Difference between revisions of "Talk:Chiropractic/Draft"

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(Omission: misspoke:))
(Omission: don't US sites dominate the internet?)
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But I have to agree that because the term is in some currency, and is used by some apparently credible sources, and for no other reason than that, it should be included in the article, with the appropriate qualifications if necessary for legal purposes. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 
But I have to agree that because the term is in some currency, and is used by some apparently credible sources, and for no other reason than that, it should be included in the article, with the appropriate qualifications if necessary for legal purposes. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 
+
::With respect to the google search, isn't the internet dominated by US centric sites, so that might explain such as bias. I am also from the UK and I had never heard of the term chiropractic until I came to the US. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 09:21, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 
Just as a point of interest; there are 451,000 google hits for accupuncture when the correct spelling is acupuncture.  If chiropraxy is a lay term, or misspeak (I also see chiropractary), I don't think Citizendium wants to be in the business of perpetuating a misnomer.  It's all about being an accurate resource.  If it takes us some time to figure this out, so be it.  That's what makes us different than wikipedia, a very important difference. The difference between making a statement like:
 
Just as a point of interest; there are 451,000 google hits for accupuncture when the correct spelling is acupuncture.  If chiropraxy is a lay term, or misspeak (I also see chiropractary), I don't think Citizendium wants to be in the business of perpetuating a misnomer.  It's all about being an accurate resource.  If it takes us some time to figure this out, so be it.  That's what makes us different than wikipedia, a very important difference. The difference between making a statement like:
 
*Chiropractic, also known as chiropraxy,...
 
*Chiropractic, also known as chiropraxy,...

Revision as of 14:21, 7 April 2007




Approved version 1.1!

I have placed the approval template for version 1.1 of this article. Congratulations for your hard work everyone! Stephen Ewen 13:16, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Stephen, Thank you! I made two copyedits on dead links. Please verify that these are allowable-we have discussed extensively on the Forums that approving editors may have a brief window of opportunity to "proof". Nancy Sculerati 13:46, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Yes, thanks Stephen, and I am fine with the two changes so all is good:) Good job on this article and thank you very much for all your patience and hard work, especially Nancy and Gareth. --Matt Innis (Talk) 13:54, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Omission

I'm a little surprised that a common synonym – "chiropraxy" – isn't mentioned in the lead. --Peter J. King  Talk  05:15, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Hi Peter, thanks. I suppose it would be a good idea to have a whole etymology section. We can work on that. I have never seen chiropraxy used in the USA. I do see it in the medical literature a lot. --Matt Innis (Talk) 07:58, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
I think that it's the more common form here in the U.K. (I don't remember ever seeing "Chiropractic" before this article...). --Peter J. King  Talk  08:56, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

That's one great thing about CZ, we can all fully realize that we're hopelessly provincial! :-) Nancy Sculerati 11:42, 3 April 2007 (CDT) Oh- but make sure it really is the same. I have to look up the actual terms, but I know that in Germany 2 different words are used, one for professional licensed chiropractors, one for massage practitioners who may be unlicensed and are not chiropractors, but use some of the techniques. Nancy Sculerati 11:44, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Wow, all those certainly are strange thoughts. If we want to make this truly "international" I suppose we should entertain the idea of expounding on all of those. As more authors and editors arrive, we can add to it until we have enough to make a section. --Matt Innis (Talk) 12:10, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
I tried to post this yesterday, but kept hitting error messages, and losing my dat. I googled "chiropraxy", and it is simply a synonym for "chiropractic" (used pretty well exclusively in the U.K., and pretty widely in the U.S.). --Peter J. King  Talk  15:23, 4 April 2007

(CDT)

How 'bout a couple of actual references? I have looked up licensing in several US States and have not seen the term. Nancy Sculerati 20:47, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

I did originally provide four or five references, but the software glitches ate them. For the U.K., the Royal Commission on Chiropraxy and Osteopathy is mentioned in a number of places, and there's this; for the U.S., there's this and this (mention of the Los Angeles School of Chiropraxy). elsewhere there's this. To be honest, googling "chiropraxy" brings up a huge number of hits, including British NHS documents, U.S. documents, French, Japanese, documents, etc. --Peter J. King  Talk  04:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
The Los Angeles School of Chiropraxy only gets the one hit. I wonder if it is a typo or mental error on the part of the person that typed that page? Keep lookiing for USA mentions. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:16, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, to be honest U.S. mentions don't matter; I just threw them in because I came across them. --Peter J. King  Talk  17:19, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

I agree, it would be more just to decide if we should differentiate according to regions, or countries, etc. for accuracy sake. --Matt Innis (Talk) 18:20, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Good point. I've got a couple of Canadian ones, if that helps: [1], [2]. --Peter J. King  Talk  07:59, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Peter, with all due respect, although it may be absolutely technically correct that Chirpraxy has been used as a synonym for chiropractic, and is used that way in some places, there are other considerations to including it as a parenthetical equivalent in the introduction. To do that, we must research exactly how that word is used in different countries under the law for practice of health professionals. It would be a mistake - in my opinion - to include this in the article unless the status of that word in the regulation of health professions in every area of the world where Chiropractic is a licensed health profession is verified, except as a foot note. If in fact, there are areas (perhaps the UK?) where it is equivalent,and not only mentioned as such in legal licensing requirements, but stands as the more commonly used word for the profession in that region, then that should absolutely be mentioned in the appropriate section. Chiropractors have struggled for decades to achieve a certain level of education and training recognized for practice. In every health or healing arts profession that has done so, there are always people without these qualifications who advertise their services using words that are legally permissible in the various systems, and imply that they are what they are not. The word doctor is a famous one, and although there are any number of references that will show all sorts of people using doctor and physician as synonyms (including physicians), they are not that under the law. So, in an encyclopedia aimed to educate the global public in health matters, we would therefore never begin an article on "Physician" as Physican (also called doctor) or (synonym doctor) because that might easily mislead the naive reader. Same here, the up side of including a synonym for completeness is not near the magnitude of the downside of muddying the actual limits of professional practice and certification. see for example,[ http://www.chiroweb.com/world/germany.html] Nancy Sculerati 08:17, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I agree. These links almost make it look like chiropraxy may be used by others to describe the method, while chiropractic is still the profession. They don't quite use the terms interchangeably. In fact the Royal Commission's report is on "Chiropraxy and Chiropractic." I don't see any chiropractor's using the term chiropraxy. I was thinking that this could be a lay term? --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:52, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Interesting; I'm not sure whether or not the impression is accurate, though it makes a lot of sense. The question now is whether someone looking up "chirpractic" or "chiropraxy" would be expecting to find an article on the profession, but which also deals with the practice, or an article on the practice, but which also deals with the profession. Speaking personally, I'd be expecting the latter. Similarly, in my own field, I'd be surprised to find an article on philosophy that took as its main subject the profession of academic philosophy rather than the subject itself. On the other hand, while Philosophy is about the activity of philosophising (the so-called "academic meaning"), its lead mentions prominently other common usages of the term "philosophy". --Peter J. King  Talk  10:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
[after edit conflict]
Well, some of my links were to NHS sites, and I've mentioned the Royal Commission on Chiropraxy. The situation seems to be that both forms are used here; the professional organisations prefer "chiropractic", but "chiropraxy" is used by individual chiropractors, and in respectable, as well as government-related, documents (a few more: [3], [4], [5], [6],[7], [8], [9], [10].
In any case, if "chiropractic" is commonly called "chiropraxy" (and this does seem to be a common synonym, in many countries), we should say so, even if professional chiropractors don't like it. Similarly, I should have thought that we should explain in the lead of Physician that the term "doctor" is commonly used; we surely shouldn't risk misleading or confusing people by sticking to technical or strict legal usages. After all, if the facts of usage muddy limits of professional practice, that's not our responsibility; our responsibility is rather to report the facts, though explaining distinctions and the limits of usages.
(I can't deny that I find the use of "chiropractic" peculiar (I can't think of another noun formed in this way), and I suspect the same response leads to so many people choosing a word that fits better with normal English rules. Still, the fact is that they do.) --Peter J. King  Talk  09:07, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

In terms of reporting facts- absolutely, and, since we are doing so in context we can even have a whole section on "chiropraxy". What we need are the actual facts about how this term is used, not simply that it exists, although that fact is a fascinating point that may deserve careful development. Our interest in no way has to do with what chiropractors do or do not like, it has to do with our primary responsibility of providing an accurate real-world presentation of the subject of the article: which is, after all, the profession of chiropractic. As to the medical profession, in an article such as Physician, you are of course correct, the word doctor would be discussed. My point, just a tiny one and perhaps made badly, is that in no way would this be used as a synonym in parentheses the lead of the article, because it is not accurate. That's all. Nancy Sculerati 09:43, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I'd be surprised if there were something called "chiropraxy" that was different from what's called "chiropractic", and which would therefore require a separate section — but if there turns out to be, then fine.
With regard to the physician/doctor issue, I suspect that there's a transatlantic problem there too; my impression is that "physican" is used much more commonly in the U.S. than here or in other English-speaking countries. It would be very odd in the U.K. for someone to call herself a physician rather than a doctor, whether she's in general practice or working in a hospital, though again the professional body is the Royal College of Physicians (which nevertheless uses the term "doctor" to refer to medical practitioners). (And it's also odd that the article on Physician, though as yet only a stub, doesn't mention the word "doctor"...) --Peter J. King  Talk  10:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Removed it until the issue is resolved. This is a continuing version of an approved article, which the articles "physician" and "medicine" (and all their ilk) are not- not yet in any approved form. They have not been worked on much here in CZ and so what they do and do not contain is not relevant to what they should contain, and hopefully, someday, will contain. As this article explains, in gruesome detail, this particular profession (Chiropractic) not only began in the USA but at the present time is disproportionately represented by that country, and by North America. That is another reason why, even if the term chiropraxy is synonymous with the profession in the UK- an as yet unproved thesis, but the two terms are not legally synonymous in North America, still the first sentence would not contain it as a universal synonym. As to having another article on the methods employed, if that is in fact what chiropraxy means, that can be done by interested parties.That however, is not this article, whether or not it may prove to be of greater interest to the general audience. Meanwhile, I would love to talk to you about the classics (if you are still talking to me after this dogged rebuttal) -wondering if you can help us on CZ with recruitment (would you e-mail me?). Despite the fact that you have tetanus (from scratch! I understand) I won't needle you anymore, particularly in regards to this subject - in fact- as to your toxic situation, only a shot of the immunoglobulin would have any effect in your present state, and that remedy is such a rare commodity that I do not have any handy. In any event-perhaps you don't need any immediate remedy. Your condition may have locked your jaw, but it has left your fingers quite nimble on the keys, I see. :-) Nancy Sculerati 11:09, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I must confess that I feel very frustrated; there are more than ample sources showing that the term "chirpraxy" is widely used throughout the world, in popular and official documents, and yet it's been removed from the article, apparently on the basis that U.S. chiropractors don't like it (even if this were a good reason, I've Googled and found no mention of this dislike anywhere), and it's not a "universal synonym" (how many synonyms are?). I'll take the article off my Watchlist and get on with other things, as I don't want my attitude to Citizendium to be soured as happened to me at Wikipedia.
With regard to Classics — it's not really my field, except where it overlaps with ancient philosophy. Neither of the two colleges with which I'm mainly involved – Pembroke & Teddy Hall – offer Classics, so I don't have any close colleagues in the field. I have friends, though, and I'll talk to them about editing here. --Peter J. King  Talk  05:26, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Peter, I also feel frustrated. I have written as clearly as I know how that it is not enough to simply google a word and come up with a large number of hits- especially when these are heavily weighted in other languages (French) and never actually define the word, and expect on the basis of the magnitude of the response to the search, and personal impressions f how the word has been used in one's own experience, that this proves the point. It doesn't. Not to the point that we will accept the word chiropraxy as a synonym for chirpractic to be placed in parenthesis after the lead word of the article. I don't understand why you state that this is on the basis of dislike? I've explicitly stated that this reason has nothing to do with whether or not chiropractors like the word, and I did so honestly, and I've explained-in detail-why it is important, for the sake of accuracy, that all words used to name licensed health professions have legal implications. I did so because I am trying my best to communicate. Those legal implications exist in health professions because most countries in the world (maybe every country) agree that, for the public safety, regulation of these professions must be carried out by the government and that part of that regulation is to demand licenses that can only be obtained if certain educational and practice standards are met. This is not the case with Philosophy. Nancy Sculerati 07:30, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, I too have to confess to puzzlement about the resistance to including the word "chiropraxy" somehow in this article, on the strength of the evidence not to be found on the Google search results page, but to be found on the pages linked from there, which are much more credible than Google. For example, in SNOMED, the Systematized NOmenclature of MEDicine, "Chiropraxy" is listed as the "preferred" name of a regime and "Chiropractic" is listed as "synonym." Here's info about SNOMED. Let me take a shot at replying to your arguments.

  • The hits are heavily weighted in other languages: in the Google search, only one in ten of the first ten hits references a French language document. All others are in English. Non-U.S. documents, however, do seem to predominate.
  • Never actually define the word: effectively, many of the documents do define the word (as in the SNOMED browser, which gave a "synonymous" definition of chiropraxy: it means "chiropractic"), or at least make it perfectly clear that it refers to the practice started by D.D. Palmer. There are no reasonable grounds for doubt about the fact that it at least roughly refers to the same thing that "chiropractic" refers to. Why don't you pull out the OED, Nancy? I know you have a copy.  :-) If we are worried that people will look up "chiropraxy" in a Scottish phone book and end up going to someone who isn't a licensed chiropractor, we can provisionally say, in the article, that the term "chiropraxy" is in currency in Europe, but it isn't perfectly clear to us whether it means exactly the same as "chiropractic." Of course, if it does turn out to mean precisely the same, then we'll be embarrassed for declaring our ignorance of this.  :-) Needs Research.
  • It is important, for the sake of accuracy, that all words used to name licensed health professions have legal implications: all right, even granted that it is very, very important that we call chiropractic "chiropractic," for some legal reasons better known to you than to me, that does not entail that we cannot report the information that chiropractic is also called "chiropraxy," particularly in Europe (if that's the case--I don't know; look at this). This is simply a matter of neutrality, as I see it.

But now let me put a little weight on Nancy's side, against Peter (I don't really want any friends!): bear in mind that, while a Google search is usually only weak evidence of anything, the fact that "chiropractic" gets 15 million hits while "chiropraxy" gets only 3,000 is indeed good evidence that the word "chiropraxy" need not get top billing, i.e., it need not be listed in parentheses after "chiropractic" is defined. That's because Google's implied usage statistics would have to be off by three orders of magnitude for us to consider giving "chiropraxy" top billing. Even if it got 30K hits, or 300K, it would still not deserve top (parenthetical) billing. Perhaps we could bury the reference some paragraphs down; perhaps in a bit about the spread of this largely North American practice around the world?

But I have to agree that because the term is in some currency, and is used by some apparently credible sources, and for no other reason than that, it should be included in the article, with the appropriate qualifications if necessary for legal purposes. --Larry Sanger 08:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

With respect to the google search, isn't the internet dominated by US centric sites, so that might explain such as bias. I am also from the UK and I had never heard of the term chiropractic until I came to the US. Chris Day (Talk) 09:21, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Just as a point of interest; there are 451,000 google hits for accupuncture when the correct spelling is acupuncture. If chiropraxy is a lay term, or misspeak (I also see chiropractary), I don't think Citizendium wants to be in the business of perpetuating a misnomer. It's all about being an accurate resource. If it takes us some time to figure this out, so be it. That's what makes us different than wikipedia, a very important difference. The difference between making a statement like:

  • Chiropractic, also known as chiropraxy,...

versus

  • Chiropractic, sometimes misstated as chiropraxy,...

--Matt Innis (Talk) 09:18, 7 April 2007 (CDT)