Talk:Alternative medicine (theories)/Archive 1

What this page is
end of yearUpdate so to speak

Thanks for all the comments, they are appreciated, plus and minus ones both. They will all be taken into consideration, as the police put it, as the case unfolds...

responding to various issues raised in the discussion below

Yes, I'd like to have this page located in the Philosophy workgroup. It will I hope be a 'interdisciplinary' page linking philosophical and cultural-historical ideas with scientific and 'medical' debates. Howard said he'd like this made clear - I hope this now is. I do not wish to decide when it is finished, but I hope to shepherd it along a bit.

As Pierre has explained, this is yet at an early stage. The argument made below that content must be pretty final before it is put on CZ flies, as Pierre I suspect was getting at when he mentioned the constables! against the principles of the whole CZ project. This page - like all pages -  is put up NOW for people to develop collaboratively. In two years time it may still be unfinished, Howard and Milton and myself may have 'resigned', or been put in prison! and the page become quite different in focus. But pages need to be allowed to develop. Of course the links are not there, yes, it reads (at the moment) like an essay, no, I am still travelling and have no time or opportunity to work on it. The criticism is early and inappropriate.

Second point, the exisiting complementary and alternative medicine page has been noted and indeed there is overlap - so what is new! Often there will be overlap in subjects. We may need to consider this issue when THAT page has some sort of structure and content worth taking into consideration. At the moment, it is a stub drawing the bulk of its content from 'Homeopathy' (or so it looked liked to me) rather than being a genuine look at its ostensible subject. This page has a different aim and different parameters. I think it will justify its parallel existence - there is surely little to be gained from attempting to stop new pages at early stages of their development.

As Pierre says, give us some time, or better still, make constructive contributions. A lot of time it seems has gone into this talk page, much less into CZ content proper. Martin Cohen 18:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Puzzled for the need for this page
There exists a page on complementary and alternative medicine, which certainly includes alternative medicine. In many contexts, alternative, but not complementary, medicine is called a "whole system", which must be used to the exclusion of all else, with no opportunities for synergy. Complementary doesn't necessarily mean complementary to mainstream medicine; aromatherapy and massage, for example, seem to work better when used together.

Without a strong argument to the contrary, I urge this be merged into complementary and alternative medicine, which certainly should have a strong related articles section. There's considerable CZ feeling that we are better differentiated with a lesser number of highly linked articles, than a larger number of often orphaned articles. Howard C. Berkowitz 15:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Essay or encyclopedic article?
This article is an opinionated essay, the opinion expressed in it may, or may not, be of interest, but the article does not convey any factual encyclopedic information. --Paul Wormer 08:47, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Another encyclopedic problem
The article contains ideas that could link to other articles, and perhaps find synergy with other ideas. Instead, however, is isolated. The concepts are neither linked nor sourced.

There ar taxonomies of alternative medicine theories in complementary and alternative medicine and in National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine? Are they totally unacceptable to the authors? Actually, I see no structures under which various theories go, and I note the absence of the essentials of some nontraditional theories, be they biofields, mind-body interactions, manipulations, etc. There seem to be some philosophical concepts that raise questions but don't describe anything, which to me is the basic purpose of an encyclopedia. Howard C. Berkowitz 10:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I must qualify my earlier comment somewhat, there are indeed "encyclopedic facts", as for instance:
 * ''the onion was favoured by the Egyptians not only as a food, and used as a medicine, but also respected for reflecting their view of the universe's multi-layered structure."


 * but such kinds of facts are so much unconnected to the subject of the article and come so much out of the blue that they make the impression of being invented by the author(s). In an article about old Egyptian culture, written by somebody who obviously knew the subject, I would accept such a statement. But in the way it is presented here, such "facts" are very hard to believe in. What multi-layered structure of the universe did the Egyptians imagine?  Did they really assume the cosmos looked like an onion? How do we know that?  I've read quite a bit about the history of cosmology, but I've never heard  this before; a reliable reference is in order.--Paul Wormer 11:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Another collaboration problem
"but such kinds of facts are so much unconnected to the subject of the article and come so much out of the blue that they make the impression of being invented by the author(s)."

This in neither respectful nor useful. Stick with constructive criticisms such as "a reliable reference is in order".

Professor Wormer, it is interesting to note that you claim "I've read quite a bit about the history of cosmology", but bring nothing to the article. Should I remind you that this encyclopedia is a collaborative project?

Howard, thanks for the input. This article is in its infancy. At the end of the day, the goal is to get approval, and we're all aware of what it means.

--Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 16:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * As you say, CZ is a collaborative project. Given that, I can't help wonder why this article suddenly appeared, when there is a clearly relevant article, complementary and alternative medicine (CAM), which indeed needs much work. I plan to be doing substantial editing very soon, as soon as I get an answer back on a collaborative question. Hopefully that will be today, which will include, in part, either adapting or cloning the taxonomy of CAM techniques in National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.


 * "Alternative" and "complementary" medicine have related but distinct meanings; the titling of the other article CAM was a deliberate change. Is this article really meant to discuss alternative medicine alone, in isolation? If it is, then why is it not linked to that to which it is an alternative?


 * On the CAM talk page, there is an active discussion of theories, in which there was no question, by the main creator(s) of this article, that there were concerns about theories. The main page of the current article has absolutely no wikilinks to other articles, and indeed doesn't follow CZ formatting or flow conventions.  There are many flat assertions that should be sourced, but there are exactly zero citations.


 * So, what is the problem that this article is trying to solve, which cannot be addressed as an extension and enhancement of existing work? Sorry, but what has happened here so far doesn't feel very collaborative. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

life and the universe

 * "Under this paradigm, it is believed (but not provable) that, by reducing life to its most fundamental components, by analyzing all its details, it will be possible to account for the observed universe."

Isn't this mixing up biology and physics? Why life? I would have thought matter would be more appropriate? Chris Day 20:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * it depends on the point of view. When the article develops, it will become evident (IMO) that different theories ascribe different relationships between life and matter. Let's keep your point in mind, shall we?
 * --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 17:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Sheldrake

 * "When he published in a book his analyses and hypotheses, the most respected journal, Nature, called his book "a book for burning" through the voice of John Maddox, the editor-in-chief. Rupert Sheldrake had proposed the notion of morphogenetic fields, a notion not unlike Plato's Ideas."

This implies that morphogenetic fields are some how heretical yet they are standard fare in biology, what makes Sheldrake's distinct? Chris Day 20:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I just read some of his stuff, you mean morphic fields and morphic resonance. i don't understand why the self organising principles in biology cannot account for morphic resonance? Chris Day 20:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * More and more, I'm getting a sense that this article was created from the perspective that philosophical, social, and other paradigms than a bioscience one should be used for describing at least medicine, and, for that matter, all existence. Fine. If so, say it explicitly, and source it; there's a comment at homeopathy about "we must" consider alternatives.


 * This article does not seem to be about theories of alternative medicine. It seems to be about an alternate view of biology, and perhaps concepts at the level of cosmology and matter. It's certainly not limited to medicine, as it is now titled.


 * If a discussion of theories of alternative medicine specifically, accepting at least some bioscience context, is desired, that should be edited into complementary and alternative medicine. If a discussion of alternative health-positive techniques not using a bioscience context is desired, rename this article, because it's otherwise redefining "medicine". If a discussion of all existences, from some paradigm that I don't understand, is desired, the authors thereof should start out with a sufficiently clear title and introduction so that the reader can have some idea what is to be read. I have to agree that right now, this comes across as a rambling essay, completely isolated with no links or sources, but carrying a flavor of rejecting conventional ideas for the sake of rejecting. Perhaps the title should be phrased in philosophical terms, but it just doesn't seem to match the content.Howard C. Berkowitz 21:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that we'll address all those things when this page advances. Right now, it's Martin first draft, followed by mine. Thank you for your patience.
 * --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 05:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm a little confused. Why put this out on a page if you don't want comments? There are times where I will put an article in mainspace that I'd really rather not have changed at first, because I may be testing some links or article merges that only work in mainspace. There are several articles where I'm variously working as a workgroup editor to help improve an article in a specialized area, which isn't going to gather a large audience. In another case, a couple of experienced people are helping a first-time author adjust to CZ conventions, and, while there were concerns at first, it's been highly interactive.


 * In this case, I'm rather puzzled. When I get comments that my draft is hard to follow, I consider them seriously, and at least respond. Indeed, there was a recent case where just such a situation arose, and, it turned out, part of the problem was assuming that several sections must be wrong because Wikipedia said otherwise -- even though the article cited primary sources. That finally took an editor ruling on fact.


 * So, I guess, progress away. Do let others know when they may question. Please do not thank me for my patience, as I really am not offering any. Now, I've had cases where someone started bold rewriting of my text as I was still typing it, and that was considered unreasonable by many. Commenting on the talk page, however, is quite within the rules and, I believe, customs of CZ. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Time
So okay, you have much time to write on this talk page, to ask many questions, and you expect others to follow your rythm. And you have no patience to offer. I'm calling a constable. --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 06:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Pierre-Alain, may I offer a suggestion? One way to avoid having people comment on an article in development is to do all of your development in a personal sandbox. I have written a good many articles in CZ and I have first developed all of them in my sandbox before I create a new article. In that way, when you create a new article, it is ready to receive comments on its Talk page since you will have developed it to the limit of your ability. If needed, you can invite others to comment in the Talk page of your sandbox ... again before creating a new article.


 * If you are unfamiliar with how to create a sandbox, I should be happy to create one for you ... just let me know. -Milton Beychok 07:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Pierre-Alain, I'm not a constable by any means, but I've certainly been around CZ for a lengthy period now and have interacted in various ways with many people in many different articles. It seems to me that you (and perhaps Martin) are very incorrectly attempting to claim ownership of a particular article and doing whatever you can to prevent anyone else from participating or even contributing to it. I recall to you, as I'm sure the constables, or even Larry himself, eventually will: no one owns articles in CZ; EVERYONE is free, even encouraged to edit them at will. Please consider this carefully and then act accordingly. Thank you. Hayford Peirce 16:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Milton's suggestion is a good one. If you don't want others to comment, do the work in a sandbox. It's perfectly fair, and I think that the constables will agree, that the owner of the sandbox can say who, if anyone, can comment on text there. That is not true in mainspace. I have seen things in mainspace where there was an explicit request for only certain people to change sections for a defined period of time, which was agreed-to by constables, editors, or both. Note that I am speaking of changing things, which is more dramatic than asking questions on a talk page. There was no prior warning on the talk page that comments are unwelcome. Howard C. Berkowitz 10:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Constable comment
Gentlemen, I see this article is currenty only under the Healing Arts Workgroup. From what I can tell, that means there are no editors active on this page. Anyone can make comments or changes to pages and talk pages provided they do not violate the CZ:Professionalism conventions. If there is a question of the need for this article, it needs to be answered by the workgroup or barring that, the Editor in Chief. There is nothing that says that anyone need respond to everything written on a talp page, though courtesy might suggest that you do. D. Matt Innis 15:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Though I am a healing arts editor, I will be working this article as a constable. Nothing I say should be construed as an editor's suggestion or ruling. D. Matt Innis 15:48, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I would like to add, Matt, as while, speaking as an individual, I do not see the need for this article, especially when there are existing related ones, my comment here was to ask for clarification as to the purpose of this article, as opposed to adding material to other articles. There might be perfectly good reasons for the article. There might not be awareness of other related pages. The only way to determine this is to ask questions on the talk page. I agree there is no obligation to answer, although it may be courteous and wise to do so.Howard C. Berkowitz 15:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * These are editorial decisions. Be careful not to turn them into professional ones. D. Matt Innis 16:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Attribution
Matt: "Gentlemen, I see this article is currenty only under the Healing Arts Workgroup." It is appropriate to place it in the philosophy workgroup (Martin Cohen, philosophy editor, created it). It is also appropriate to recognize Martin as an editor for this philosophy page. --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 17:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Pierre, while Martin, a philosophy editor, created this article, that does not automatically place it in the Philosophy Workgroup. Workgroups can decide where their interests lie.  It would have to be an article that has a philosophy element and of interest to philosophers.  If there is a dispute there, that is a between workgroups and I would refer them to the Editor in Chief, that would be a content decision that a constable will not dictate. D. Matt Innis 18:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Pierre, while Martin, a philosophy editor, created this article, that does not automatically place it in the Philosophy Workgroup."
 * It wasn't my intention to suggest that it was automatic. My intention was to suggest that a philosophy editor had had the (good) idea to create a philosophy page about a topic.
 * Matt, I was quoting you because I wanted to provide context.
 * "Gentlemen, I see this article is currenty only under the Healing Arts Workgroup."
 * (emphasis mine)
 * None of the policy implications were intended; actually, the policy debate started with Howard's response.
 * I will be offline for a (short) while.
 * --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 19:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 19:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Understood, thanks Pierre. D. Matt Innis 19:45, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If he contributed substantially to the writing of the article, he is not allowed, under CZ rules, to exercise Editor authority over it. As an example of how this works even in a noncontroversial case, I am an editor in several groups, including Engineering. I was asked to assist in getting an article ready for Approval, and then signing off on the article so that it could be approved.


 * When I read the page, which dealt with chemical engineering, it seemed to be missing some information on safety and emergency response procedures should the manufacturing plant have an accident and release ammonia into the atmosphere. Had I made the changes myself, I would have lost the ability to approve the article or make rulings on it, without special approval. So, I did some research, put the results on the talk page, and let the author select what he wanted from the citations I provided. He did select and rephrase some of the material, so I was able to approve the article because I was not approving my own work.


 * There are cases where an editor can be part of the approval of an article on which he has worked, but the basic rule is that two other editors of workgroup(s) having responsibility over the article, have to agree. There can be exceptions, but this would require Editor-in-Chief or Editorial Council approval. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:38, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If this article were to fall under a workgroup in which an author is an editor, I don't see anything that would prohibit them from choosing to become an editor on the page, though they could choose not to if they don't feel qualified. I also don't see any rules that suggest that an editor cannot write the entire article and not be allowed to exercise editor priveleges.  If there are other interpretations, these need to be cleared up on in the Editorial council. D. Matt Innis 18:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For the narrow context of Approval, see http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ:Approval_Process&action=edit&section=3. An Editor, therefore, is explicitly forbidden to exercise Approval authority on articles to which they have contributed. You've frequently observed that one cannot be both Constable and Editor on the same article.


 * I hope it doesn't come to taking this to the Editorial Council, but if an article's primary focus is in a given workgroup "A", but it does have aspects that make multiple workgroups relevant, I hope it's generally accepted that a expert in workgroup "B" can make content rulings on specific points that are discipline "A" areas. For example, I am a Computers and Military and Engineering Editor, and cryptography legitimately relates to all of them. I can legitimately make content rulings on how cryptography is used in computers, the history of miitary intelligence used against encryption, and the design of physical encryption equipment. I am not professionally qualified, however, to rule on the mathematical details of an encryption algorithm; that would be a matter for a Mathematics editor. In this case, professional expertise in philosophy does not make one qualified to make rulings on biology-specific aspects of the article. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * For the narrow context of Approval, see http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ:Approval_Process&action=edit&section=3. Yes, this is for the approval process only, they can still make style and content decisions.


 * An Editor, therefore, is explicitly forbidden to exercise Approval authority on articles to which they have contributed. I don't see this anywhere.  They can still participate in the group editor approval. Maybe we are agreeing here? D. Matt Innis 19:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your second paragraph, though I don't recall it as written in policy. D. Matt Innis 19:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

"Comments not welcome"
Howard has created this impression that comments are not welcome. If you read what I say, you'll see that it is a misrepresentation. Comments are welcome. --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 17:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Two short responses. More to come.
 * --Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 18:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Please do not use links to previous pages, etc., to respond to comments. The CZ custom, if you do respond, is to do so following the question. I was not aware I had the power to create impressions that comments were not welcome. Clearly, comments may be made. Clearly, there may be answers, or requests "to have patience." Howard C. Berkowitz 04:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)