User talk:Hayford Peirce

Threading
Moving this discussion from ID talk page. Do you remember if there was already a discussion in the forum. If so I think I missed it and i don't want to rehash old news. Chris Day 17:04, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, there was one several months ago, in which I *thought* some sort of consensus was arrived at. Milton, I believe, was writing the text for this blue Etiquette box that we see at the top of the screen, and we were discussing what exactly to put into it. I thought that it was *you* who was doing the actual writing of the template and also, maybe, participating in the discussion. But, I guess, you were just putting in what Milton asked you to. Having gone through that one discussion, this is why I get annoyed, sometimes, when people seem to arbitrarily decide not to play by the rules/guidelines/suggestions/whatever that were talked about. (I think that as a result of the discussion, someone *also* went in the CZ:HowToDo things and rewrote it to say that the use of indents in threading *was* the way to do it, not merely a "suggestion".) Hayford Peirce 17:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)"
 * May I point out, Hayford, that threading refers specifically to the system which you are deprecating? :-p
 * Also, re. "people seem to arbitrarily decide not to play by the rules" - I've never actually come across such rules, and until you mentioned them the other day I had no idea that discussions were supposed to be linear.
 * Anyhow, I am very much in favour of a new discussion or a vote. I believe the form software allows them to be set up very easily.
 * Caesar Schinas 17:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm all for a new discussion, just as long as it gives a definitive, permanent answer. I don't care one way or another, except I do have my own personal opinion, of course. Lemme look for where what I call "the rules" spell it out -- I know it's there somewhere. (I myself didn't just arbitrarily decide one day that we were going to use colons for indents come hell or high water!) Hayford Peirce 17:38, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Here, Caesar, take a look at this: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ:How_to_use_talk_pages&action=edit&section=4 There's probably some wriggle room in there, but maybe not. The intent seems clear, however. I know that *you* weren't here at the time of the discussion (which apparently was back in January), but some of the other people who disagree with the indentation system *were* here and, I think, didn't raise their voices very strongly in opposition. (In their defense, I *will* say that we were struggling with two different issues at the same time. We had just gone through some problems with, shall I say, a "difficult" contributor, who insisted first on putting all new comments at the top of the page, and using/or not using the indent or anything-other system except in his own totally arbitrary manner. It was in a reaction to him that we rewrote the rules.) Hayford Peirce 17:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I have not read your link yet, but here's the interesting thing. I did write the text in the blue box, but my interpretation of that text seems to be different to your own. Obviously this is more subjective than we had realised.  This makes me suspect I missed the discussion since I think I would have brought this up at the time, if I had noticed it. Anyway, I'll now go back and read the original discussion. Chris Day 17:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Great! And if, after you find it, you would put a link to it here, I would be very grateful! Hayford Peirce 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * So I did participate on the talk page but not on the CZ page. As far as i can tell, the scenario where two people reply to the same person is not discussed. OK it is. I guess I disagree with that example. I should read the talk page more carefully to see what the rationale was.  For your information, I would have thought the example in that link should look like the following since both lisa and george are replying to Bob. In the current example it looks like George is replying to Lisa.  Chris Day 18:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Example:

The above will produce this:

Yes, I can see that. Geez, what a can of worms! Hayford Peirce 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It depends what is valued most. An effort to maintain the chronology of replies by indenting or an effort to match the replies in the correct context. Obviously this is only an issue when multiple people are involved in a discussion. I prefer the example where the two replies are on the same level since it is then obvious that Lisa and George are both replying to Bob. In our current example:
 * {| border="1" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"

How's the soup? --Bob
 * It's great!! --Lisa
 * Not too bad.. --George
 * I made it myself! --Bob

I think the soup discussion should be moved to Talk:Soup.. --Lisa
 * I tend to disagree. --George


 * }
 * I had to read for context to determine who George was addressing. The chronology, for me, is less of an issue since you can untie complex pages by stepping through the edit history or looking at the time stamp. For me, reading for context is more time consuming on a busy talk page. Obviously neither solution is near perfect. Chris Day 18:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the example seems pretty clear to me; it shows threading.
 * Bob asks how the soup is. Lisa and George people answer him, each indented one level. He then replies to George of them, indenting a further one level.
 * Below, a separate discussion is taking place. Lisa suggest moving the soup discussion, and George replies - indenting one level - to say that he disagrees.
 * The only complaint I have about the example is that the spacing is a little weird. I think we should allways leave a blanbk line between one comment and the next, with the possible exception of if they are both by the same person.
 * Caesar Schinas 06:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Lisa and George people answer him, each indented one level." The problem is that our current example does not do this. I agree about the blank line. it makes it much easier to find the relevant text when in edit mode. Chris Day 17:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah yes; I see that now. I had thought the first example was a copy-paste from the instructions, because I just skimmed the posts above... never a good idea! Caesar Schinas 21:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's start a new one, to clear the air
Oh, I thought you meant you were going to find a Forums discussion. Am I misremembering and *all* of the discussion was on a talk page (or more than one talk page). If you will recall, because of Dr. Cohen, this was a contentious subject at the time. Hayford Peirce 18:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh I see, sorry for the confusion. Your original link went to an edit page for me. I actually don't remember any of this discussion, my mind must have been on other things, even though I participated. Chris Day 18:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's confusing because I think we had *two* ongoing discussions, one (or more) in the talk pages, and another in the Forum. I think I can say without fear of contradictions, however, that any *new* discussion will probably bring up the same arguments. I think that what I *may* have said at the time, in one place or another, was that it didn't so much matter as to *which* system we chose, but that we should only have one, to prevent confusion and acrimony. Which, of course, has again arisen. Hayford Peirce 18:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Unifying concepts
It's...it's...(Monty Python) the Soup [threading] Nazi (extended Seinfeld). Howard C. Berkowitz 18:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Replace template in Approved article
Hayford, would you mind changing the following, at the beginning of Tux?

Currently



Please change to

Thanks, Caesar Schinas 06:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Caesar Schinas 16:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Monster crisps
Yes, Pringles, how I used to love them, but a health scare forced me to give them up about a decade ago - nice article in the NYT. We have the odd situation wherein there are separate articles on the very similar chips/chipped potatoes and fries, but none on crisps/potato chips. That sent me back to the language articles, but I don't know that I could start a new one on such a scientific subject; I could essay an opening definition, perhaps, after dinner. Crisps are potato-based snacks found in English pubs, hmm... Ro Thorpe 18:15, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I gotta say that Pringles actually taste pretty good, particularly the sour cream-chives one, even though they're all frankenfood monsters grown in a vat.... As you say, I was surprised there was no article. There were a couple of Dereks here a couple of years ago who did some stuff, then vanished, I thought that one of them had done it.... Hayford Peirce 19:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Please weigh in on this with your comments
Hayford, please look at my comments here on the forums. Milton Beychok 04:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ketoconazole
Thanks for the approval work Hayford. David E. Volk 12:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Asneira
is a nice Portuguese word for what I did yesterday, moving a talk page instead of the page itself. And my efforts to undo the mistake have only made matters worse: Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch). But I'm sure Officer Peirce can help. Ro Thorpe 13:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What exactly are you trying to do? Should the article be at Bruch Violin Concerto Number 1 and the talk page at Talk:Bruch Violin Concerto Number 1, or the article at Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch) and the talk page at Talk:Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch), or what? Caesar Schinas 14:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The article should be at Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch) & the talk at Talk:Violin Concerto No. 1 (Bruch). Ro Thorpe 14:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Is that OK now? Caesar Schinas 15:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

ToApprove articles
Hayford, I've been in contact by email with Robert Badget about those articles. I'll let you know when everything is straightened out. --Joe (04:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)) Approvals Manager


 * Should be all straightened out now. Both are due for approval on July 1st. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 16:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I revised CZ:Article of the Week. Provided a place for anyone to simply make nominations. Then the program Administrators will do the transclusions.
I just revised the CZ:Article of the Week to provide a place (and instructions) for any CZ author or editor to simply add the names of new nominees.

I did NOT make any revisions to the transcluded versions of the articles that were added by Daniel Mietchen, Caesar Chinas or myself. All I did was provide a new section where anyone can simply add new nominees without having to transclude them.

I also reworded some section headers (and relocated one section) to make clear that Administrators of the "Article of the Week" initiative would do the transclusions.

I did that because I felt many authors and editors would be reluctant to make nominations if they had to do the transclusion themselves.

I asked Caesar Chinas to review my revision. After he does, I will also revise CZ:New Draft of the Week similarly. Milton Beychok 23:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

approvals
Thanks for taking care of folk saint. Did you notice that Randomized controlled trial and Evidence-based medicine are both scheduled to be re-approved today too? --Joe (Approvals Manager) 21:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I did those two first, for practice. They're actually easier to do than the real Approval. So you can remove them, or move them around, or renumber, or whatever needs to be done.


 * Huh. It must have taken longer for the cache to clear or something.  When I left the message above, it looked like they were still awaiting a constable.  They look fine now, though.  I'll post a note on the approvals announcement page. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 22:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh. By the way, Roger found a typo in the lead paragraph of folk saint. Could you fix it on the approved version?  Thanks much. --Joe Quick 21:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure. Hayford Peirce 21:41, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Constable issue
Hayford, you are a constable: Do you think this is a case where an approved article should be changed? See User_talk:Jitse_Niesen Peter Schmitt 22:27, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Dutch article
Hayford, can you please delete Kroese brands & behaviour because (1) it is an advertisement (2) it is straight from the Dutch WP (placed there by user:MarkBoukes and it is about to be deleted) and (3) it is in Dutch. Thank you. --Paul Wormer 11:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Wanted: comma
Hi, Hayford. Someone has edited the 'This is a draft article' thingy, and, well, it looks a tad dummm... But I don't know how to put in the comma, perhaps you can. Ro Thorpe 18:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Gimme a klew, myte, as to where this thingee might be! Hayford Peirce 18:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, at It Won't Get You Anywhere, for example. This is a draft article..., the panel that appears at the top of all draughty articles. It looks as if someone has rewritten it, because I don't think it used to be in bold, but neglected to put a comma after 'cited'. Ro Thorpe 18:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah. There's a long discussion going on about it in the Forum. I've rewritten it as follows: "This is a draft article, under development and not meant to be cited, but you can help improve it. These unapproved articles are subject to a disclaimer." If you agree that this is what it should be, lemme know and I'll tell the Forum chappies -- Lord knows what they're doing and where.... Hayford Peirce 18:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Thanks! Discussion about it?!? Ro Thorpe 19:00, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You gotta keep up wid de times, myte! http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2771.30/topicseen.html Hayford Peirce 19:17, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

It's fixed now. And thanks for the mention! Ro Thorpe 20:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Idly wonders if a "missing period" would bring up as much attention in BE. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, please look at first sentence of Chemical elements
Hayford, would you please look at first sentence of Chemical elements purely from the viewpoint of grammar and use of the English language? Then let us have your opinion here on the article's Talk page? Thanks, Milton Beychok 04:31, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Reply to edit summary
"there's no article about the Pacific Theater?!"

Lol. Not if you or Howard haven't made it. Apparently there's nothing on D-Day either.Drew R. Smith 04:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I haven't quite decided whether to do a complete rewrite of World War II, Pacific, but I have done a lot. Technically, there was no single formal Pacific Theater. At a minimum, there was Pacific Ocean and Pacific Ocean Areas under Nimitz, Southwest Pacific Area under MacArthur, and China-Burma-India, which then split into China under Stilwell and Southeast Asia under Mountbatten, with Wavell in India. XX and XXI Bomber commands, operating against Japan, reported direct to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.


 * For D-Day, see Battle of Normandy, and other associated articles. I need to get the BOLERO-SLEDGEHAMMER-ROUNDUP vs. OVERLORD-NEPTUNE in a more coherent place. Technically, any invasion day is D-day, at H-Hour and M-Minute. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Wordnik dotcom
Thanks, it's great. And I also like typing in names of places & looking at the pictures (e.g. Westerham). Ro Thorpe 14:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

leftover Eduzendium article
Hayford, it seems to me that Sympatric speciation can go.--Paul Wormer 11:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You have enemies
Hayford, just for the fun of it, I checked here again. Two guys, who apparently don't like you, wrote comments (at the end of July). For the record: I don't agree with their comments. --Paul Wormer 07:33, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He should take them to court &mdash; tennis court, that is. It's hard to be anon when being hit by balls. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:32, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

science fiction / science-fiction
Please let me know when to use "science fiction" (without a hyphen) and when to use "science-fiction" (with a hyphen). For example, of the two definitions below, which is correct?


 * 1) Alfred Bester: (1913-87) American science fiction writer; wrote The Demolished Man.
 * 2) Alfred Bester: (1913-87) American science-fiction writer; wrote The Demolished Man.

I will be posting a working list of sf writers and works in a day or two and would like to begin working on the definitions.

James F. Perry 16:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's with a hyphen when you use the phrase to modify or describe someone or something. Such as "Alfred Bester was an American science-fiction writer who wrote science fiction of the very highest quality." This is called a "compound modifier" and is ignored by some people but actually is correct. See the Wikipedia article about them, with the science-fiction example that I furnished. Cheers! Hayford Peirce 17:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Please note my request for Speedy deletion
Hayford, please note my request that Heat Recovery Steam Generator by speedily deleted for the reasons stated in the template. Milton Beychok 07:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Someone put in a whole bunch of other articles to delete that I don't understand so I left them alone. Yours must have been among them and I didn't bother to look at it. Let me know personally if you have any more to delete so that I'll be sure to do it. PS -- you might take a look at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests and tell me what's going on with these if you can figure it out. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 17:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This seems to be caused by Daniel's Related Articles bot. I left him a note about it. Peter Schmitt 19:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

What is with this article?
Toxoplasma gondii* --Paul Wormer 15:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It was apparently a misplaced Eduzendium article. I found the original one at Toxoplasma gondii and either deleted or restored the other one. In any case, I think it's gone, and the real one is there. You can check again and let me know if the bad one is still wandering around somewhere. Hayford Peirce 17:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

and with this one?
Hominin intelligence --Paul Wormer 15:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Apparently an article that never got written. I've deleted it. Hayford Peirce 17:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * /Definition and /Related Articles still exist. Peter Schmitt 17:54, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Please point me to them and I'll zap 'em. Some of these things are relatively arcane for a poor dumb Kop like me. Hayford Peirce 18:00, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * They already show the speedydelete template. By the way, I think that -- to assist cops -- deleting tools should offer to choose from the complete cluster. Don't they? Peter Schmitt 19:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Okie, they're now gone. Thanks. I didn't see them there because there are a lot of other "related" delete requests that I don't know what to do about, or where they came from. So I'm leaving them alone. Yes, you would *think* that the deleting tools would delete the entire cluster. Sometimes they do, I think. But there's no on-off switch that I know of that the worthy constable can click.... Hayford Peirce 19:32, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you send me a screenshot of the list of related articles up for deletion? Peter suspects that the related article bot may have something to do with it, and even though I strongly doubt that, it is perhaps better to have a closer look. --Daniel Mietchen 19:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Can't you just go here? http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests If not, I'll send you a screen shot.... Hayford Peirce 19:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, been there, and it's mysterious to me too. None of those that I checked did have the speedy template or deletion category but they seem to have been created when Caesar was testing the bot. I will try to fix them manually and get back to you if this fails. --Daniel Mietchen 20:06, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed them. --Daniel Mietchen 20:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

(Oops -- I linked the wrong section. Should be .) Did you notice that Category:Speedy delete is listed (below the edit window) when you edit the page? Peter Schmitt 20:12, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, hadn't seen that, but now they're off the list. --Daniel Mietchen 20:34, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't always want to use the delete template, because I'm not always sure that the article ought to go. I then prefer the constable to have a fresh look.--Paul Wormer 06:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Kamehameha I
Thank you Hayford your help. I usually wait until I'm done with the article to add the subpages, however if it is common practice to add it even if the article isn't done, I'll start doing so. I also agree that in the current state the article looks best with the TOC on the right, however I am planning on adding at least a small infobox and some photos/paintings, so I may have to move that around a bit. Either down, or back to the left side.Drew R. Smith 09:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Plato, Socrates, Aristotle
I would not consider them for inclusion in the Lit WG core articles listing. My reasoning is that an article on each of these would go with the Philosophy WG as the primary WG. So I would only list those authors whose primary CZ workgroup would be literature. Anyway, that is my reasoning. James F. Perry 19:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with you, almost certainly. I was more wondering than anything else.... Hayford Peirce 20:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

" I don't think that TOC are ever put on the LEFT side -- pictures are. can you switch the TOC and the info box? thanks"
Actually, left side TOC's are pretty much the norm. Go through a bunch of random pages using the random page link, and the only ones with a right side TOC are your articles. Every other article, including one of the two mainpage articles, uses a left side TOC.

That being said, I'm not against a right side TOC. I think it should be up to the author to determine what looks best. In my opinion, a left side TOC looks best with the Kamehameha article.Drew R. Smith 09:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll be darned! I just did ten random pages (out of about 20 in order to get ten with TOCs) and was amazed to see that there were nine LEFT and only one RIGHT. I guess that I and my friends just always used Right, so I assumed that this was the natural way. Left is probably the Default setting, I would say. Geez, I learn something every day! Hayford Peirce 17:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As my dad always told me, "if you didn't learn something new today, why'd you get out of bed?". Anyway, I hope I didn't come across in a negative manner. Getting a point across without sounding negative is so difficult over the internet.


 * In this particular case though, you were alot closer to being right than if you had made that comment about one of the other artices that have the TOC on the left. What I mean by that, is that I don't particularly like the TOC on either side for Kamehameha I. Honestly, it looks best below the infobox, but that seems to defeat the purpose of having it. Any ideas?Drew R. Smith 03:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No, no, you weren't negative at all. I think the placement of the TOC box is purely subject and how it looks is very dependent on the browser, its settings, and the size of the monitor. It will vary from person to person. All that I *really* object to is large, or even small, areas of white space, which can usually be eliminated by putting the TOC at the top of the screen.


 * I agree completely, however in the case of this particular article, it still doesn't look good even with the white space eliminated. As I said before, it looks best below the infobox, but I haven't kept it there because that defeats the purpose of having a TOC.Drew R. Smith 01:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

typo correction on an approved article
Hi Hayford, Could you make the typo correction Matt asked about on the approvals manager talk page? He was involved as an approving editor for the article, so it's best for another constable to take care of it. Thanks much. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 16:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)