CZ Talk:Charter/Archive 2

Done

 * 1) Agree on Committee chairperson: Joe Quick
 * 2) Agree on the basic Structure.

Auxiliary pages
''The following subpages of this page have been set up to help the drafting process. The same editing restrictions as to this page apply there.''

= Comments on Charter draft text =

Real names section
second sentence is too detailed for charter. third sentence needs to be slightly revised to be more general.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:22, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What about this? --Daniel Mietchen 22:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I slightly changed your amendment.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not enamored with the exceptions. Russell D. Jones 14:56, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Nor am I. Probably, we need to specify why exceptions can be made, and who/what will decide. I am not sure that the official accounts need to appear in the Charter, though. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:04, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the exceptions. --Daniel Mietchen 21:36, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, but as far as I know there have been a few legitimate exceptions. They need to be allowed for, by some procedure (e.g. special application to the Chief Constable). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why we have the interim guidance section on pseudonyms. See also here. --Daniel Mietchen 01:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Resolved: no need for pseudonyms, at least from CZ experiences. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ratification of this charter
To me, this is not a subheading under "Electorate", but at the same level. --Daniel Mietchen 22:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Judicial process
I made some changes here, trying to be more absolute.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Professionalism
Some major changes here in the last sentence. I tried to make it simultanously universal yet with some flexibility. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Workgroups
The only statement about workgroups is that the Editorial Council shall have power to establish a workgroup policy. When workgroup policy needs to change, you're going to have to amend the charter which (rightly) should be a lot harder than changing an ed council policy. Russell D. Jones 14:58, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree, for the pragmatic reason that the workgroup system is floundering and it would take at least three months to get a new EC started on the problem. This is an example of what I consider "interim guidance", which is designated as changeable by the appropriate body, not requiring a Charter amendment, but usable in the meantime. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Author
An author is any account. This current definition posits a whole class of people who have accounts but are denied the rights and privileges of authors. Russell D. Jones 15:02, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, this seems to be the case. Presumably the idea is to cast inactive authors as non-authors, but this is not a good idea. Is there a need to define an author as someone who has written something on CZ, leaving as Citizens those who have not? Normally, a Citizen in any state system has full legal rights. Therefore, it would make more sense to say that only those who write or edit are citizens, but this also is not a good idea... I suggest deleting this. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:32, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the distinction between Author and Citizen. --Daniel Mietchen 21:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Mission statement
If the current version is to be replaced by some variant of what is being discussed on the forum, we should not forget to introduce the term Citizen on its first mention. --Daniel Mietchen 16:33, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just rephrased the mission statement and added the definitino of Citizens to its first mention, in the Professionalism section. --Daniel Mietchen 22:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Being Bold
I agree with the statement "A basic Professionalism rule, however, is that large deletions or revisions, or renaming pages other than for clear errors, should not be made without a reasonable attempt to get consensus on the Talk Page." but do not think it should go into (this section of) the charter. --Daniel Mietchen 16:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It might be an example of "interim guidance". Where should it go? Howard C. Berkowitz 17:20, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I put it into Collaboration now. --Daniel Mietchen 21:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I made some revisions to the last version of Being Bold, trying to make it a little more certain for authors. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Objectivity
I oppose the existence of this section and also the use of the word. I recommend the idea of inclusiveness as an alternative to neutrality, which also has been problematic.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Since we are supposed to agree on the draft presented for the discussion period, I have removed the section and paste it in here:
 * ===Objectivity===
 * Information presented objectively is based on careful, unbiased and documented observation. When conflicting information exists, enough background must be given that the reader can understand the merits and weaknesses of the major alternatives. The Citizendium is not a place for advocacy, nor for advertisement.
 * --Daniel Mietchen 23:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Let's try to draft an alternative here. The starting point must be the title. Suggestions? I'll offer "Non-partisan, inclusive knowledge" Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Martin, what do you mean by "inclusive knowledge?" D. Matt Innis 01:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean that it takes an holistic view, encompassing different perspectives, paradigms,premisses etc. Much as the Neutrality Policy also requires (but trying to avoid the word neutrality). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * So are we saying that articles should "include" all perspectives, but not require them to be presented "neutrally". Is that the reason to avoid use of the word "Neutrality"? What kind of consequences do you expect that to have? D. Matt Innis 02:24, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No. But neutral has the same problems as objective, namely that they don't exist. Non-partisan is my version of neutral. We might also include other descriptors, such as "balanced", "fair representation of competing views", etc., Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:42, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe, rather intensely, that the Charter has to make clear that "balanced" or whatever word is selected does not mean all views are required to be present, or, if present, to be given equal emphasis. The point about CZ not being a place of advocacy, I hope, is not objectionable; advocacy is inherently partisan. One can always rely on the Nazis for a worst-case example; I don't believe there is a requirement to give equal space to the facts of adjudicated crimes against humanity, and the justification for them. Someday, I hope to take Mein Kampf out of cold storage for a reasonable analysis, but do not expect it to be "sympathetic" to Adolf. Accurate, yes. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, we need something to guide how competing views should be presented. Maybe, "providing clear guidance on the extent of scientific and popular support". Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think on average, we are all inclusionists when it comes to our author instincts, but as editors we tend to be restrictionist. Some of this is necessary, but at times crosses the line into advocacy by deletion of opposing views.  This is complicated... too complicated for us eight to take the responsibility for. The concepts need to be effectively debated and settled, but not in this venue. Here we are just supposed to be creating the Charter that will guide future discussions.  We should just state that Citizendium will abide by such and such policy and then determine that such and such policy can be changed by 2/3 vote of some quorum. D. Matt Innis 03:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Hmm. Reminds me of the definition of pornography.. I'll recognize it when I see it.. What I think is important is that we don't allow biased, emotionally driven but effectively hidden, descriptions of competing views.  The dictionary definition of "objective" does seem to satisfy this for me -- as does neutral, but what is it that these don't satisfy for you? In other words, why should we try to leave out Neutral for something just as vague? I'm willing to consider anything that would seem like an improvement, but I haven't really heard it, yet. D. Matt Innis 03:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, neutral implies that you don't make any judgements at all. This is far from being non-partisan, in that I might not support a Socialist position versus a Conservative position, but presumably I want at least to hint that a Neo-Nazi position is not something that CZ endorses, even if it does mention its existence. I also want to indicate that support for Neo-Nazi ideas is generally very small, with occasional local exceptions. Neutrality Policy does not permit this, at least in its formulation. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Matt, I disagree. I don't think Citizendium has time to keep putting this off to future forums, which can't realistically be in operation for another three months. I think it's entirely reasonable to have what I've called "interim guidance", which is the best consensus of the Charter drafters, but can be changed by the Editorial Council rather than requiring full Charter amendment. This particular issue is one that, in my opinion, is likeliest to lead to the death of Citizendium unless a stand is taken.


 * Which issue is going to lead to the death of Citizendium? D. Matt Innis 03:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Neutrality policy that overrides expertise, and requires presentation of fringe views. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Martin, yes, I think guidance on competing views is important. Now, I can speak with a certain degree of expertise on different views within the original NDSAP, much less neo-Nazis. For example, in discussing the Holocaust, it is appropriate to explain the economic exploitation view of the WVHA versus the "security" killing mentality of the RSHA. I don't need, however, to describe either sympathetically or suggest that CZ considers them reasonable views. The closest to "sympathy", required under existing Fundamental Principle Neutrality Policy I can get is observing the regret, in the death sentence of Otto Ohlendorf, that the judges had -- that he had not made different decisions with his agreed great abilities. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Amending the Charter
Did I miss some discussion on how to do this? The current formulation looks highly problematic and over-prescriptive for the future, to me. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:50, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There probably was no real discussion, just the need to have the section and to phrase it out. Please make it better. --Daniel Mietchen 01:14, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll try another formulation, and see how people feel. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not clear on this..
The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter. D. Matt Innis 02:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a bit vague, although the Charter should not be too detailed either. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with "purposely vague", but don't have any idea what it means. I can see "conflict of interest with respect to this charter"?  Am I missing something that someone wants to make sure we don't do? D. Matt Innis 02:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree: I don't know what the drafter had in mind here. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll wait to see if anyone meant something specific by it. D. Matt Innis 02:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Collaboration
I think we should delete the second sentence under the collaboration section as too detailed for a charter:

Current:
 * The Citizendium is a collaborative project, open to constructive contributions by any Citizen on any of its content. However, large deletions or revisions, or renaming pages other than for clear errors, should not be made without a reasonable attempt to get other opinions. The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter.

Suggested as an improvement with expectation of further input:
 * The Citizendium is a collaborative project, open to constructive contributions by any Citizen to any of its content. There will be no anonymous editing of publicly viewed content. All unapproved articles are open for editing by any Citizen at any time and immediately becomes property of the Citizendium. The Citizendium also welcomes collaboration with external partners on any matters relevant to the project's mission, provided that the interaction does not lead participating Citizens to a conflict of interest with respect to this Charter.

D. Matt Innis 02:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)