Citizendium - a community developing a quality, comprehensive compendium of knowledge, online and free.
Click here to join and contribute
CZ thanks our previous donors. Donate here. Treasurer's Financial Report

Talk:History of U.S. citizenship

From Citizendium
Jump to: navigation, search
Fountain pen.png
NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
I wrote 100% of this article at Wikipedia. I intend to expand it.Thomas Wright Sulcer 12:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Check the history of edits to see who inserted this notice.


This is a good article on an interesting subject -- why has citizenship declined. This article may need to be split into different articles (it's getting long). What needs expanding (in my view) is more of the legal aspects of citizenship (or perhaps this could be a separate article), particularly constitutional provisions regarding citizenship. Further, the economic aspects are a big (perhaps overlooked) area here -- how a vibrant consumer economy, terrific jobs & career possibilities -- these things became more important and enabled people to focus less on citizenship. A person with a great job and money didn't need to pay attention to local politics. Another aspect of this (somewhat touched on by Kaplan) is that in some respects it's good if people don't pay much attention to politics since they can focus on their careers, inventions, growing the economy -- and this has positive aspects as well. The transformative affects (ie slew of factors pushing people away from local town meetings) needs more sources too. I'll try to expand this when I get the time.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 12:52, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Good start. Since it deals with pre-independence history as well, would "History of American citizenship" (well, British-derived) be more accurate?
That's perhaps a better title but I've already done a bunch of redirects so I hope it's not too much work to fix; it's perhaps best to leave as is, but I'll leave it to your judgment.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 15:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I'd definitely split the scholar sections out to separate articles, and, perhaps, look at more neutral approaches in some cases. Let me give an analogy: Liz Cheney is probably a Naomi Wolf nightmare, but, in writing about Liz Cheney, I've really tried to find rational supporting statements as well as criticism. In neither direction have I used the more dramatic rhetoric. The Wolf lede, however, seems to suggest an assumed fascist tendency; I've tried to avoid the opposite direction with Ms. Cheney. Incidentally, we really need an Alexis de Toqueville article, but Juergen Habermas is close behind -- there has been a lot of work on social capital.
Good idea. Will split up when I get time. I'll try to do the Structural Trans (book) article) plus the Tocqueville articles soon, plus I think we need one on Terrorism experts.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 15:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
"Town meeting", perhaps, needs to be more generalized -- "direct democracy"? In both Virginia and Massachusetts, I've watched as the [county] and town meeting structures adapt to avoid collapse from people who will go on forever. There are various experiments into Internet-enabled online participation, with good and bad aspects.
Good stuff too.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 15:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
As I get time today, I'll put in some {{seealso}} and {{main}} links. Howard C. Berkowitz 13:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Howard!--Thomas Wright Sulcer 15:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


Hi, planning to create lots of lemmas on the articles with wikilinks, as per previous discussions. The core articles should be this one, plus Citizenship in the United States, plus perhaps a few others such as Civic duty, Public sphere, etc. There are some excellent articles on WP which I may bring in on complex subjects that I don't have time to write from scratch, like United States Constitution (it's already there), Federal government of the United States but also extensive articles on each amendment (don't know if CZ has something equivalent). But I'll try to expand, improve when I can. It may be that CZ already has topics (but with different names) I'll check.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 03:22, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

We really need to standardize the article titles on Constitutional amendments -- the base articles, for example, are First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. U.S. Constitution exists; you don't need to import.
Tell me what the standard is. Is it of or to -- in the wording? Let me know what you decide.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 10:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I wish I knew. As I remember, but will look, the Bill of Rights just says "First Amendment". Howard C. Berkowitz 15:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I linked to extrajudicial detention, U.S.; there are existing articles on most of the Japanese internment cases.
Great, thanks. I'll find the ones and won't rewrite.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 10:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
(some overlap) Japanese internment, Extrajudicial detention, U.S., Japanese internment, Executive Order 9066, Ex Parte Endo. Yasui v. United States, Hirabayashi v. United States, Korematsu v. United States --Howard C. Berkowitz 15:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Wow, great you know this. Let's put all those wikilinks in if possible. Thanx.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 17:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Do you mind if I move the bulk of the scholarship sections to separate articles, some of which exist? Howard C. Berkowitz 03:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm okay with moving material but my inclination is to write more, that is, why not copy the sections on scholarship to separate articles (eg Kaplan?) and leave the scholarship sections here? That way, there's more; if we run out of room, then we can trim the article?--Thomas Wright Sulcer 10:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
My only argument would be that reducing the size makes things easier to read, and, also, increases the wikilinking. I'll copy for now. Howard C. Berkowitz 15:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll defer to your judgment. My thinking is about having a few excellent core articles such as this one with hundreds of supporting lemmas; and maybe after that, upgrading the core articles further as well as turning more of the important lemma topics into bigger articles, and keeping the interlinking as much as possible, to see if there's some Google Juice improving our SEO and achieving better SERP results. I'm also trying to think what the other core topics about citizenship should be? Maybe citizenship as a concept. WP has Birthright citizenship vs Naturalized citizenship. Maybe an article about the Immigration and Naturalization Service? --Thomas Wright Sulcer 17:41, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Laughing....Immigration and Customs Enforcement now. I'm laughing because I was part of the team, in 1970, that first took 68 million 3x5 cards in the INS and put them on a computer. As I was getting familiar with the existing system, we tried to find a record of my grandparents' arrival, who had even kept their tickets. No luck. On the other hand, for assorted reasons, about 25% of the 3x5 cards were for Maria Rodriguez (or variant spellings) and 10% for Juan Gomez. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Cool. Let's do that one too. Abbreviated ICE? One of my ancestors (according to family legend, but unproven) was one of the "first white women on Manhattan island" (supposedly) a Dutch woman named Annotkje Janz, supposedly buried in Trinity Church in Manhattan, near where the World Trade Center used to be; this was in the pre-ticket days of immigration. But the grave stones markings were worn away by rain and wind, and unreadable, so I don't know if the story is true or not. Do you have your grandparents' tickets?--Thomas Wright Sulcer 18:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Town meetings and dog licenses

Trust me. I can easily think of an hour of wrangling about dog licenses at the Chatham, Massachusetts town meeting. --Howard C. Berkowitz 18:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I'd like to do an article about town meetings too if I can find good source material, perhaps a book online or two, chronicling them, particulary the New England -style variety. It's cool that you, at least, attend. But the fact that the agenda deals with mundane stuff -- isn't this right as well?--Thomas Wright Sulcer 18:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)