes, forget things, lose things... OK have remembered something, must go...Gareth Leng 03:38, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
So what's up with this? Kim should be fast tracked through the systym. I just did a quick google and to my surprise found she is in Florida. All this time I was thinking Holland, for some reason. Chris Day (talk) 09:35, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
I am Dutch, but live in Florida. Kim van der Linde 22:51, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
This is the fast track:-) Hang in there! --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:46, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
It's a manpower issue. I can imagine what Larry's desk must look like. --Matt Innis (Talk) 09:55, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

The problem is that there are no other people approving editorships other than me, and I have a backlog. I have put off getting new editors involved in this approval process because...well, let's just say that that'll be time-consuming (I really want to get going with something like the Chief Area Editors). Anyway, Kim, I'll attend to your case (and others) soon. Sorry for the delay.

You don't want to know what my desk looks like. --Larry Sanger 09:58, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Steven Novella, MD

What do you think of this[5] or this[6]. Aaron Schulz 20:41, 14 October 2007 (CDT)

I think it is pretty much derogatory opinion meant to damage his competition's reputation. But to be fair, the other side does the same thing. Neither is correct, but neither is totally wrong either. I just wish they could argue the merits of their side without resorting to attacking the other side. It's a sign of weakness. Is that what you mean? --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:10, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
I am not a doctor, but I was entertained by both and their proceeding comments. It was well worth my reading time. --Robert W King 22:31, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
Steven pretty much does a good job convincing me what is pseudoscience and what is not. I love his blogs, especially the ones that debunk Intelligent Design nonsense. It's just interesting to have someone around who works in a field Steven rejects and to see how they would respond. Aaron Schulz 22:54, 14 October 2007 (CDT)
I suppose there is a certain entertainment value there, sort of like a 'celebrity death match', huh! I'm sure I don't have to tell you to take it all with a grain of salt. I wouldn't expect you to use me as your end all source for pharmaceutical treatment any more than I would expect you to use your medical doctor as an end all source for things out of their specialty. My only advice would be that when you want to know about pseudoscience, ask a PhD in science. That is what Citizendium is all about, right. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:56, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

Steven Novella writes well and does a good job generally in counterbalancing a media that often tends to favour the offbeat and antiscience movements. You have to remember that whatever his academic affiliations he's writing as a journalist, not as a scientist - he does not always write with the rigor or credibility of a scientist (and I don't think he would claim to). So I think some of the things he's written are weak/out of date, and his defence of science has a bit of a knee-jerk to it (in my opinion; I think we've a few motes and beams of our own). But it's good stuff, so long as it's accepted as just for thought, not real meat. :-)Gareth Leng 17:05, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

I'd agree with respect to his positive arguments. But the ones that negate nonsense and pseudoscience seem right on the spot. Certainly, they should be taken in context with the rest of mainstream medicine and opinions, but I can't think of a time he was off on those. Aaron Schulz 20:52, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

RE:Welcome!

Thank you, my good friend. Here I go! Best regards, Eddie Ortiz Nieves 19:27, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Have fun... but do read the rules ;-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:33, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Adding catalogue pages?

Hi Matt old buddy old pal,

I thought "catalog" just popped up automatically when one added {{subpages}}, but I don't see a catalog page at maple and I'd like to add one. Do you know how?

Aleta Curry 17:21, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

p.s. I didn't mean to do that--add in subpages thingy here. Sigh. Aleta Curry 17:23, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Hehe, that is soo funny :D You made my day. If you want to put a template on a talk page, put a tl| in front of it and it won't act as a template (see what I did to the one above;-)
I'll check into the catalog question! I'm not sure, but I'll find out! --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:53, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
Always glad to be a source of amusement! Re catalogues--that did it, thanks! (I guess I'll have to decide whether I'm spelling catalog or catalogue when I type!) Aleta Curry 20:55, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
I learned something there, too! I was avoiding learning about catalogs, but you pushed me iinto it.. I'll watch what you do. --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:06, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
Oh, like you need me! It's easy-peasy--once you've seen where it is, it's like--duh! Of course! (And, apropos of nothing, I've just sent in an editor application.) Aleta Curry 21:26, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
LOL, Yeah, but what do you write on the page! That is the hard part!! Hehe. You should be an editor, you write very well and all so quickly. It takes me two hours to write one paragraph on anything :D --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:30, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
Awww...flattery will get you...far!  :)Aleta Curry 21:56, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

RE: Way to go!

Thanks! I can assure you that all of the information there was written by me in ~2 hours. The only thing I "copied" directly were the numbers and statistics. I, of course, included citations for the sources. Happy editing! --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 19:43, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

P.S. I did take a look at the Wikipedia article, but I did not copy any info. from there. Heck, I even corrected some mistakes they had on the number of municipalities Angola has! :-) It wasn't that hard to find the correct number; I don't know why they didn't bother to check the number. --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 19:47, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
No problem, you can do that. If you ever do copy something from wikipedia, make sure and click the box on the edit page that says it was from wikipedia. Also it's a good idea to make a note at the top of the talk page that you started the article from scratch in your own words so no-one else stops by your page and asks the same question again. You're doing fine. --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:50, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
I'll do that right now. Thanks again! --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 19:54, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
I'm having a problem with the checklist at Talk:Angola (they don't have those at Wikipedia). Could you check it, please? --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 19:59, 17 October 2007 (CDT)
See ya there. Matt Innis (Talk) 20:00, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

B29

Dunno about an article, but we have a picture ready for it: Image:B29.jpg --Joe Quick 23:01, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Oh yeah, that's what I'm talkin' bout! :-) --Matt Innis (Talk) 06:54, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
B-29 has taken off. Richard Jensen 13:48, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

tag

Can you please add the subpages tag on the approved version of Wheat? Kim van der Linde 12:43, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Yep, good thinking. --Matt Innis (Talk) 12:45, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
Something strange with wheat. At lerast for me using Safari. The taxo box on the draft page does not show up. It works fine on my talk page so there is something on the wheat page preventing it from opening. Taxoboxes in other articles seem fine too. Any ideas? Chris Day (talk) 14:45, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
I saw that also, but there are some unresolved tags in the talk page: #ifeq: Wheat/Draft just below the box. Kim van der Linde 14:51, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
Same results for me so far. I tried cutting out some fields but no help. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:54, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
It shows up if I remove the subpage template. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:59, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

I saw the unresolved tags too. The related articles has the unresolved tag but no other templates are functioning on that page. What could cause that apart from the subpages template? But the subpages template seems to be working on other approved and unapproved pages, so what could be the difference? Chris Day (talk) 15:00, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

I tried changing the metadata status to 1 instead of 0 and it didn't make the taxo box work, but it did show that same #ifeq error above this time. Could it be something on the meta page? --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:12, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
Whatever is happening I can't recreate it on the test article. Also it is erractic. It was on related pages but not now, for me. It was on the bibliography sub page too, but not now for me. I wonder if this is a server lag issue and we are seeing articfacts from the server not keeping up with our changes. Let's let it lie for a bit and see if it resolves itself. Chris Day (talk) 15:24, 18 October 2007 (CDT)
Good idea. I know the template on the recent changes page would come and go until the two servers syncronized or something along those lines. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:34, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Image adjustment

Matt, can you make this happen? --Robert W King 19:27, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Going to the new location shows no image, but [7] still exists...

Oxygen

I'm pretty sure that I added a quote from the Brittanica to talk:Oxygen yesterday (about the chemical engineer Carl von Linde). Now the quote is gone and also my edit is gone from the history list of the talk page. Since you were the first to edit this page after me, I like ask you: did you see that quote and if so do you know what happened to it? I'm certain that I entered the quote, but it is of course not impossible that I forgot to save.--Paul Wormer 02:41, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for your note

Thanks for your note. George Swan 19:04, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Archives?

Hi Matt,

You know how the big kids start archives when their user_talk pages start getting long?

How do you do that?

Aleta Curry 17:27, 22 October 2007 (CDT)

Symphony Approval process

Hi -- Thanks for the note. I think the symphony article is really great--I'll need to read more about the approval process before saying whether it is "approval-ready." I didn't notice any factual errors, and though I lecture on the history of the symphony quite a bit, I'm not an expert on the symphony (nor any of the main symphony composers). I am however a professional music historian. I'll need to look at the other approved articles to see how narrowly "expert" is defined. (For instance, Complex Number was reviewed by number theorists--so that'd argue for narrow definition, but Joan of Arc was reviewed by an Historian of America). If we need a narrow definition, I'll try to recruit a friend who is a symphony expert to give it a look as well. thanks. Michael Scott Cuthbert 23:43, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

request

Matt, cold you please protect the user page and talk page, and delete all other pages in my user space. Thanks. Kim van der Linde 12:17, 26 October 2007 (CDT)

Dangerous name

Matt, thanks for the warning about the danger of using /draft as a name. I've lost track of the draft article scheme here on CZ. How can I learn about it? Louis F. Sander 08:05, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

Moving pages

Hello, Matt. I wish to move the 9-11 Attack page to September 11, 2001 attacks, as the title is obviously incorrect, firstly because it was more than just one attack, and secondly because "9/11" is more commonly used than "9-11", anyway. Is there a specific procedure that must be followed before the move is made (e.g. Community discussion)? If you're wondering why I haven't done it myself, it's because of the doubt I just mentioned, and because a redirect already exists, so I don't have the technical ability to move the page. If Constables have the same powers as Wikipedia administrators, you should be able to move the page without any problems. --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 17:38, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. I'll talk to a History editor and see what happens :-) --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 22:29, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

Ken Rosewall Approval

Hi, Matt, thanks for the note -- have either of us vanished? Didn't think so! In any case, when I created the Ken Rosewall article, I screwed up slightly at the very start, when I didn't put the name of the article into the Hard To Do Template. Then I did the other pages. Maybe the one you deleted didn't take after I first created it. In any case, you can review the main article and see if it should be put back. This whole "approval" business is a mystery to me anyhow. I just write 'em, let someone else approve 'em, hehe.... Best, Hayford Peirce 23:41, 28 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks, Matt

Ro Thorpe 20:29, 31 October 2007 (CDT) < That's better.

Approving fossilization: is it possible?

Ciao Matt,

I noticed you are encouraging User:Natasha Barbolini to bring Fossilization to approval. I'm fine with it (the article is probably the best in Earth Sciences so far indeed) but I wonder: is it really possible? I mean, there are only 4 editors in Earth Sciences, I thought 5 were needed. Besides, two only are actually active and the other one is not an expert of the field.

I'll do my best to bring the article to a professional but easy-to-read level, but I'd like to know the technical possibilities to have it actually approved, and let User:Natasha Barbolini know ASAP. She's doing a great job and it would be unfair to say her "good job, but we are unable to approve" only at the end.

Please give me some advice in my talk page... Thanks! --Nereo Preto 09:18, 5 November 2007 (CST)

Your excuse is...what, pray?

I notice, Matt, that you are not at the party. What, you think yer too good fer us? Aleta Curry 14:52, 7 November 2007 (CST)

I'm still at work! Goodness sakes you guys are rocking the place! Don't peter out by the time I get there :D --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:49, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Subpages

Thanks, I'll give it another try tomorrow night or so. Shabbat coming in now. --Daniel Breslauer 08:16, 9 November 2007 (CST)

Name change

Yes it's Jack Sarfatti - but probably best to leave it as is - a lot of trouble to re-register since it's only a talk page and not a real article? I definitely want the pictures to show if you can do that? :-)

Server time

Do you notice that the server time is somehow off, or that the recent changes are not being synched? --Robert W King 22:26, 15 November 2007 (CST)

Yep, and I've been screwing around with the Date and Time in My Preferences, trying to fix it. Leaving CZ and then returning *seems* to cure it. At least it has momentarily.... Hayford Peirce 22:30, 15 November 2007 (CST)
That definately did not fix it; I had tried it already. --Robert W King 22:33, 15 November 2007 (CST)
I was having trouble with pages not updating without ctrl F5. My time was one hour off, but I thought maybe it hadn't updated since the time changed and I had just noticed. --Matt Innis (Talk) 22:35, 15 November 2007 (CST)
Whew! It's not me! Martin Baldwin-Edwards and I had an "edit conflict" about an hour and a half apart, and Richard Jensen replied to something I asked before I asked it! That plays with a girl's mind, that does!! Aleta Curry 22:40, 15 November 2007 (CST)
Wow, those guys are good! And I thought just figuring out things out afterward was hard. --Matt Innis (Talk) 06:56, 16 November 2007 (CST)
Testing. --Robert W King 19:08, 16 November 2007 (CST)
Testing. --Robert W King
Testing mine --D. Matt Innis 21:05, 16 November 2007 (CST)

Please help with Terrorism

Hi, could you please have a look at the discussion on terrorism and help to move things. Arno Schmitt 01:32, 16 November 2007 (CST)

I'll take a look. --Matt Innis (Talk) 06:57, 16 November 2007 (CST)

History Talk

Sorry, Matt Innis, why the commentary of editor Richard Jensen was simply erased? L'Astorina 09:47, 25 November 2007 (CST)

thanks for your suggestion

Matt,

Thanks for your suggestion to make the headline neutral.

Regards,

Carl

--Carl Hewitt 09:11, 14 December 2007 (CST)

The pleasure is all mine, Carl. Hope you enjoy working here at Citizendium. If you need a constable for any reason, just let me know. --D. Matt Innis 12:27, 14 December 2007 (CST)

How do I move...?

catalog of Italian cuisine to Italian cuisine/Catalogs? The thing is, there is a cluster at catalog of Italian cuisine. Happily it doesn't have subpages yet. What does using the move function do? Do I (that is, you) need to delete the metadata page first? What? Aleta Curry 18:56, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Thanks for asking that question, Aleta! As I bundled up against the Arizona winter and did my 3.3 mile walk a few minutes ago I pondered that very question, plus a larger one: Can someone find ALL the Cuisine of such-and-such Catalogs and *standardize* them so that the same name/format exists for all them. Right now it's a *real* mishmash! Hayford Peirce 19:03, 21 December 2007 (CST)

Hi guys, yes, that is what I had to do.. delete the catalog of Italian cuisine/Metadata page since there would no longer be main article page by that name, then move catalog of Italian cuisine to Italian cuisine/Catalogs (which had to be deleted first - but there wasn't anything there so I could do that without asking any editors). You're right, otherwise the metadata page would have been orphaned. Does that work for you? --D. Matt Innis 10:36, 22 December 2007 (CST)

That looks good to me! Hayford Peirce 11:04, 22 December 2007 (CST)
Looks fine to me, too. To answer your earlier question, Hayford, someone with a faster internet connection than I have could do a search. I won't, because to do that and then have people continue to add to the jumble would be a wasts of my time.
I've suggested stopping people from starting stand-alone catalogues in the first place, but Derek doesn't seem to like the idea. We'll see what others think.
I think we also have to decide whether it's American cuisine (C)uisine, Cuisine of America, US Cuisine...and so forth. Irish food or Cuisine of Ireland? It's going to remain a mess if we don't.
Then we'll have to put guidelines for the metadata page at the workgroup page--or something. If we all name and alphabetize the same way, life'll be a lot easier if you want to, say, find all the cuisine articles. Right now, most are coming under C for cuisine, but Thai food is under T, e.g.
Aleta Curry 22:11, 22 December 2007 (CST)
I think cuisine is named after the culture, not the geography. (Maybe Tex-Mex is an exception?) So authentic "Chinese cuisine" can be found wherever there are authentic Chinese chefs. That suggets it should be "American cuisine" (not "US cuisine" vecause there are numerous cultures in the US geographical boundaries, especially when it comes to food.). Richard Jensen 21:02, 29 December 2007 (CST)
I'm not so sure about that; there is "Catonese food" which is a chinese-food variant, often made by people who are both of a certain derivative culture AND happen to be geographically concentrated. Plus there's brazilian food, thai, japanese and these are mostly culture and location influenced. Although I have heard "american" food often referred to as "Americana". --Robert W King 21:05, 29 December 2007 (CST)
My understanding (and I've read a lot about this) is that true "foodies", at least here in the States, decry the idea that even authentic Chinese chefs can recreate genuine "Chinese cuisine" in the States unless about a gazillion conditions are first met -- the most important one being using the *true* recipes from back home, NOT what the (admittedly genuine Chinese master chefs) have adapted for American (or even Taiwanese) tastes. The NYT had a *long* article about this, oh, maybe 6 months ago or a year, concerning the "General Tzao's Chicken", a standard strip-mall offering. (Or even in my local Safeway.) It started out in so-and-so province in China, moved to Taiwan under a master chef in exile, who then brought it to NYC, where it expanded, then took over the whole U.S. What was first made in mainland China 70 years ago and what the master NYC chef is giving you are two different things. This whole thing is an *enormous* can of worms! Hayford Peirce 22:28, 30 December 2007 (CST)

How do I move...? part deux

Hi Matt, could you attend to the same thing per Talk:List of mountain ranges when you have a mo? Hope you and Mrs Matt and the boys all had a super Christmas...or whatever holiday.... Aleta Curry 19:25, 29 December 2007 (CST)

I did this, Matt's probably on vacation. Stephen Ewen 20:47, 29 December 2007 (CST)
I think Matt is away. I spoke to him yesterday, relaying a story that happened resulting in my discovery that my next-door neighbor may be a gun-wielding alcholic, and he mentioned that his holiday was very busy. I imagine he may not be back until after the new year. --Robert W King 20:51, 29 December 2007 (CST)
Yep, just checking in. I'll be back more after all the kids return to college after the holidays! Happy New Year Everybody!

It's working!

Fossilization and Sailing should be coming through the pipes right now and I think Joe Louis will be fighting his way into the mix in the next couple of days. I'd say this little experiment is a success! Hopefully some such system will soon be in place and will be used by enough people that it will work largely on its own. For now, I'm happy to nudge a little bit here and there. :-) --Joe Quick 22:05, 7 January 2008 (CST)

Good work, Joe! Keep 'em coming:) --D. Matt Innis 22:45, 7 January 2008 (CST)
I can breathe again! thanks Richard Jensen 22:40, 7 January 2008 (CST)
I bet that was a lot of weight off your shoulders, eh, talk page :) --D. Matt Innis 22:45, 7 January 2008 (CST)
Thanks for fixing the reapproval process.Richard Jensen 00:19, 9 January 2008 (CST)

Party! You're invited!

Hyah, ha, ha--you can't hide from me, I see you at the forums. Don’t forget to come on over to the party and sign in at one of the categories! Aleta Curry 16:28, 9 January 2008 (CST) say ‘hi’ to me here.

Interesting data on the validation of acupuncture points

Hello Matt,

I saw in your bio that you are an acupuncturist. You might like to ckeck the skin article, specifically the section about the traditional oriental view on the skin. First, I'd love to see you edit the sentence I wrote on the role of the skin, and its associated meridians and acupoints, in the macrocosm-microcosm interactions believed to take place in oriental philosophy. I guess that you might say that my account is mostly accurate, but not exactly. Second, if you read the discussion about this (cf talk page), you'll see that I gave myself the assignment to include the data from magnetic resonance imaging and PET scans about the singularity of acupoints in the acupuncture point page. As time goes by, I realize how much it is important to be collaborative, especially with potentially controversial topics. Likewise, I think it would be nice to have you on board for the editing of the acupuncture point page. As usual, native English speakers like yourself might find better ways to formulate things than I. (he he... is this a non-English sentence or what? Pure frenglish!)

Of course, I understand that you also have constabulary tasks and regulatory issues to address.

Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 08:36, 11 January 2008 (CST)

Subpages on approved articles

Hey Matt, I was poking around the approved articles and noticed that some of them do not have subpages set up on them yet. They are - Shirley Chisholm, Félix d'Hérelle, John Franklin, Horizontal gene transfer, Infant colic, Joan of Arc, Literature, Northwest Passage, Prime number, Telephone newspaper, Frederick Twort, and Vertebral subluxation. Also I noticed that the 2 Pittsburgh history articles have the subpages on them, but the bibliography, external links, etc, have not been copied to the appropriate page. I'd fix them myself, but I don't think I can. --Todd Coles 21:22, 13 January 2008 (CST)

I noticed this too. I guess the subpag bot missed 'em. I don't know how to fully move the approved stuff over to the subpage template yet, but it's easy enough to add the subpage template so that it "works"; but I think the articles still need protecting. --Robert W King 21:24, 13 January 2008 (CST)
Is that all of them, or are there any more? --Robert W King 21:32, 13 January 2008 (CST)
I'll put the subpages template on the protected article and create the metadata page. I coul duse some help moving the checklists if you guys are watching. --D. Matt Innis 21:35, 13 January 2008 (CST)
Also, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND some formatting corrections. For articles that have "Wide" pictures accompanying the lede, the TOC should stay on the left, but anything that has a "Tall" picture really should have the image on the left and the toc on the right, using {{TOC-right}}. --Robert W King 21:37, 13 January 2008 (CST)
I would consider those style change. Keep in mind that some editors are picky about the look of their articles. --D. Matt Innis 21:41, 13 January 2008 (CST)
Robert's formatting suggestions re TOC will make for more attractive articles and I welcome these edits on the politics and history articles. Richard Jensen 23:37, 13 January 2008 (CST)

I think I got all the old approval articles updated. For the Pittsburg articles, all that has to be done is to move the bibliographies out of the drafts for now. They all probably need some looking over since the subpages have been placed. --D. Matt Innis 23:22, 13 January 2008 (CST)

I've set up the subpages for both Pittsburg articles, as well as Northwest Passage. The material just needs to be deleted from the main articles now. I'll try to get more done tomorrow. And on a curious note, shouldn't the subpages be locked on approved articles? --Todd Coles 22:12, 14 January 2008 (CST)
Thanks Todd, I'll delete the material now. It was decided when subages were developed that subpages would not be protected immediately mostly because there would be so much more to add that we would have to be unprotecting constantly. We might revisit the question again once an cluster gets more developed. --D. Matt Innis 22:16, 14 January 2008 (CST)
Ok, I think I have all of them transfered over. --Todd Coles 12:06, 15 January 2008 (CST)
Good work, Todd! It was nice to come back and see it all taken care of. --D. Matt Innis 18:31, 15 January 2008 (CST)

Draft improvement

Hi Matt -- a user has made a few small changes to Symphony -> Draft which improve the already Approved article. What's the general rule of thumb: do we immediately reapprove the article? Or do we wait until the changes are more substantive? Thanks! Michael Scott Cuthbert 10:25, 24 January 2008 (CST)

Fossilization

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the offer. As this is my first approval, I would very much appreciate the walk through.

Lee R. Berger 22:42, 29 January 2008 (CST)

  • I think your instructions worked! Please check out what I did. The approval still says (version Jan 7th) and maybe we should look at an automated thing that says (Lee Berger nominated a version on jan 7th as is, and approved the version x for final approval - without changing the date of approval?) Anyway, super instructions (presuming I got it right that is :-)

Lee R. Berger 13:30, 30 January 2008 (CST)

Workgroup

Hi (how do we call you?) Matt, How do you start a Workgroup? I intend to start a number of articles on The Netherlands, mainly provinces and cities. Since there are some other Dutch authors also, it would, because of the categories, be useful to now already create a Workgroup The Netherlands. I'd appreciate your input on Talk:Netherlands#Workgroup. Thanks, --Daniel Breslauer 07:22, 4 February 2008 (CST)

anthro authors

Hi Matt,

Have you noticed the funny quirk that puts most new anthro authors under "U" instead of under the letter of their last name?

Lee R. Berger 01:15, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Hi Lee, I hadn't noticed, but I do now! Apparently some authors have been signed up but their names have not been formatted on their user pages by last name (i.e. [[Category:Anthropology Authors|Innis, D. Matt]]). It looks like the system places them in alphabetical order using 'User' as the last name. I'll bring this up on the constable page and see if we can get the process under control. Thanks! --D. Matt Innis 07:58, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Party, alas

Matt, you're starting to give me a complex. Where were you? Okay, you don't have to answer that. I'll just go sob quietly in the corner. Aleta Curry 22:03, 6 February 2008 (CST)

Questions about approval

Dear Matt, Milton Beychok asked me some questions about the approval procedure. But I did it wrong and you corrected me, so could you please answer him? See here --Paul Wormer 02:02, 9 February 2008 (CST)

Thanks for notifying me that Petroleum refining processes was approved

Matt:

Thanks very much. Just one question: At this moment are the Draft and the locked down Approved article one and the same? That is are they now identical until the draft may get edited by someone? - Milton Beychok 02:06, 10 February 2008 (CST)


Contraception

Please do me a favour Matt and archive the discussion on Contraception Draft above my last entry there. Let's clear the stables a bit here.Gareth Leng 10:06, 13 February 2008 (CST)

After which, comes the verb. Or does it?

Matt - looking for something else, I found a civility warning you issued, which stated:

Insults or personal attacks, on talk pages or other open forums, that are relatively mild, but which are still objectionable on grounds that they aggressively impugn the moral character, or personal or professional credibility, of a project member. It does not matter whether these attacks are made using Citizendium resources or other resources.

I think your first sentence lacks a predicate. You may want to fix that the next time you have to put on your civility-constable hat. Anthony Argyriou 15:09, 14 February 2008 (CST)

Hi Anthony, :-) You could look at it as a label.. you know, I was labeling his behavior ;-) Of course, this is verbatim from the professionalism rules. I now email those instead. D. Matt Innis 16:38, 14 February 2008 (CST)

mechanism/mechanisms

Hi, Matt. :-) I would appreciate it if you would have a look at a message I just wrote at Talk:Contraception (medical methods)/Draft#mechanism/mechanisms, which is really intended as a message to you, and consider implementing the change I suggest. Thanks. And thanks for archiving the talk page there. I just noticed it was you who did that. Much appreciated. --Catherine Woodgold 19:07, 15 February 2008 (CST)

Thanks -- that sentence is perfect now. Sorry to have left you the work of tracking down Supten's diff. I love the flowers on your user page -- they remind me of Udo Erasmus's website, which has flower photos sprinkled here and there -- he's a photographer as well as a nutrition pioneer. --Catherine Woodgold 20:08, 15 February 2008 (CST)
He does have some pretty pictures! I didn't see any lizards, though. It wasn't easy getting mine to pose like that, you know :D --D. Matt Innis 20:15, 15 February 2008 (CST)
OK, I admit, I had only looked at the thumbnail-sized flower images and hadn't noticed you and your friend Rob Tito. I waved to you, but I'm not sure if you saw me out of the corner of your eye. :-) --Catherine Woodgold 20:34, 15 February 2008 (CST)
Heck yeah, I see everything.. if you look real hard, you might see me wink ;-) --D. Matt Innis 20:50, 15 February 2008 (CST)
You look nice and healthy -- you must exercise a lot to stay so slim.
I have a feeling maybe we've had this exact same flowers/lizards conversation nearly a year ago. I'm also repeating myself about time zones on the forum. I will now probably proceed to argue with Michael Hardy about the use of TeX in inline math formulas and do a bunch of other things I should've learned by now not to do. :-)
Re got/have: Please note that the way I insist on grammatically formulating sentences in articles is different than how I necessarily always speak. :-) --Catherine Woodgold 06:46, 16 February 2008 (CST)

One suggestion and one question

Matt: You have always answered my questions very clearly. So I am hoping that you will do so this time as well ... or you can direct my comments to the right Citizens.

My suggestion relates to the fact that I renamed Chemical engineering to Chemical Engineering but found that the subpages Talk, Related Articles, Bibliography, and External Links were not moved. Yes, I did check the box asking that Talk be moved. It took me over an hour just to find those subpages and then another hour to copy and paste them all. My suggestion is that when a page is Moved, all of the subpages should be moved at the same time. What I went through was just too laborious.

My question is how do I go about volunteering to help edit and upload any Chemical Engineering articles that are e-mailed in to Citizendium?

Thanks in advance and I will watch here on your Talk page for your response. - Milton Beychok 02:34, 21 February 2008 (CST)

Hi, Milton, I haven't read them, but I've seen that you've added an awesome number of imposing articles recently! I had the same problem you did with moving a title, so it's something that needs to be worked on. On the other hand, according to CZ conventions, you *shouldn't* have moved this particular one: "Chemical engineering" is the way it should be. If there was a famous book you were doing an article about called "Chemical Engineering in the Ancient World", those words would be in caps. If it was a general article, it would be "Chemical engineering in the ancient world." Or so it appears to me after about 9 months or so here at CZ.... In any case, all the best! Hayford Peirce 10:18, 21 February 2008 (CST)
Hi, Hayford and thanks for your response. I know that changing the title was not in line with the CZ conventions. However, when I set up the Category:Chemical Engineering Workgroup, it would not accept "Chemical engineering" as its lead-in article in the upper left heading of the page. When I changed the title, it did accept "Chemical Engineering". That was my reason for the move. Regards, - Milton Beychok 10:51, 21 February 2008 (CST)
The ways of computers are mysterious! You got me there! I know that there have been problems in the past with getting entries to go properly into Workgroup lists. Some of them have been cache problems, in which the correct item didn't turn up for a day or so after it was entered. Maybe a Guru will see this and correct things.... Hayford Peirce 11:04, 21 February 2008 (CST)
Hayford, I think I found the answer. I moved the article back to Chemical engineering which left Chemical Engineering as a redirect and that was accepted by the Category:Chemical Engineering Workgroup. So I think the answer for workgroup titles of two or more words is simply to create a redirect using capitals for the first letter of word in the title. That is what was done for the Category:Healing Arts Workgroup as well.
In any event, all is well now with Chemical engineering and Category:Chemical Engineering Workgroup ... except to get the Workgroup approved by the powers that be. - Milton Beychok 11:35, 21 February 2008 (CST)
Thanks for the tip! What I did, when I was having problems getting the Workgroup to put the article in the correct place was to go back to the article, insert an X somewhere, save the article, return to the article, remove the X, and save it again. This somehow jogged the memory of the cache, I understand from people who know about these things.... Hayford Peirce 14:20, 21 February 2008 (CST)