Talk:Satanic ritual abuse

"Some observers"
It really isn't very helpful to add two consecutive footnotes to "some observers", with only references to apparently hard-copy books from non-academic sources, to a verifiable online press release. The additional citations, with no description of the authors or their credentials, does not add information or substantiation to the press release.

At the very least, explain who these people may be, and why they are qualified as independent supporters of the online press release, accusing Wikipedia of pedophilia. I had not explicitly said the press release was from Neil Brick's organization, to avoid the appearance of "persecution". Nevertheless, is there now a conflict of interest/Topic Informant situation here when the author of a press release, without adding his connection, starts adding sources, not easily verifiable, to support his position? Howard C. Berkowitz 19:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The press release was not added by me. I have no problem if it is deleted. Neil Brick 19:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, but I do have a problem of the press release being deleted. It is a public document by a contributor to the topic, which indicates a personal position on the subject. If I write an article on some subject, and I have presented, in public, an opinion on that subject, I believe it only fair that any Citizen be free to cite that information in that article.Howard C. Berkowitz 20:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The sources are adequately described and verifiable. I can find journal articles to replace them. The sources in my edit were meant to verify "is of very serious concern to some observers" and not to verify the newly added part of the sentence to where they were moved.Neil Brick 02:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Adequately described? There is no description at all. The place to which they were moved was entirely accurate: they were not writing in peer-reviewed publications, books from well-known publisher, or even sources verifiable online. If, incidentally, either are so definitive, why must there be two in a row? You will note that I use one citation for each point; if it made a better argument, I could be repetitive and redundant again.


 * CZ: Neutrality Policy is going to show, at least, that there are diametrically opposed views. In keeping with neutrality policy, the mainstream view is going to get relatively more emphasis. Again, I suggest you read homeopathy and look at how a minority position is described accurately. Incidentally, it might be logical to define Satan and Satanism first, assuming that there is a correlation between them and the ritual abuse theory. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I have attempt to clarify the text, separating the sections out. Also, most of the sources were skeptical ones, so I attempted to add some balance by adding journal articles and other sources (neutrality). I was unable to find any evidence that IPT was peer reviewed. Robinson's page is definitely not peer reviewed. BTW, I did not write the press release.Neil Brick 21:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The authoritative Victor publication was Sociological Perspectives (University of California Press), 41(3): 541-565 (1998). An academic Citizen was able to provide the PDF from JSTOR, which I am now reading and trying to find the relationship of the IPT piece, which looks like a precursor. I'm certainly willing to try to find the exact provenance of the IPT piece; as I scan through the 1998 article, there is very similar text that I'm willing to substitute, with the caveat that it's more lengthy.


 * As far as the press release, I am perfectly willing to hear that someone else wrote it. Nevertheless, it appears on the S.M.A.R.T. site, where the "Debating The Non-Believers: Getting equal time for Survivors’ Views" page [] states "Neil Brick is a survivor of alleged Masonic Ritual Abuse and MK-ULTRA. He is the editor of S.M.A.R.T. - A Ritual Abuse Newsletter. He has published many articles on ritual abuse"


 * There seems to be no disclaimer of the press release being an individual opinion, and the release is from S.M.A.R.T. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I would disagree with making the quote "more lengthy." It is already fairly long. It would be better to have a peer reviewed source in its place.


 * I believe that any Citizen should be able to support their opinion on topics in Citizendium with appropriate sourcing, whether they have made their opinion public or not. My sources were good ones and now they are even better. If one looks at the style of writing of the press release, it is clearly different from mine here.Neil Brick 03:18, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * All right. For the record, the IPT citation, which I am replacing, is [

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume3/j3_3_1.htm]. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Questionable reference; problem of conflating sadism and Satanism
This article is titled "Satanic ritual abuse", so it would seem the I have moved the two references out of the text, as they are example of a continuing problem in which terms such as "sadism", "ritual abuse" and "Satanism" seem to be used interchangeably. The only way we will achieve any precision is to be precise with terminology. Conflating various undefined terms is no way to be precise.


 * "Ritual Abuse Frequently Asked Questions"  defines ritual abuse as "generally used to mean prolonged, extreme, sadistic abuse, especially of children, within a group setting. The group's ideology is used to justify the abuse, and abuse is used to teach the group's ideology. The activities are kept secret from society at large, as they violate norms and laws."

The article, however, is not entitled "ritual abuse".


 * Goodwin, G. (1991). "Sadistic abuse: definition, recognition, and treatment." Dissociation 6 (2/3): 181-187. only mentions "Satan" in one table and one footnote.

The title term is "sadistic abuse", not Satanic abuse, so it hardly is authoritative on Satanism ritual abuse. It's just fine in an article on sadistic abuse.

Howard C. Berkowitz 03:50, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Along similar lines, I've been wondering about the following sentence in the first paragraph: "The same source refers to it as synonymous for cult related abuse, ritual abuse, ritualized abuse, sadistic ritual abuse and organized sadistic abuse[1]" This does not sound right, surely there is non-satanic versions of ritual abuse? If so, Satanic riual abuse cannot be synonymous with ritual abuse.  Similarly, surely there are cults that are not satanists? Chris Day 04:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Now I see that the second paragraph addresses this. So who are the authors of this definitive source, how could they be sloppy with terminology this way? Is it a reliable source? Or is the terminology really this garbbled in the field? Chris Day 04:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the terminology is really this garbled. In a way, that reflects contemporary usage, lower-case "satanic" is widely used as a deprecatory adjective. While I understand that the etymology of Satan is from the Hebrew for "adversary", it is also my understanding of a personified Satan is more of a medieval Christian idea. Nevertheless, when jihadists refer to the Great Satan or Lesser Satan, they are not referring to a red being with a forked tail.


 * Nevertheless, I see no alternative, in encyclopedic writing, to insist on using "Satanic" precisely. While abuse is culturally defined, with global attempts such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there are things, such as female genital mutilation, which are widely considered abusive &mdash; but use no Satanic symbolism or belief system. While I am not taking any position on religious male circumcision in Judaism or Islam, those are clearly ritual that in no way invokes Satan. If this sort of ritual is abuse, it's ritual abuse, but not Satanic ritual abuse.


 * To make it even more complex, look at recent Christian exorcisms where a child died of injuries from "beating out the Devil." The persons performing those rituals would, I have no fear of suggesting, vehemently deny they are Satanic rituals &mdash; yet they intimately involve a belief system. Are they Satanic rituals? In the straightforward usage, I would say no.


 * As far as "cult ritual abuse", we first have to have an accepted definition of "cult," not an easy task. Did the Romans regard a rabbi and twelve friends a "cult"? It was Clemenceau, I believe, that called a language a "dialect with an army." Personally, in this area, I'd focus more on "ritual" and avoid the slippery term "cult." By doing so, ritual abuse could then include activities that may be associated with mainstream cultures, but are considered abusive by outside observers. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Religion, Law or Anthropology Editor Assistance Requested
I request a ruling that an article dealing with "Satanic ritual abuse" certainly can use sources that specifically address Satanic belief systems or symbols, but that the term is not synonymous with generic ritual abuse. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:06, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As has been discussed above, the terms are not well defined by some in the literature and definitions vary. And Satanic ritual abuse (SRA) has been considered a subset of ritual abuse (RA) itself by some, so what may apply to RA may apply to SRA and vice versa. So I believe that there should be no hard set rule on this, but decided on a case by case basis, determined by the source's writing and editors on the talk page.Neil Brick 17:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I absolutely, totally disagree. This is an encyclopedia. It is intended to be precise. In many articles, poorly defined yet commonly used terms are made specific and used consistently.


 * The word "satanic" is used both in lower-case and upper-case forms in English. Allowing any form of abuse to be described as "satanic" is saying no more, and no less, than "bad! evil!". Precisely because there are two English usages, we should be precise whenever using it in CZ. Using the generic, epithet form is vague, emotional, and has no place in article titles or in definitions. When the literature is vague, it needs to be clarified. When cited articles are titled "sadistic ritual abuse" and make only a passing reference to Satanism, they are appropriate references for articles on sadistic ritual abuse.


 * For example, the Horned God is sometimes evoked, by Wiccans, as the "defender against rape", hardly what one would associate with ritual abuse. Yet because "the devil has horns", neopagans may find themselves labeled "satanist".Howard C. Berkowitz 18:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * An encyclopedia should represent the research as accurately as possible. To make arbitrary decisions on the field of SRA and how it is defined would be inaccurately representing the field. We should state that the term SRA is defined in different ways by different sources. And decide on a case by case basis if needed when a source may fit the page. Neil Brick 02:34, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * SRA, in the context of this article, is completely ambiguous. I have asked that the abbreviation not be used, because it appears to mean whatever one wants it to mean. Spell out the term.


 * One with experience with CZ might note that one of its distinctive qualities is careful original synthesis; we are not a simple mirror of secondary sources. Indeed, when we have succeeded in Approving a controversial subject, synthesis was an important part. That synthesis also pointed out that homeopathy is not accepted by the majority view in healthcare. In that case, however, it was possible to define, to the satisfaction of homeopathic experts, the meaning of homeopathy.


 * If a term has no accepted meaning, then an article about it is, to my view, unmaintainable. One might, then, suggest this article should be deleted. Alas, if that were the case, other articles whose fundamental premise is the existence of "satanic ritual abuse", whatever that may be, would then, in turn, become unmaintainable. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

(undent)There are many concepts that may have different definitions. If a dictionary deleted all of the words with more than one definition, then it would not be a good source of information. One can possibly synthesis a definition from various sources on the topic, but this synthesis should not allow for the exclusion of valid sources on the topic, and should not necessarily create the exclusion of articles on ritual abuse that also mention satanic ritual abuse.Neil Brick 03:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Assorted questions
"Gould"? "Young"? "Victor"? These are used without first names, and also without the sources in which the quotations appear, which makes this read like notes for an article, as opposed to a live article. Who cares what these different people say? Context must be provided so we can understand why we should care.

The Gould quote does not mention Satanic ritual abuse.

"One article has termed the Wikipedia article on the subject a promotion of pedophilia"--who cares either about what "one article" says, or about the Wikipedia article? This is taken completely out of context.

Meanwhile, virtually nothing is said here about what Satanic ritual abuse is alleged to be.

Please make an effort to construct a narrative, as opposed to collecting what appear to be quotations that might be used in the writing of a later draft. --Larry Sanger 04:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. It appears that some of my transition statements to add context for the sources are being deleted and replaced by quotes.Neil Brick 04:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's a science style, it's pretty common to cite with only last names in the text. Chris Day 04:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, Chris, that was the reason I used the names; it's quite common practice in engineering and science publication.


 * When the transition statement draws conclusions not supported by the source reference, such as claiming that a paper supports Satanic abuse when it is about ritual or sadistic abuse, mentioning Satanism only in passing, yes, I believe it is important to point that out. Further, when significant quotes worthy of counterargument or elucidation are relegated to footnotes, good editing means they need to move to a more prominent place.


 * Larry, there were a great many redlinks to satanic ritual abuse, which made me decide that I should make a best attempt to add content about it. I would be delighted to see an narrative on Satanic ritual abuse, but I really can't find any specifics that seem authoritative. It is possible to find writings by self-identified Satanists such as Anton Levey, but that do not seem to provide a theological basis for child abuse.


 * Now, I'm quite willing to agree that some individuals and groups may use Satanic symbolism in various acts &mdash; one need only look as far as counterculture teenagers. The existence of large-scale groups that abuse great numbers of people in a serious way, however, calls for a more serious standard of evidence.


 * I have, however, seen a good number of papers, academic and official, questioning its existence. Articles such as Hell Minus One assert its existence, but neutrality would seem to require noting the amount of counterarguments &mdash; the majority position is that it doesn't exist.

(undent) The transition statements did not draw conclusions not supported by the sources. Both papers also discussed Satanic Ritual Abuse and were relevant as sources. Some articles have questioned its existence and others have stated otherwise. Both need to be in the article. Neil Brick 04:59, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The transitional statements tended to conflate several kinds of abuse discussion, and, if Satanism were briefly mentioned in a paper, that isn't enough to say it's a source that describes or supports the existence of specifically Satanist ritual abuse. Gould's paper, for example, is titled "Denying Ritual Abuse of Children". If this article were entitled ritual abuse, it would be reasonable to cite, especially her statement "Unfortunately, these statistics tell us little about the actual prevalence of child ritual abuse. Much more telling are the data these researchers have collected regarding the effects of ritual abuse on child victims. "


 * In no way do I deny there are many reports of abuse, nor that child abuse is a real problem. "Prevalence" is an epidemiological term that is normally used to refer to objectively validated observations. A worthwhile analogy here might be that reports are to symptoms as prevalence is to sign (medical). Subjective reports are important, but they may not be literally accurate.


 * We need Editor involvement here, including someone to read these sources that Mr. Brick and I seem to interpret quite differently. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:14, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Excessive quote
I pared down a quote from Victor because it was way too long and instead of this being discussed on the talk page it was simply restored to the page as a revert. I am moving the entire quote to the talk page for discussion, so we can all agree on an appropriate length.

Victor observed "The rapid rise and decline of SRA accusations gives evidence to the volatility of a moral panic. Claims about ritual child abuse by satanic cults began to appear rather suddenly. The oldest known satanic cult "survivor" account was published in 1980 in the book, Michelle Remembers. SRA testimonials, accusations and rumors spread rapidly thereafter in the United States during the early 1980s and then declined rapidly during the early 1990s."

Victor states: So far, no law enforcement agency or research study has found the kind of physical evidence needed to support accounts of SRA. No one has turned up written or electronic communications, bank account records, meetings in process, members who can identify leaders, or any of the vast number of bodies of people supposed murdered by satanic cults. Official government reports from several countries could find no such evidence to support claims about SRA.

The government reports cited by Victor were from the:
 * Department of Health of the United Kingdom
 * Netherlands Ministry of Justice
 * Behavioral Science Unit of the FBI
 * Michigan State Police
 * Virginia State Crime Commission Task Force
 * Washington state (Parr 1996).

"The only social phenomena that exists which bares any resemblance to SRA claims are teenage delinquents and mentally disordered killers who call themselves 'satanists'. However, these deviants do not constitute an organization, a criminal network or a religious cult."Neil Brick 04:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I object, strenuously. Previously, Mr. Brick objected because the Victor material had referred to studies needing their own citations. Very deliberately, I removed the Victor text about the countries involved, and substituted a bulleted list of countries with citations &mdash; I discovered this move when I was coming back with more data. When possible, I will try to obtain interlibrary loan copies of the information not online.


 * The blockquote following the bulleted list is extremely important, as it offers an explanation for certain behavior alleged to be Satanic. Not less important are the analysis of Satanic ritual as a moral panic, discussed in a separate article, and in his analysis, supported by the bulleted list, that there is little objective evidence to the prevalence of "SRA" as opposed to reporting of SRA.


 * In other words, I cut back an earlier, lengthier quote to something that I consider entirely appropriate. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe it is way too long for one source and one person's opinion on the topic. The whole section could easily be pared down to two or three lines. This would make the article more easily readable and fairer in terms of weight.


 * It could be pared down to this - Victor believes that the rapid rise and fall of SRA claims gives evidence to the theory that these claims were part of a moral panic. He believes that "no law enforcement agency or research study has found the kind of physical evidence needed to support accounts of SRA." He states that official government reports did not find "such evidence to support claims about SRA."Neil Brick 17:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If that sort of paring is reasonable, than the vague Gould reference to Satanist ritual abuse should go completely. SRA, precisely because it cannot be disambiguated as sadistic, satanist, sexual, or Satanist, should be banned from the article.


 * I emphatically disagree with this paring, which is quite fair in weight: the mainstream does not believe Satanic ritual abuse is a widespread or even real phenomenon, as distinct from the random use of symbols that may be associated with Satanism. Howard C. Berkowitz 18:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The Gould reference should stay because it does discuss the connection between ritual abuse (RA) and SRA "ritual abuse is certainly an integral part of some kinds of Satanism." And SRA is a subset of RA, so the research overlaps.  Another problem is that research on RA includes cases of SRA. So the study is appropriate.


 * The paring down covers most of the points of the quote more succinctly. It is less verbose and easier to read. It covers most of the points of the quote well. Encyclopedia do not go on and on about one person's research in an article on a certain topic. They cover the salient points and then move on. Neil Brick 02:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You may wish to read the article on Newspeak. What, again, is SRA and RA? Science Research Associates and Resident Associate? Sorry, I refuse to speak in terms of things that have not been defined. I don't know what RA is -- Radium? -- so I can't say if SRA is a subset. Please use complete phrases, not abbreviations you assume others accept. Please define ritual abuse in an article, not books that dance around it. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Encyclopedia do not go on and on about one person's research in an article on a certain topic." Perhaps such as Hell Minus One? Howard C. Berkowitz 02:59, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

(undent) The page you describe above is about the book, so obviously it would be about one topic, the book. The books I cited (that were deleted) have sections on ritual abuse and do not "dance around it."Neil Brick 03:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Deleted source
A source of mine was deleted with the comment it would be moved to talk. I will assume on good faith that it was an accident that it was not moved to this page.

There are lists on the Internet of convictions and statements in criminal cases of Satanic ritual abuse occurrences. [Believe the children (1997). “Conviction List: Ritual Child Abuse”. http://www.ra-info.org/resources/ra_cases.shtml] [The Satanism and Ritual Abuse Archive contains 92 cases as of February 12, 2008. http://www.endritualabuse.org/ritualabusearchive.htm] tags removed for readability.

These sites contain cases that describe convictions and allegation of satanic ritual abuse cases. I believe they should be added to the article. Neil Brick 03:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Constable comment
Are you guys actually getting anywhere, or is it time to bring in an outside perspective? Has anyone contacted an editor for this article for their input? If so, are you ready for me to call in the EIC? D. Matt Innis 03:03, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, I would agree to this. IMO, we need someone with a neutral view on the topic.Neil Brick 03:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Constable action taken
I have locked this article temporarily until some editorial input can be obtained. The talk page will remain useable, but take extra care to observe professional behavior during this brief interruption. I will be looking to bring in some dispute resolution to this page. Consider taking some time for a much needed coffee break. D. Matt Innis 03:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible Compromises
Matt has asked me, as a religion editor, to take a look at the article. This is a subject about which I know nothing and since many of the above comments seem to refer to text in earlier drafts that is no longer in the article, I was not able to follow the entire discussion. But I will be happy to be educated about it and perhaps can lend some sort of hand in clarifying how to proceed.

1. Structure of the article. Currently there is a definition at the beginning and a series of quotations about Satanic ritual abuse, mostly addressing the subject indirectly. There is also a dispute whether the phenomenon is real or not. Perhaps it would be best to structure the article with three sections: (1) definition; (2) evidence in favor of the existence of the phenomenon; (3) evidence against the existence (or widespread existence) of the phenomenon. The order of the last two sections is important and I do not know which order is better. Generally, whichever section goes last gets the last word and therefore is the overall judgment of the article writer. If the article's thesis is "Satanic Ritual Abuse is an alleged phenomenon, but the evidence for its widespread existence is slight" I would put the sections in the order I listed. It is important to make it clear whether the entire phenomenon is being denied, or whether its widespread nature is being denied. I admit it is hard to define "widespread" but I think that has to be considered a professional judgment. From what I have seen in the article and subsequent discussion, I would not be inclined to call the phenomenon "widespread," but I would not deny absolutely its existence.

2. Definition. Getting the definition right is the key. The current definition is "the extreme and sadistic sexual, psychological or physical assault on another perpetuated by one or more Satanists in a specific ritual." Could one drop the "and sadistic" or even "the extreme and sadistic"? Presumably "abuse" includes the word "extreme" in it already. The placement of "sadistic" suggests one can have sadistic psychological abuse, which I suppose is possible. Is "sadistic" somehow included in "extreme . . sexual" abuse or even "sexual. . . abuse"? I have not thought about these terms in detail before; I don't know. I'd consider anything "sadistic" to be "extreme."

3. Use of "SRA." Once we have the definition clear, "SRA" simply stands for the definition, so I have no problem using the abbreviation, as long as each use consciously has the definition in mind.

4. Use of Gould, Young, etc.: It is true that professional articles in a particular field just use someone's last name. The reader, as a professional, is expected to know who the person is. But Citizendium is designed to appeal to a general audience and thus the reader needs more clues. I would include not only the first name, but a very short identifier: "Charles Gould, an anthropologist. . ." (I have no idea who "C Gould" is, so this is an example). I think you would agree that "C Gould, an anthropologist" has a very different feel than "C. Gould, a criminologist" and colors how the text is read. But this is legitimate if the identifier is chosen in as neutral a fashion as possible.

5. References. The references section is a great place to let our collective hair down and provide a rich set of notes, both descriptive ones to clarify and amplify the article and citations to other opinions. This is not a book where we are concerned about how many trees we kill. We won't bust the hard disk; it's big enough. If a source is a press release, if you want to include it because it adds valuable content not available elsewhere, make the nature of the source clear. (If, on the other hand, there's a peer reviewed source, start with that; but even then the reference could also include "in addition, similar points are covered in a press release here" and include a link.)

6. Overall tone. I am going out on a limb here, as I do not have a lot of experience as an editor of articles. Maybe Matt can correct me. I am inclined to think that Citizendium exists to get articles by experts that reflect the professional judgment of the experts. It is difficult to achieve that by committee. Therefore, whoever drafted the first version of the article, in my opinion, needs to have a dominant (but not exclusive) voice in the article's content, unless the initial author was not an expert in the subject or proved to have a highly idiosyncratic view about the topic. An article of this sort calls for both neutrality AND a professional judgment; the question of whether Satanic Ritual Abuse exists needs to be explored from both sides, but some sort of judgment is appropriate. Robert Stockman 18:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Robert, thank you for offering to help with the article. I agree with all of your points above. Neil Brick 01:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with your point #2 being critical. In my opinion, the article can work only if the definition is quite precise. The reason that I asked for Religion help is that to me, one can reasonably refer to something as upper-case Satanic if it is specific to a belief system in Satan, that being Satanism. The sadism, extreme, etc., simply confuse the situation.


 * Certainly SRA can be used if it refers to a clear definition, but if SRA has several interpretations of "S", and even further overlaps an even more general "RA", how can we get anywhere?


 * Your point is taken regarding the source names. It is common practice in the science and engineering publications with which I work, but it is agreed those are for specialists. If it can be a requirement that both academic/government researchers are identified by profession and function, it also seems only fair that writers for advocacy groups also be identified.


 * I would welcome context-setting articles on Satan and Satanism, by someone more expert in those topics. Note that there is also a ritual abuse article that is not specific to Satanism, but does consider other belief-system-based abuse. There is, and has been before all this started, a child abuse and a child sexual abuse article that would seem to be the place to discuss things principally motivated by sadism, unless there is a theological link betweeen Satanism and sadism.


 * Might I request a ruling, from you as a Religion Editor, that this article needs to be restricted to a definition that clearly links to Satan? With that constraint, then the literature can be addressed to survey what evidence exists for there being, or not being, a significant phenomenon of now-specific Satanic ritual abuse? Howard C. Berkowitz 21:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * By "Satan," Howard, I assume you mean a definition relating to Satanism? I would rather start by determining what definition people want to use. Can we use something like "sexual, psychological or physical assault on another perpetuated by one or more Satanists in a specific ritual." This doesn't include "extreme" or "sadistic" because "assault" seems to embody either one or both adjectives. Presumably an assault is, by definition, an abuse.


 * What do you think of the idea of then having two sections where the term's validity is discussed, pro and con? Is there a better structure we can come up with to make an article that is clear?


 * If I may, I want to thank the people who are debating this article for laying out the issues. That's a big step toward coming up with something that works.
 * Robert Stockman 22:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * By Satan, I was using the term for the supernatural being or concept, the etymology, I believe, is from the Hebrew for "adversary". Again not being an expert in the subject, my further understanding is that the usage is of medieval Christian origin; I hesitate to get (here at least) into the nuances of Lucifer, Satan, "the Devil", etc. There certainly were allegations of Satan worship in the past, and there are symbols and usages associated with it. We do have the modern Church of Satan formed by Anton Szandor LaVey, complete with what I completely agree is an upper-case Satanic website,. I would be hesitant to use your suggested language of "sexual, psychological or physical assault on another perpetuated by one or more Satanists in a specific ritual" unless we first have a specific definition of Satanism; I would also like to discuss if the definition would mean someone with a religious belief system in Satanism or if symbols alone qualify. Personally, I prefer it be restricted to the former. The swastika was a symbol in Native American and South Asian traditions long before Adolf Hitler was conceived; it is not reasonable to assume anything with a swastika is Nazi, any more than a counterculture music group making good money by shocking with their use of Satan-related symbols necessarily believe in Satanism.


 * Some symbols, such as the black mass, have classically been associated with Satanist ritual, although variants do appear in other occult traditions focused on what they consider to be adversarial to at least Abrahamic concepts of good (e.g., Aleister Crowley, who rather boldly declared himself the "wickedest man on earth"). Unfortunately, the pentagram is a perfectly acceptable symbol to many neopagan groups that are horrified by the thought of honoring evil. In like manner, a representation of "the devil" also corresponds to various Horned Gods (e.g., the sun spirit in many Wiccan traditions, Pan in the Greek pantheon, etc.) who tend to be male archetypes not at all considered evil (see, for example, Jung's Man and His Symbols).


 * I realize I'm defining Satan and Satanism here, which really should be articles of their own. To try to focus on the subject of this article, I would suggest, minimally, that the topic be constrained to be abuse that involves at least symbols specifically attributed to Satan, if not a formal Satanist belief system. This excludes generic sexual, sadistic, etc., abuse, and indeed religiously based ritual abuse that does not use this symbolism. To offer a suggested clarification of ritual abuse, which is culturally specific, female genital mutilation is fairly widely accepted, at the international level, as abusive. It is very real, it is traditional in some societies, but it is not Satanic. If the people doing it, whom I personally consider abusers, seek no personal sexual gratification, it is not sadistic. Let me not get too far afield.


 * Once the definition is limited to specifically involving symbols of, or belief in, Satan, it is then possible to get into alternative views of whether Satan-based abuse, not necessarily of children but necessarily of nonconsensual victims, exists. The literature I have reviewed suggests there are at least three possible categories:


 * Nonconsensual abuse by people who perform the acts as part of a belief system in Satan.
 * Nonconsensual abuse who use Satanic symbols as means of inducing fear, but do not actually believe in Satan; they might indeed be gaining sadistic gratification, the symbol-induced fear being part of the means of inflicting psychological as well as physical pain, injury or death
 * No evidence of any systematic use of Satanic ritual, but perhaps individual or small groups that, possibly for delusional reasons, use some symbols without a systematic plan.


 * Could instances of any of these exist? I believe so. The next major issue, however, is the prevalence of these cases, and, as some advocacy groups maintain, if there are large-scale hidden conspiracies for conducting any.


 * There probably will not be any compromise on two positions:
 * One, which I believe represents the majority of social science and criminal investigative positions, there is no substantial evidence of large-scale conspiracy
 * There is a well-hidden systematic conspiracy. I use "conspiracy" not in a pejorative sense, but in the sense of conspiracy (legal).


 * We could make some progress, I believe, if we at least use as precise a definition as possible, not using nonspecific adjectives such as extreme or lower-case satanic. If we establish that there is a strong position such conspiracies do not exist and the alleged cases are questionable, this is a valid criticism to link, for example, to articles on books describing allegations of such abuse. The question also arises is whether stand-alone articles on individual books about Satanic book claims make sense, or whether they might more properly be in the bibliography of this article. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I would disagree with the use of references that clearly link to only satanism, because SRA is a subset of ritual abuse. Some research that covers ritual abuse also covers SRA. It would be an artificial distinction to state that an article that doesn't discuss SRA in detail not be included in the article. I believe that a choice of references used should be decided on a case by case basis. Neil Brick 01:47, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think we need to spend much time defining "Satan"; I think the popular image will be precise enough. I don't know the history of the idea, but I suspect it is far older than medieval Christianity. In Arabic and Persian, "shaytan" means the same thing. Furthermore, if there are various groups of Satanists, their use of Satan may vary, so precision may not be possible.


 * But defining "Satanism" is worth a sentence or two or three. Don't you agree, Neil? I could see two ways of doing this: (1) sticking with the highly precise and narrow definition of "Satanism" as referring to specific organized groups that self-identify as Satanists; or (2) noting this specific definition and adding that a fuzzier "penumbra" sometimes surrounds the specific definition and includes smaller, non-organized self-identified groups that might broaden out into punk rocker type groups. The latter approach would have the advantage of noting that a fuzzy definition exists in practice and I gather that is true. This would also help classify the literature better, as some seems to include the broader category, rightly or wrongly.


 * Regarding what literature to include, I think that's a case by case situation. If something on ritual abuse has something to say about Satanic ritual abuse, it may be worth including. If it seems to deal with the fuzzier "penumbra" group, that should be stated.


 * Perhaps I should define the terms "umbra" and "penumbra" more clearly. The "umbra" is the dark center of a shadow; it tends to be surrounded by a wider partial shadow, where some of the disk of the sun is blocked and some is shining through. I am using this as an analogy for defining Satanism, which perhaps has a clear core definition (referring to the larger, well-organized, formalized groups) and a fuzzer set of vaguer uses around it. If there is literature about ritual abuse using the "penumbra" definitions, they probably should be included in the article as well, but separated out as using a vaguer definition.


 * Since I have not read any of the literature, I am inferring from the precious discussions. Is this generally correct? Is this a useful way of thinking about the subject?

Robert Stockman 05:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * P.S. On further reflection: I suspect that the notion of a "well organized" Satanic group may be itself hard to define. I bet many groups do not have legal incorporation with bylaws, for example. Many of them may have evolving practices. Many of them probably include ideas that are not strictly "Satanic" such as reincarnation or nature worship. So I wonder whether the umbra and penumbra don't grade together as continual shades of gray.

Robert, I agree that we could define Satanism in a couple of sentences. I also agree with you that a case by situation would work, since there is a great deal of overlap between ritual abuse and SRA in the literature. I think that your ways of looking at it are very useful and something we could possibly apply to the writing of the article.Neil Brick 15:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I am simply not going to address a vague "SRA", or accept the interchangeability of Satanic ritual abuse and ritual abuse. There is a point, in writing an encyclopedia article, that something becomes so gray as to be unmaintainable. The "Satanic", unless as precisely defined as possible, is inflammatory. Numerous law enforcement organizations have been unable to find evidence of what they considered large-scale Satanic practices; having lived in Virginia for many years, if their task force had found evidence, that would have delighted some political constituencies.


 * Indeed, I would be perfectly willing to delete this article, moving relevant material to ritual abuse. Is there any question that nonconsensual female genital mutilation, done to cultural and perhaps theological tradition, is an abuse that is part of a ritual? Is there any question that a child's death due to a beating to "drive out the [Christian] devil is ritual abuse? Why is it useful to use an extremely hard to define additional descriptor to deal with one special case? Would an article on Christian ritual abuse be acceptable or useful?


 * Even non-Satanic ritual abuse is going to be hard to define in some cases. No one is going to argue that a girl grabbed and submitted, screaming, to infibulation is being abused. If I may be permitted a brief and nongraphic painful memory of my own, it was hearing sounds of an attempted an emergency pelvic examination on an infibulated adult, before humanity took over and general anesthesia was given. But what of adolescent that submits to scarification, tooth filing, male circumcision, etc., in a coming of age ritual? Is that consensual, if not submitting would cause immense loss of status? At what age does one give informed consent to mortifications, to the Sun Dance, to self-flagellation? I don't have simple answers, and I think any that literature insists on emphasizing any shocking symbol, rather than the result, must pass a high bar of validation.


 * Ritual abuse is far easier to describe than arguing an unmaintainable Satanic subcase. Of course, if it were agreed that Satanic ritual abuse is about as easy to define as "evil", it might well be that other articles centered around allegations of it might not, themselves, be maintainable or notable. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It encourages CZ neutrality. Howard C. Berkowitz 05:37, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are cases in the literature and legal system of well organized SRA practices, the Hammond, LA case being the most recent one. I am unsure of the idea of combining articles, if done, this would have be done carefully with full editorial input.Neil Brick 15:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you make several important points, Howard.


 * 1. We need to be as precise as we possibly can. I would ask this: should an article try to be more precise than the literature it describes? I don't know the answer to the question. If there is a "subfield" (sub-sub-sub field?) studying Satanic ritual abuse, it is probably best describing the conclusions of the field. Encyclopedia articles certainly can interpret and advance a subject, but their principal purpose is to summarize.


 * Would an article on Christian ritual abuse be acceptable. I agree that it would be considered inflamatory, partly because of the breadth of the term. If Satanism is a legitimate phenomenon in our secular, neutral society then it deserves the same respect as any other religious group or institution. If Satanism does seem to include a certain amount of abuse, the phenomenon is a legitimate one to study (just as "Christian snake charmer ritual abuse" would be; but note this is not generic "Christian" ritual abuse). But that raises the other side of this discussion: the people who are studying Satanic ritual abuse. If most of their work is biased and an attack on Satanism, then an article on "Satanic ritual abuse" needs to at least note that and probably needs to devote substantial space to it.


 * I am not sure that male circumcision is a completely good analogy. It is not a Christian custom in the sense of being in the New Testament or being an ancient Mediterranean Christian custom. It was customary in the US in the twentieth century largely because of public health benefits. I gather it is now shrinking as a customary thing in the US. In the US it is not a religious ritual; it performed in the hospital by a doctor with no clergyperson or parent present, and with no prayers or other rituals. (I am speaking of US Christians here, not Jews.) I do not think circumcision was an African Christian or Indian Christian or a Japanese Christian custom. I agree strongly that "female circumcision" is abuse. It is not scriptural in Christianity or Islam. It is most common in parts of northern and eastern Africa among both Christians and Muslims for, I suppose, local cultural reasons. It does not have medical benefits that the modern medical establishment has accepted and has numerous negative medical impacts medicine has identified. To what extent it is performed in a ritualistic context, I do not know. That would be an important question to consider if one wishes to include it as "ritual abuse."


 * This also raises cultural issues about how to define "abuse." I will give an example. A friend of mine is Lakota and was once describing a sun dance to me, where men pull a small stick through the skin on their chests, tie a cord to it, and dance round and round a pole, pulling on the cord, until the skin breaks or they collapse from exhaustion (and sometimes have mystical experiences). I asked him whether anyone gets hurt and he said "sure, but we have some ambulances standing by"! Religions all call on people to stretch their bodies beyond their usual limits. Most have a fasting ritual of some sort (with exceptions for the infirm, old, and very young). Many include the taking of a mind-altering substance, though often not enough to alter consciousness (wine in the eucharist, for example). Some include night vigils (no sleep all night). None of these are meant to be abusive, but they occasionally will do harm.


 * Robert Stockman 15:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Case by case undesirable
Might we stop and ask what is trying to be accomplished here? Why is the question of case by case decisions being made? Is an encyclopedia to be an index of cases? I see it as an expanded definition and explanation, describing the issues, positions of the major sides, and both careful synthetic writing and and sourced material, the latter identified, in this context, if the author(s) have an identified strong view and also relevant credentials.

Why would individual cases be in question? I don't rule that out, but, in other areas, CZ is very deliberate in citing individual or primary sources. A primary source of a court decision (especially an appellate court) or treaty is appropriate because it formally is a definition, or the basis of one. In Health Sciences, consensus guidelines tend to be preferred to individual studies, unless the individual studies are described, by expert writers and editors, in a careful context. Even in the medical literature, many case reports of Satanic ritual abuse are true in what the patient recounted, but come with disclaimers of no external validation. I did cite, but had removed, a number of studies by national and regional law enforcement/interdisciplinary task forces that sought but did not find strong validation. Howard C. Berkowitz 15:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggested case by case because I am only aware of the few cases mentioned in the draft article. If there are dozens and dozens of cases, one could classify and describe types or cite paradigmatic cases. But if this is not a real phenomenon, how could there be dozens and dozens of cases?


 * Robert Stockman 15:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)