CZ Talk:Dispute Resolution

How's this looking so far?? --Larry Sanger 14:51, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

It looks good, although somewhat indigestible. As a guiding document it will be fine, but possibly we will need to split it up into sub-areas, just for people to get their heads around it.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 14:54, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

I think the idea of a Lead Workgroup Editor is important for streamlining decisions. I have to say, however, that when such people rule finally in their own areas of expertise, it can be hard for them to separate out their own biases. More often, it is likely to be an intelligent disinterested party who is most inclined to resolve neutrality issues. For example, if I were in a conflict about Bill Clinton, I'd far-and-above take a Gareth Leng--a Scottish physiologist with a great handle on neutrality--over a person more closely situated to the topic by nationality and discipline. Perhaps the idea of Neutrality Editors is worth considering.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 15:16, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Since the workgroup lead is going to have a lot of administration type duties as well, maybe they don't have to be editors. We could use people that are trained and good at resolving these issues whether they are authors, editors, or CEOs. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:25, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

On Stephen's point, I agree absolutely. In my own work, it has been a great advantage to me to work on countries with which I have little personal connection, whereas people who are focused on their country of birth are not only narrow in experience,but also very narrow in perspective. Transferable skills is the key idea, I think.

On Matt's idea, I think that ideally we need for workgroup lead people who are broadly-based in the area, are at least of the intellectual standard of editors, and have proven skills in management or dispute resolution. I fear that the combination is quite rare, though... Without the status of editor for workgroup leader, it is likely that the others would not respect the process and we could have real legitimacy problems.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:37, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Steve, I agree with the idea that neutrality disputes are at least one special class of dispute that may call for a different method of resolution, one that is not so open to abuse. A group of Neutrality Editors might do the trick. Let me think some more about it; my concern is that for a long time I thought it would be the Judicial Board that would handle neutrality issues. But I can easily imagine that board getting too busy and becoming a bottleneck. So an intermediate "appeals body" seems to make sense. But then, we are already talking about an Editorial Appeals Committee. Here is what I propose. Since it is concerned with the interpretation of rules, not the creation of them, let's make the E.A.C. part of the "judiciary," and answerable to the Judicial Board. The J Board hears only the most difficult cases, as well as cases that involve getting rid of people (which bypass the E.A.C.).

I agree that there is no reason for these appeals bodies to be limited just to editors. I already have someone in mind for the Judicial Board who is not an editor, in fact.

More below. --Larry Sanger 11:19, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I think it would be useful to make a distinction between disputes concerning individuals in their personal capacities, and complaints against CZ official bodies or processes. For the latter case, I suggest an Ombudsman and some assistants; s/he would be answerable to the Executive Committee of CZ, and could be removed only by unanimous vote. With luck, the procedure might not be needed, but I offer the idea anyway. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:39, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Editorial Appeals Committee

The section on The editors role in conflict resolution looks promising. I think the Editorial appeals committee will work to solve most, if not all, of our problems. --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:02, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

My issue with it is cumbersomeness. One might find this only transfers a disupte rather than solving it. :-D  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:07, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

At wikipedia, it would. The key here is that Constables ban someone who does not obey the resolution. Harsh, definitely, but effectively stops there as far as the wiki is concerned. --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:09, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Cumbersomeness (a cumbersome word, that) is a reasonable concern. Committees are famously slow. If several people have to weigh in, you can't get things solved in a few hours, in most cases; be thankful for a few days, and hope for less than a few weeks. But this slowness needn't gum up the wiki works. The Editorial Council is very slow, but so far I don't think that its slowness has made the wiki any slower. If an Editorial Appeals Committee is slow, then it will be used relatively seldom, which is a good thing. Top-down governance is best regarded as a last resort in a project that thrives on bottom-upness. --Larry Sanger

I fail to see how a Committee is any less top down than a Neutrality Editor. To me it is a matter of attitude. Disputants cede some of their own authority whenever they go to another party or body for resolution in a matter. Also, the fact the committee would NOT be used frequently due to cumbersomeness and lack of speed is probably a very good reason to have Neutrality Editors. We want to prevent crises, and intervene early, not wait until things really come to blows. Providing a streamlined way, such a Neutrality Editor, to solve conflicts best serves that purpose. I am mindful, however, that this need not be an either/or matter between a party and a body, but both may be the better way to go.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 13:27, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, I was saying that the Editorial Appeals Committee would be specially chosen to deal with neutrality issues. They would be Neutrality Editors, so to speak, they just wouldn't be called that. I agree that both would be top-down. I think what you are suggesting is that we empower individuals to make specific "rulings" on specific cases. Right? --Larry Sanger 13:34, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Yes, precisely, not a matters of fact but neutrality, and according to protocols that ensure they really are removed, disinterested parties.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 13:40, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Maybe a Neutrality Workgroup with authors as well and Larry being our first lead so that he can teach everyone what neutrality is... Then that lead becomes the final voice on neutrality. --Matt Innis (Talk) 13:44, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I'm puzzled, because I'm agreeing 100% that we should have a body devoted (at least in part) to neutrality issues. Are we, perhaps, disagreeing about the name Editorial Appeals Committee? Or is it you think there should be a workgroup (or committee) that focuses only on neutrality issues? If the latter, why? Why only on neutrality? --Larry Sanger 14:05, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I can't speak for Steven, and perhaps I should not have intervened in your discussion. I am in favor of the EAC, though I feel that the name suggests authors cannot be a part. I feel they should be. The Neutrality workgroup was in response to Steven looking for a neutrality editor, but I was thinking that we need more than one... thus the workgroup. This workgroup would only be concerned with neutrality to address situations where editors were unclear about whether certain information should be in the article or not. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:06, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Will the proposed Editorial Appeals Committee be formed from an Editorial Appeals Workgroup or ALL the editors will comprise the Editorial Appeals Workgroup? Supten 00:03, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Actually, on my revised notion, the committee would answer to the Judicial Board, not to the Editorial Council. There then remains the question what relationship would exist between workgroups and the J Board; see below. --Larry Sanger 12:05, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

What is "neutrality" for an advanced encyclopedia? it requires an deep understanding of the scholarship to be neutral; people who are not experts will have a very difficulty understanding the nuances and the years of academic debates that underlie the issues. They will have to immerse themselves in the scholarship before they can make a judgment and in effect become experts. Richard Jensen 15:35, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I think that's absolutely false. Why does one have to be a credentialled, board-certified "expert" to be neutral? Here's an example: On the Tennis page, let's say, we have an "expert" who has a degree in Sports History maybe, from Texas A & M. He's written 7 books about various aspects of sports and sports history. In the tennis article he writes dogmatically, and emphatically, "Bill Tilden was the greatest male tennis player in history. He was better than Budge, Vines, Kramer, Gonzales, Sampras, and Federer." Period. Someone, a "non-expert" but someone who has played and followed and studied tennis for 50 years, says, in the Discussion: "Nonsense. Bill Tilden was a wonderful player, sure, and he *may* have been better than all of those other guys, but we'll never know. So I'm going to change the statement to read: 'Bill Tilden was the greatest of the early tennis players and still considered by some authorities to be the greatest of all time, but this is by no means a unanimous opinion; indeed, the general consensus today is that either Rod Laver, Pete Sampras, or Roger Federer is the greatest of all time.' " The "expert" then replies that *he* has the credentials, is obviously an expert, and is obviously being neutral in making his judgment. End of argument. My own feeling is that *I* personally, Hayford Peirce, know just as much who is a candidate for being the greatest tennis player of all time as any credentialled expert you can find. And I think that in an argument as above, I could act as an absolutely neutral observer who could try to sort this dispute out. And I'm sure that in any other field you care to name, that the same thing would hold true: that there are non-credentialed experts who are 100% capable of being neutral. Hayford Peirce 15:59, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

In response to Hayford, I consider a person who "has played and followed and studied tennis for 50 years" to be an expert on tennis. Academic credentials are not involved in tennis--Reminds me of my daughter who got an "A" in tennis in college but could barely hit the ball; she explain the grade was based on essays she wrote on tennis! My point is that someone who does not understand the nuances and complexities of a topic will have great difficulty seeing what is bias and what is neutrality.Richard Jensen 16:57, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

For some subjects, expertise is not so central. For others, such as my own area, it is central. Everyone has an opinion on (im)migration issues, yet there are few people in the entire world who have a sound grasp of the issues in any depth. And I think this applies in many areas. On the other hand, this is not to say that all expertise has to be credentialled and certified: did Richard Jensen say that? Scholarship is not conferred by diplomas, it is acquired through close study and decades of struggling with the topic. Perhaps, Hayford, you are an expert on tennis: credentials are not the issue. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 16:30, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Exactly. Why should an editor have to explain this to every author that comes along. By the same token, occasionally that editor may need a little reminder, too. Instead, a neutrality workgroup editor can just review the discussion and make the decision, maybe expalin some of the finer details, and everyone can move on. That way we avoid the escalation that eventually has everyone putting up defenses and choosing sides. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:44, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

And what will happen if the proper editors of a workgroup all disagree with the neutrality editor? --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:49, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

The EAC. The neutrality workgroup is just there to prevent the escalation due to a neutrality issue, which I think most of our disagreements begin as. --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:11, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

This is how I see it, too, Matt.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:39, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

The reason I think authors need to be part of the process is the same that those who are afraid that no-one will repect the decision if it is not editors that make the decision. If there are no authors in the process, then authors have no reason to think the process is there to listen to them either. I would suggest that for every editor we lose, we lose 100 hard working authors. That goes a long more with our idea of "lots of hard work with gentle guidance from editors", instead of "do as the editors say or else". --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:49, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Shortage of editors?

I think there is a problem. The articles entailing significant conflict tend to span workgroups, or be outside them - e.g. Jesus, Intelligent Design, Scientific Method, Pseudoscience, and those with political overtones where neutrality is about tone as much as content. Thus, I don't really see examples of conflict that can be resolved by a clear academic voice. Indeed, as the disputes often embrace editors with (if not comprehensive) relevant standing, it's hard to see us finding other editors with greater authority than those already involved. Nor can I see that recourse to a constable will help (in general) except to moderate behaviour; its a confusion of roles.

We are about writing good articles, first and last, not simply articles that cover everything at whatever cost to comprehension and impact. Whether an article is readable, interesting, coherent, logical, sensible, fluent, neutral in tone, attractive in presentation - these are important issues for guiding an article but can be judged by anyone, and these are lodestones that can guide an article past contentious areas.

We need, in cases of conflict, recourse to a group of editors from any background. If disputes do not revolve around factual issues but around issues of tone, balance, neutrality, presentation the issue to be judged is not a strictly academic one but should be about what steps are in the interests of making the best article that is possible. I think editors/authors whose expertise is outside the area of contention might be better placed to make recommendations, guided by these considerations, that would help resolve a conflict, and this would be better than adding another participant to a conflict. i.e. input from those the articles are intended to be read by; their perceptions of whether an article appears balanced and authoritative is important.

Finally we won't get final resolution without an approvals process that works for contentious articles. We don't have a workable mechanism for approving say Intelligent Design, even though that article now seems to be stable and in good shape.Gareth Leng 04:09, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Gareth makes an important point, which previously I have also made in another context, about the viability of this "federalized" workgroup structure. Can I suggest a compromise?

(1) That we have broad workgroup structures, i.e. not Economics or Politics but Social Sciences, with a General Area Editor to help manage conflicts

(2) That General Editors from any discipline can [and perhaps should] be brought in to help with dispute resolution etc.

The appeal of this arrangement is that there would be some division of academic subjects allowing a degree of independent direction appropriate for each area, alongside a cross-over between broad disciplines which not only would help with disputes but would also tend to promote coherence within CZ on those tricky issues. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 04:29, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

We have hundreds of authors that are underutilized. Many of them are better at solving disputes than we editors. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:50, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Agree with both. Gareth Leng 10:05, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Gareth makes an excellent point that I suppose I didn't adequately grasp until he made it. But I think we need to be very clear about where or how specific expertise is irrelevant to judgment. If there is a dispute about a matter of fact, or about whether such-and-such is generally regarded as a credible resource in the field, or how widely accepted a certain theory is, then in these cases expert input is clearly needed. But most disputes about neutrality, copyediting matters, comprehensibility or level, family-friendliness, and many other matters surely are irrelevant to particular expertise. For the latter, what we want more than expertise is good judgment, which is, as we all know, not at all perfectly correlated with expertise. But the trouble is distinguishing these two kinds of issues. Is there really a workable way to distinguish "expert" issues from "wise generalist" issues?

But if I understand him correctly, that isn't a problem Gareth needs to solve, because the upshot of what he suggests--he can correct me if necessary--is that workgroups should not play any role in appeal. (I assume that he is not disputing that editors should have the "front line" decision-making role they have always had.) If Prof. Bestertester of the Philosophy Workgroup says that the article must read such-and-such, and Joe Blow disagrees doggedly, then Blow appeals to a broad-based Editorial Appeals Committee--not to the Philosophy Workgroup. And this is so regardless of the type of issue.

I can see a way of making this workable for purely factual disputes. The committee has a set of rules (which can be adequately complicated--the rules have to be understood only by the committee, after all) that it can use to distinguish "expert" from "wise generalist" disputes. For the expert disputes, then, it actually calls on the relevant experts, of course. In other words, smart people, like courtroom judges, are capable of recognizing when to consult the relevant experts.

I can see two fairly clear advantages to having a unified, generalist appeals body. (1) Arguably (perhaps Surowiecki would argue this), a generalist body, particularly if large enough, would be more reliable because it has a broader range of knowledge and experience to draw upon. (2) Maybe more importantly (and certainly more persuasively), frankly, as we know, entire fields can have certain biases. A generalist body can help put a damper on these.

There are also a few disadvantages, I think. One is something Martin raised above, namely, that the results might not be as credible, and the structure itself not attractive, to many academic specialists. You all have seen how many people come and say, "You need an X (more specialized) workgroup." I think a few people have told me that they would participate more if we had some more specialist workgroup that suits them in particular.

Another disadvantage: lack of scalability. As I argued in this forum post, this sort of centralization might in time create an unwieldy bureaucracy. What would a centralized system look like if we had 250,000 articles instead of 2,500, and 100 times the number of people (and problems!)?

I'd like to ask whether Gareth (or others) really are suggesting that workgroups have no appeal role at all. I see that Martin is suggesting that we have super-workgroups, and that they have some appeal role. --Larry Sanger 12:47, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I think, as things stand, it would be better to avoid relying on workgroups -- if only because of a shortage of alive editors. The workgroup area, perhaps a "Faculty" by university analogy, is my preferred locus for appeal. It could utilize non-expert arbitrators, who would be common to CZ, or it could bring in other Faculties' experts. This way, you get enough expertise and academic legitimacy along with some shared CZ approaches. The broad knowledge of a generalist body is combined with subject-specific expertise. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:03, 30 August 2007 (CDT)