CZ Talk:Policy on Self-Promotion

Regarding links to author-maintained websites

"You may not add links to articles with which you are associated. Instead, you must request that others do this for you (e.g., on the article's talk page). Adding such links will not count as a request; anyone who notices that you are associated with a website that you have linked from an article should remove the link to the talk page."

On a series of articles about the U.S. Constitution and related topics, I have added links to my site, to pages on my site with related information or, for example, full text of historical documents. In light of the above, is this not kosher? I did not add the links lightly - the information is truly related and backs up the article. If I add these links to the talk page, what guarantee is there (especially once there are tens of thousands of articles) that the links will ever be added? If they are added, should I never edit them? I think this policy works for some cases, but may be too restricting in others. steve802 14:00, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

First, let's consider existing links "grandfathered in." After all, I myself placed a link that violates the new policy on John Doherty (fiddler).  :-) Note though that while no one should remove previously-added links purely on grounds of this policy, they might still be reviewable and removable simply because other sources are better. No offense, but surely it's an open question whether you really have the best Web pages about the U.S. Constitution. Ultimately, we want to link to the best of the Web on every topic.

I think we need a series of operational "request"-type pages, such as CZ:Requests for link review, or perhaps something less specialized, like CZ:Requests for oversight. This way, if no one is coming to your assistance, you can ask for help. --Larry Sanger 14:29, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Clarifying "closely associated"

I am thinking of writing an article on the World Science Fiction Convention (Worldcon), which is run by a substantially different group of people each year. The entity behind Worldcon is the World Science Fiction Society, whose membership is defined as the members of the next Worldcon (or current one when one is in progress).

At the 2005 Worldcon, I was a participant in one program item out of hundreds. Does that mean I also can't write anything specific about that convention? I don't feel this is "closely associated", but again, I'd like to get a ruling. Petréa Mitchell 23:16, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

This is actually a good question for the Topic Informant Workgroup (you could put the question on their talk page, perhaps). Personally, I don't see anything wrong with your writing about the general history of Worldcon--if, as you imply, you were a central part of that history. If you were, you could still write a history, but we would place it in the "TI" namespace and it would become reference material for us. --Larry Sanger 07:55, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Er, well, I'm trying to say I'm not a central part of that history. Not even this year-- I'm just going to be sitting behind the information desk a lot... Petréa Mitchell

Role of experts is central to CZ

To the extent that CZ is built around experts, it is built around their expertise, which is typically expressed in books, articles and websites. We want the expertise in the text of the article, so we want the citations to that expertise that readers can use. The older version of the rule seemed to say that the author can include his expert opinion in the text of an article, but must keep secret from readers where to find the full exposition that is in print or on the web. Self-promotion does not mean to prohibit the expression of an expert's conclusions on a topic. As for asking other people to insert references, that is embarrassing and impractical. Asking a non-expert to insert material defies the premise that authors understand the material they are inserting. We do have editors who can monitor the articles to make sure that unsuitable self-promotion does not happen. Richard Jensen 07:43, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

I don't think we're very far apart, if we can agree on the most recent edit. Of course the role of experts is central to CZ. In fact, the importance of expert knowledge is what motivated the policy in the first place: self-promotion might well make the resource as a whole less reliable and less representative of actual expert opinion. I think we agree about all of this, however. Richard says, "Self-promotion does not mean to prohibit the expression of an expert's conclusions on a topic." Actually, I think it might, in some cases--when an expert's view is idiosyncratic and not really owed the prominence the article gives it. Others are a better judge of this than the person himself. But as long as the article says, as it does now say, that a resource must be "a major resource regarding the topic" if it is all right for a person to add it in himself, then that's all right. Provisionally speaking of course.

The first sentence added, "This rule does not prevent promotion of your ideas, only your personality," is simply too vague to be included as part of policy. --Larry Sanger 12:04, 12 September 2007 (CDT)

Killing the Messenger

It seems to me that this policy against expert contribution will cripple Citizendium in much the same way that it has crippled the Wikipedia.

Instead Citizendium should adopt the standard scientific policy of requiring disclosure of contributor interest (instead of relying on prior censorship). In other words, contributions are judged on their merits but the interests of contributors must be disclosed.

Professor Kyle Gann [2007] remarked about why he permanently left the Wikipedia:

If there is a permanent structural problem in using my own research and expertise, what possible incentive could I have to continue? What would I want to write about except my own areas of expertise?

Given the dismal history of the Wikipedia, if Citizendium does not adopt the standard scientific policy then it has no chance with experts (including academics).--Carl Hewitt 20:29, 25 March 2008 (CDT)