Shouldn't this article be in the food science workgroup, instead of the engineering workgroup? The content seems much more food-science than engineering to me. Anthony Argyriou 11:58, 30 March 2007 (CDT)
- Me too! Petréa Mitchell 12:11, 28 April 2007 (CDT)
Removed the part about phytase enzyme
Removed the part about the phytase enzyme as there is nothing to back up this claim. No foot notes or any fact. Bread making whether by hand or by machine does not normally take 8 to 12 hours to make. The only time you would do this is if you are making a sponge type bread. Most breads are made from start to finish in about four hours unless you bake with rapid rise yeast. Bread machines can also bake at extended times. My Zo has this feature but I rarely use it. Mary Ash 03:23, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- These two paragraphs of biochemical information were the only addition added when the rest was imported from WP. It may need expansion (or even correction), but it certainly fits in. The article needs much more work (or a rewrite) before becoming "live". --Peter Schmitt 11:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I checked the references and/or footnotes and found nothing to support the statements. The article is also inaccurate as written as most bread recipes require approximately 4 hours prep time. The only time you go beyond this timeframe is when you make a sponge or biga type bread. I question the accuracy of the statements unless there is references to back it up. Mary Ash 19:54, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- In general, unless one is a workgroup Editor, it's best to bring up sourcing on the talk page rather than unilaterally deleting.
- I assume that this is about sourdough bread. --Peter Schmitt 22:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- The crux of the matter is that it makes no difference whether the bread is made by hand or by machine. I make bread both ways. Most bread recipes, including ones made by hand, do not take 8 to 12 hours to complete. A standard loaf of bread, made by hand, is usually done in about 4 hours. The first rise is about 1 1/2 to 2 hours while the second rise is about an hour. Mixing the dough should take no more than 20 minutes. All done by hand. The bread machine may actually provide a longer mixing and kneading time than by hand. Some machines have longer cycles. Also, you can run the French Bread cycle on the Zo and it will take about 4 hours to complete. Or you can customize the bread cycle. As I stated earlier the enzyme situation was not referenced either. I find this bit of information hard to swallow as I have never read this information on any of my bread making lists. Mary Ash 23:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I assume that this is about sourdough bread. --Peter Schmitt 22:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's the purpose of CZ to give more information than recipes, in particular, to give scientific background. --Peter Schmitt 23:36, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) I am not discussing recipes. I am discussing facts that do not add up (pardon the pun :-)). Whether the bread is made by hand or by machine most bread recipes are made in about 4 hours. Also, newer bread machines offer customizable cycles. None of which is addressed in this article. Making bread by hand, unless the bread is a biga or sponge, is usually done in about the same amount of time. If you are making a biga, for example, you make a slack dough that is chilled overnight in the refrigerator. You go from there to complete the task. Sourdough is made from a mother and the process is pretty well the same. I don't like sourdough bread, so I can not make any experienced comments about that bread making process.Mary Ash 00:00, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
- Was anyone able to find any more information supporting this:
- Immediately below, the bracketed sources are variously a report from a professional conference in food science, and a peer-reviewed article from the Journal of Nutrition. I don't understand what is meant by "was anyone else able to find any information supporting this", as those are two quite reputable reference, which, from a scientific standpoint, are at least as good as the respected firm of King Arthur Flour. What is the point, if any, at dispute? Howard C. Berkowitz 15:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
" Phytate issues 
- Breadmakers are used in laboratory studies of the breakdown of phytates in breadmaking, since they remove the variability of human bakers. 
- However, a home bread machine does not allow time for the enzyme phytase to break the phytic acid bonding with certain minerals that are essential for human nutrition. Traditional bread making produces a mix that spends 8-12 hours or more in the form of a dough, before baking. This time is required for the phytase enzymes to release the mineral constituents in the flour. (All grains are similar, so this applies to rye, wheat or corn bread, etc.)
- Therefore the hidden cost of quick and convenient, fresh, home-machine-made bread is diminished human nutrition, as the mineral phytate molecules are too large to pass across the stomach lining and into the bloodstream. In particular, the bioavailability of iron is reduced. The molecules are also unaffected by digestive juices and colonic bacteria, so are lost in the excreta. This is a common problem with all high-speed bread making processes, such as the Chorleywood Bread Process.Complete fermentation of phytates, a longer process than is used in commercial breadmaking, increases the bioavailability of iron in cereal grains. "
I will contact King Arthur Flour, they are known bread making experts, and I do subscribe to their baking newsletter. Mary Ash 15:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- Did you notice that I provided two journal references that phytate fermentation, in any fast fermentation process, does, in fact, reduce the bioavailability of nutrients, especially iron? Now, I might say that the material you removed could have been better-written from a scientific standpoint.
- I do have some commercial and artisanal baking texts that also address the Charleywood and other processes, but haven't yet had a chance to hunt the elusive little critters on the shelf.
- Nevertheless, where do we stand on this point? Does there need to be more validation that phytate fermentation reduces the nutrient value of bread, although it's not about to create massive world hunger? What, if any, questions still need to be answered, or is it simply a matter that the phytate issue is offensive to one Citizen? --Howard C. Berkowitz 15:46, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Transitioning from bread machines
They were useful as a confidence-building measure, and I still use mine for making jams and quickbreads. In general, though, I began to use them only to make the dough, with the shaping and rising by hand. I haven't gone completely to all-handwork, but I make the dough in a Kitchenaid food mixer, frequently stopping and adjusting by hand. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, the ABM is a great way to start learning how to make bread. Interestingly enough the folks at King Arthur Flour discovered bread machine kneaded bread surpassed bread kneaded by hand or by mixer. I was surprised so I ran a kitchen test. Sure enough the bread dough from the machine produced a far superior loaf of bread than the one made in my old K5 KitchenAid mixer. I still use the KA or even the food processor to make bread. The ABM is mainly used to mix up and knead the dough when I am feeling really lazy. Mary Ash 23:18, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
The article should be retitled the benefits of fermented i.e. sourdough bread
The reference cited thanks to Howard (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/122/3/442) is a long winded article about the benefits making fermented (sourdough) bread. I'm sure the article should be retitled or re-created to reflect the differences between sourdough and non-sourdough breads as it has little to do with the history of bread machines. And thanks everyone for teaching me something new and that's why I contribute at wikis. You learn something almost all the time. Mary Ash 15:55, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- Certainly, a page on sourdough would be fine. But there is no need to change the title of this article. It is about bread machines, their advantages as well as their disadvantages. --Peter Schmitt 16:49, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- "Long winded"? That's a fairly routine article in a scientific journal. It also is not especially focused on sourdough, but has to do with the bioavailability of nutrients after extended fermentation to break down phytates. Whether or not the phytate issue should be in it is a separate matter, because it's a concern for any short-fermentation baking. I just haven't had time to go find the commercial baking textbook.
- Any leavened bread involves fermentation.
- No, this article should remain on bread machines. I did add a bit to human iron metabolism, but it may well be relevant to have an article on phytates. Anyone who writes such an article, however, should be reasonably comfortable with fermentation biochemistry and reading journal articles. Core reference sources for an encyclopedia are not necessarily, and frequently will not be, written for laymen. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:28, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Add updated bread machine information and the history of the DAK Autobakery aka R2D2
I added some updated information concerning the newer bread machines. I also added the history of the DAK Autobakery fondly known as the R2D2 bread machine as it looked like the Star Wars robot of that name. I owned this machine which we bought in 1994. It indeed did look like an R2D2 robot and it made excellent bread. The loaves were vertical though. Mary Ash 04:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
Added info about the Manual Cycle and its benefits
Cited King Arthur Flour as a source concerning the benefits of using the Manual or Dough cycle to knead dough. On a personal note, I find this to be true and I have done informal kitchen testing. I compared the same bread dough but prepared one batch in the KA mixer and the other in the Zo bread machine. The Zo bread dough produced a finer, lighter loaf of bread. Mary Ash 05:09, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
- This is a really controversial argument that needs support on both sides. Speaking only from personal experience, I have stopped using the bread machine for dough, because, at least for the things I bake, I can adjust the dough being kneaded, more easily, in the KA bowl than in the breadmaker. Often, I'll add flour or liquid during the machine kneading, but I still may do a final hand kneading on a marble slab, during which I still adjust dryness.
- King Arthur is a vendor I use myself and recommend (unless someone else is cheaper -- they are on the high side), but I'd suggest some non-vendor sourcing on this. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:04, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
- While KAF may be a vendor, they do offer a lot of free baking advice, and a respected newsletter you have to pay for (and I do believe there are academic journals which requirement payment too) I'll try to search through the rec.food.baking archives or the bread bakers digest, for more sources. As a wiki is a collaborative effort, I welcome anyone who desires to share in the research. BTW I learned to bake bread by hand, still do, but for a loaf a bread I toss the dough into the ABM and use the manual (dough) cycle to complete the task. Easy clean up and a nice loaf of bread to bake in the oven. Mary Ash 19:58, 1 October 2010 (UTC)