Talk:Manga/Archive 1

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The image is pretty awful, but it was all I could find for now. I'm planning on retrieving a decent one for this and Japanese popular culture at some point. John Stephenson 20:57, 4 March 2008 (CST)

In need of an extensive rewrite

The article as is may be fine for someone who has seen or heard the word "manga" somewhere and just wants to know what it means, but for someone looking for more than a cursory definition, it is woefully inadequate. I hate to step on Mr. Stephenson's toes, but I would like to do a complete rewrite in the near future. Matthew Allen Thorn 21:29, 24 September 2008 (CDT)

First, no stepping on toes applies - a wiki is collaborative. Anyone can rewrite any article (though it's polite to offer advance notice and discussion of major changes on the Talk page). Second, this article is classed as 'developing' (see above), which means that by definition it is incomplete and inadequate. Hack away at it! John Stephenson 00:47, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
Also, if you substantively contribute to the article, you can't approve it yourself. It would have to be approved by some other editor on the wiki who has credentials in manga (not sure how likely that is...). An alternative is to write notes, references etc. on the Talk page and have others rewrite it. John Stephenson 00:55, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
Thanks, John. So it's a bit of a Catch 22. If I contribute, I can't edit (in the sense of "act as Editor"), and vice versa. Hmm. Tim, would you be interested in revising the article on manga? Then I could offer my two cents here on the discussion page, and approve the final product. Matthew Allen Thorn 09:32, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
That's right. It also means that when you substantively contribute to an article in your editorial speciality, you are doing so as an editor - authors can't substantively modify or delete anything you've written without prior discussion/approval. In some cases in the past, this has stalled progress on an article. But it's also good because you get some expertise in the article. John Stephenson 23:29, 27 September 2008 (CDT)


Hello, all. Let me introduce myself -- I have several areas of expertise and publication. One is sexuality (see my comment on the article Sex) and another is manga and anime. My wife Martha Cornog and I have been publishing in the scholarly literature about manga and anime for about a decade, for example
Perper, Timothy and Martha Cornog 2002 "Eroticism for the masses: Japanese manga comics and their assimilation into the U.S." Sexuality & Culture, Volume 6, Number 1, pages 3-126 (Special Issue).
Abstract in Japanese:
Link may be password protected:
Perper, Timothy and Martha Cornog 2003 "Sex, love, and women in Japanese comics." In Robert T. Francoeur and Raymond Noonan, editors, The Comprehensive International Encyclopedia of Sexuality. New York: Continuum. pages 663-671. Section 8D in
Martha and I are also Book Review Editors for Mechademia: An Academic Forum for Anime, Manga, and the Fan Arts (see and she is one of the two senior graphic novel reviewers for Library Journal. She and I have also adapted manga translated into English for the US commercial publisher TokyoPop ( -- you'll have to get the actual books to find our names).
So we aren't newbies or amateurs in the field of manga and anime. I hope we'll be able to contribute to articles here in these areas.
Timothy Perper 07:03, 25 September 2008 (CDT)

Revising the manga article

John, thanks for your encouragement for us (together) to revise the manga article. Here's my plan (heh-heh, sounds like a garde Z spy movie).

(1) I will create a sandbox for manga and we can all work over there.

(2) I will create a second sandbox for "History of Manga." Let me explain, and John, please tell me if I have this wrong. I wrote most of the Wikipedia article on "History of manga," adding most of the references and text. So I'll move it over to sandbox-2 stripped of its images and various other Wiki-isms and we can start to revise it for an article here on "The History of Manga." I think that's OK to do, since Wikipedia operates under all kinds of open-access licenses, but if there are problems with copyrights, then I won't do it. John, do you know about this? Amongst us all, we will certainly make some serious changes in the article.

(3) Images -- always difficult to choose, and frankly I don't want anything to do with downloading them. Discussing them, yes, but not downloading them.

(4) In another sandbox, I'll create something I call "Manga Extratextuality," to deal with aspects of manga that refer to often obscure-to-Westerners Japanese and other cultural and historical material. You'll see better what I mean when the page has been created.

Matt and I have worked together on Wikipedia on several articles, together with another new CZ person, Bill Benzon. I don't anticipate any problems with that. But let me suggest using my talk page as a central clearing house for these discussions, rather than plastering them all over the map in different articles.

So let me go to work at this, and John, if you can give any advice about rewriting the Wikipedia article on the History of Manga, it'd be very helpful.

Timothy Perper 10:09, 27 September 2008 (CDT)

Sounds good. For (1) sandboxing is fine, though it's something I've never really done with other people - it tends to be that users just work on the article itself directly, and their sandbox is just for them to experiment. But no problem - do what you like, we can upload a developing version to the actual manga article later; and your approach is no doubt better if there are to be several articles with overlapping discussion.
(2): if you are the sole author of all the material you import from Wikipedia, then the fact that it originally appeared over there is irrelevant - it can appear on Citizendium with no credit to Wikipedia and under the CZ creative commons licence rather than the Wikipedia one. The only thing you have to do, apart from perhaps writing more to cover gaps left by removing Wikipedians' contributions, is put the {{WPauthor}} tag at the top of the Talk page, below {{subpages}}, including a declaration that the material is yours. Something like: {{WPauthor|WP credit does not apply - material on WP written by me|~~~~}} In cases of articles written on WP by other people, you can import them as well, but there must always be a credit to Wikipedia (by checking the 'Content is from Wikipedia?' box) and you have to commit to substantively improving the article, as otherwise it would be a candidate for deletion.
(3): Sure, it can be fiddly, but there is an upload wizard that can help. Generally, images must be linked to their source with a real name. John Stephenson 23:29, 27 September 2008 (CDT)

New Material for New Manga article

I have added a good deal of material to the draft article for manga. You can see it on User:Timothy Perper/SandboxHistManga but please put comments on the associated talk page, and not into the article itself. Our intention is to finalize the draft and then replace the current manga article. ("Our" = myself, Matt Thorn, and John Stephenson.) Some, but not all, of the material is from a Wikipedia article I wrote, and I have inserted a comment at the very start of the new article saying that some of it comes from Wikipedia. Timothy Perper 20:03, 4 October 2008 (CDT)

Just a heads-up -- the draft of the new article is nearing completion at User:Timothy Perper/SandboxHistManga. If you are interested, please come by and read and comment. Timothy Perper 04:53, 8 October 2008 (CDT)
Except for some minor editing, the new article is ready to be put in. I'll probably do that tomorrow, plus a subpage describing some of the mechanics of how the new article works. Timothy Perper 11:36, 9 October 2008 (CDT)